Anatomy of Failed Design: Exalted

[Omegonthesane]

Kickstarted RPG materials that go way over time and budget, drastically scale back their design specs, or even just fail to come out altogether are generally because of the usual kinds of crap that makes projects fall apart. Overambitious design goals, personality disputes, and key people getting real jobs.

Of course, with Kicksrarters put out by actual RPG companies, the more common issue is robbing peter to pay paul, as it were. I know that the Goblins card game failed for that reason. Kickstarter money earmarked for design and production is instead used for advertisement, basic operating expenses, and to pay for the completion of other kickstarted games that have gone over budget.

One very unfortunate problem with Kickstarter is that, once a company gets the money, they can spend it on anything that they want. There's no enforcement mechanism to make sure that any of the money goes towards tohe project.

To hear Thunt tell it, the Goblins card game failed because the guy running the project took the money and ran...

[Sakuya Izayoi]

Open season has been declared on discussing the leak in Purpleland

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?757 ... ed-version

Took all of one page before a mod started threatening to close the thread over "quibbling".

[Longes]

Open season has been declared on discussing the leak in Purpleland

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?757 ... ed-version

Took all of one page before a mod started threatening to close the thread over "quibbling".

There's been another leak? The last one I'm aware of was a complete 900-page manuscript in March. What was leaked now?

[Longes]

I think the moment I completely lost faith in Ex3 was when I read an argument between Jon Chung and one of the devs on rpg.net. The developers were defending their choice of keeping BP/XP separation, and exponential costs post-chargen.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Longes, are you exaggerating? Please tell me that they didn't really have a 900-page manuscript for the damn game. That exceeds the entire three core rulebooks of any D&D game.

[FatR]

I think the core three of 3.5 are longer than 900 pages when put together.

But you see, that leak was a 900-pages manuscript before adding art.

[Longes]

Longes, are you exaggerating? Please tell me that they didn't really have a 900-page manuscript for the damn game. That exceeds the entire three core rulebooks of any D&D game.

I'm dead serious. 949 pages of unformatted, art-less text, without index and table of contents.

[FatR]

Exalted should be redesigned from the ground up as a class and level system with an option for minor expansion abilities like feats and spells. That would solve a huge number (certainly not all, mind) of the game's problems instantly.

In other words, the one game that the d20 craze didn't touch was the one that needed it the most.

I've tried to write a d20 Exalted hack, but between my various existing commitments and addictions, and the fact that I was disappointed in the setting as well, to the point that any vision that could satisfy me hardly resembled the source material, it never got anywhere close to a presentable state. If I ever revisit it, it would be simper to just cut any ties with Exalted altogether and finish it as my own anime superhero pile of houserules game.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Ah, that's right. I forgot how fucking bloated the core books got going from 3.0E to 3.5E D&D. The Monster Manual went from 220 pages to 320; the DMG went from 256 to 320. What the fucking fuck?

[Longes]

I think the core three of 3.5 are longer than 900 pages when put together.

But you see, that leak was a 900-pages manuscript before adding art.

PHB + DMG + MM1 are 992 pages together, with covers, indexes and art. That's 50 more pages than Exalted, and that's much, much more content.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

Open season has been declared on discussing the leak in Purpleland

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?757 ... ed-version

Took all of one page before a mod started threatening to close the thread over "quibbling".

There's been another leak? The last one I'm aware of was a complete 900-page manuscript in March. What was leaked now?

It's the old leak, but they used to ban you for talking about the contents, IIRC.

We're playing a game off it at the moment, it really is a monster that puts phone books to shame and would break tables if dropped from a significant height. And a good portion of the pagecount is crunchless lore, and charm bloat.

Like that review says, there are over 50 Craft charms, and most of them just add successes on a certain number, or give you the ability to grind "craft XP" faster as if you were leveling a World of Warcraft skill. Probably the worst offender, but hardly the only one.

[Username17]

The Exalted 3e team were whining that six of the largest playtest files were leaked on 4chan. Implying that there's actually even more fucking text than that ridiculous 900 pages of word salad already encompasses. It is pithy to say that a design is perfect not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. But it's also insightful and in a lot of ways true. It sounds like they are well on their way to shitting out a book that's over three quarters of a million words - which is obscene and literally deserves a place on the "longest books ever written" wikipedia page. The criteria to get on the list of longest novels is to have over half a million words.


That's the manuscript for Miss Macintosh My Darling, and Exalted 3e will be longer than that if it actually comes out.

This is basically proof, if any was needed, that this project has gone completely insane. There's no possible reason to shit out that much wordcount into one book. You could just produce a small chunk of that as the book, and then come out with more books. Or you could do that, if you actually had any kind of design or project management at all. As is, there's no skeleton to prune down to. It's just a sea of bloat filled by the shovels of indifferent hacks and talentless zealots.

I've tried to write a d20 Exalted hack, but between my various existing commitments and addictions, and the fact that I was disappointed in the setting as well, to the point that any vision that could satisfy me hardly resembled the source material, it never got anywhere close to a presentable state. If I ever revisit it, it would be simper to just cut any ties with Exalted altogether and finish it as my own anime superhero pile of houserules game.

That is basically the problem. Exalted has a very good two minute pitch, and it makes me want there to be a good Exalted game so I could play it. Unfortunately, actual Exalted is terribad. It's fractally shitty, where every little part of it is as awful as the whole thing. Basically all I'd keep from Exalted is the two minute pitch. It's like Scion in that way: there isn't really a game or a world that has actually been designed in any cogent way, just a good pitch for a game. If you took that pitch to a competent group of writers and designers, I might care.

Scion is actually the one I'd most like to see redone from the foundations. The two minute pitch is really good, and if you didn't have fucking White Wolf idiots involved the setting basically writes itself. All the major characters are public fucking domain! All you need are some halfway playable mechanics and the game is fucking done. There is absolutely fucking nothing you get from the actual Scion books except the realization that the two minute pitch is a good one and someone really should have made such a game at some point.

-Username17

[hyzmarca]

Kickstarted RPG materials that go way over time and budget, drastically scale back their design specs, or even just fail to come out altogether are generally because of the usual kinds of crap that makes projects fall apart. Overambitious design goals, personality disputes, and key people getting real jobs.

Of course, with Kicksrarters put out by actual RPG companies, the more common issue is robbing peter to pay paul, as it were. I know that the Goblins card game failed for that reason. Kickstarter money earmarked for design and production is instead used for advertisement, basic operating expenses, and to pay for the completion of other kickstarted games that have gone over budget.

One very unfortunate problem with Kickstarter is that, once a company gets the money, they can spend it on anything that they want. There's no enforcement mechanism to make sure that any of the money goes towards tohe project.

To hear Thunt tell it, the Goblins card game failed because the guy running the project took the money and ran...

Evertide Games was a legitimate company that was legitimately making games. It had an office and permanent employees that had to be paid an actual salary and everything.

It wasn't just a matter of taking the money and running. It was a matter of spending the money on other things, like finishing up other kickstarted projects that were behind schedule, and then collapsing due to being utterly and completely broke.

Onyx Path is at an advantage there, as they're paying freelancers rather than salaried employees. As such, I don't see it collapsing any time soon

[angelfromanotherpin]

Basically all I'd keep from Exalted is the two minute pitch.

So, one time I was thinking about the World Tree-inspired project I'm very definitely probably not going to ever put any serious effort into, and I decided that something I'd probably do is get rid of the Ars Magica noun/verb magic skills and just have spells be related to the relevant normal skills. And then I realized that was very conceptually similar to Exalted's Charms and I re-examined my life decisions.

But while the details of the Exalted Charm system are a well-documented clusterfuck, I think a skill-based system where a person uses Medicine to cast healing spells and Melee to cast weeaboo fightan moves (and so on) definitely both appeal and potential.

[Username17]

Basically all I'd keep from Exalted is the two minute pitch.

So, one time I was thinking about the World Tree-inspired project I'm very definitely probably not going to ever put any serious effort into, and I decided that something I'd probably do is get rid of the Ars Magica noun/verb magic skills and just have spells be related to the relevant normal skills. And then I realized that was very conceptually similar to Exalted's Charms and I re-examined my life decisions.

But while the details of the Exalted Charm system are a well-documented clusterfuck, I think a skill-based system where a person uses Medicine to cast healing spells and Melee to cast weeaboo fightan moves (and so on) definitely both appeal and potential.

Indeed, that's pretty much the direction I went with After Sundown.

In a Skill Based System you can either have a "cast magic skill" and accept that that is the best skill, or you can have magic using the other skills that are already on your character sheet for whatever reason. There isn't much other design space possible.

-Username17

[Longes]

The Exalted 3e team were whining that six of the largest playtest files were leaked on 4chan. Implying that there's actually even more fucking text than that ridiculous 900 pages of word salad already encompasses. It is pithy to say that a design is perfect not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. But it's also insightful and in a lot of ways true. It sounds like they are well on their way to shitting out a book that's over three quarters of a million words - which is obscene and literally deserves a place on the "longest books ever written" wikipedia page. The criteria to get on the list of longest novels is to have over half a million words.

-Username17

One of the key problems for Exalted page bloat is the Charm system. Charms are tiny spells of which you have about ten at chargen which give you various bonuses and abilities. Solar Charms take 364 pages.

Eye-Deceiving Camouflage
Cost: 6m; Mins: Survival 5, Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: None
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Traceless Passage
With this Charm, the Solar can camouflage herself or an object (Essence + 1) yards wide so perfectly that they cannot be detected by mundane senses while immobile. Even the acute senses of a claw strider or other famed hunting beasts will fail to detect the Exalt (or her shelter, or her hidden cache of food, etc). Preparing this camouflage takes the Solar an hour. The player rolls (Intelligence + Survival) and records the successes, rerolling all non-successes a single time and all 1s until 1s fail to appear. These successes directly counter any magical Awareness-based attempts to pierce the Lawgiver’s camouflaging efforts.

This is a charm that allows you to spend one hour to become perfectly camoflaged against mundane search attempts and get minor bonus against magic search attempts. This is one of the short charms. Some charms are page-long.

This charm makes you invisible, unless someone spends a willpower point:

Mental Invisibility Technique
Cost: 5m, 1wp; Mins: Stealth 4, Essence 2; Type: Simple
Keywords: Mute
Duration: One scene
Prerequisite Charms: Easily-Overlooked Presence Method
The surreptitious Exalt may even hide in the spaces between thoughts. Roll the Exalt’s (Dexterity + Stealth) against her subject’s Resolve. On a success, she vanishes from her subject’s notice, and cannot be perceived. This effect applies to every witness whose Resolve is surpassed by the Solar’s skill.
Not even overt action can reveal the Exalt to those affected by Mental Invisibility Technique. The Lawgiver may step out of her coat in a snowstorm or leap to the rooftops from the street without being noticed. However, rolling Join Battle or taking violent action ends this Charm’s effects.
Additionally, subjects may spend one Willpower to break free of the Solar’s deception if the Exalt’s presence is pointed out to him, the Solar intentionally reveals herself to him, or the Exalt attempts to harm or steal something he values at the level of a Major or Defining Intimacy.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Buddha fuck. 900 pages? Unfuckingbelievable.

[Ice9]

I was reading the thread about the leaked document, and some of the decisions are ... puzzling.

"People said there were too many charms to keep track of. 'Fewer charms that do more each' was mentioned to general acclaim. So obviously, we should make even more charms that do less individually, but you can combine more of them at once."

"Five craft skills was too many. Instead, an arbitrarily large number of craft skills! And a grindy minigame that takes place on a meta-level to use them!"

Like, these aren't even things that are stupid but widely requested. Nobody wanted them. So who thought it was a good idea to include them and why?

Also, I hadn't really been following Ex3, so this is the first I heard that they're entirely ditching the "the game rules are actual things in the setting" idea, in favor of a more 4E/13A approach. Surprising, because I thought that was Exalted's thing, but I guess not.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Like, these aren't even things that are stupid but widely requested. Who thought it was a good idea to include them and why?

Is this one of the Onyx Path situations where fanboys are being paid negative money to write their own fetishes into the text? That would explain the bloat and the bullshit.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Damn, Exalted 3E wastes space even worse than 4E D&D. Hang on for a second:

Eye-Deceiving Camouflage
Cost: 6m; Mins: Survival 5, Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: None
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Traceless Passage
With this Charm, the Solar can camouflage herself or an object (Essence + 1) yards wide so perfectly that they cannot be detected by mundane senses while immobile. Even the acute senses of a claw strider or other famed hunting beasts will fail to detect the Exalt (or her shelter, or her hidden cache of food, etc). Preparing this camouflage takes the Solar an hour. The player rolls (Intelligence + Survival) and records the successes, rerolling all non-successes a single time and all 1s until 1s fail to appear. These successes directly counter any magical Awareness-based attempts to pierce the Lawgiver’s camouflaging efforts.

Eye-Deceiving Camouflage
Cost: 6m 1hr; Mins: Survival 5, Essence 3; Type: Simple
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Traceless Passage
The user can camouflage herself or an object (Essence + 1) yards. Roll (Intelligence + Survival), rerolling all non-successes a single time and all 1s until 1s fail to appear. These successes form the Difficulty Class for Awareness checks. Mundane Awareness-based attempts automatically fail against this charm.

[Gobbeldygook]

The Exalted 3e team were whining that six of the largest playtest files were leaked on 4chan. Implying that there's actually even more fucking text than that ridiculous 900 pages of word salad already encompasses. It is pithy to say that a design is perfect not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. But it's also insightful and in a lot of ways true. It sounds like they are well on their way to shitting out a book that's over three quarters of a million words - which is obscene and literally deserves a place on the "longest books ever written" wikipedia page. The criteria to get on the list of longest novels is to have over half a million words.

That's 949 pages of single-column 12-point font. Word count on Exalted 3e leak is 431,140 words, so it's not quite long enough to make the list. It's only in the ballpark of the first four Harry Potter novels put together.

They had to make room for, for example:

Celestial Bliss Trick
Cost: 3m, 1wp; Mins: Performance 4, Essence 1; Type: Simple
Keywords: Mute
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Thousand Courtesan Ways
The Exalt performs the body-mudra of sighs and whispers upon a lover, unleashing a torrent of unimaginable ecstasy. This intense lovemaking lasts at least three minutes, inducing a worldshaking climax in her partner. In the afterglow, the Exalt becomes the object of a temporary Defining Tie of lust that lasts for (Essence) weeks, and gains (Essence) automatic successes to social influence actions targeting her lover for the rest of the scene.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Exalted has been doing that kind of thing for quite some time now.

Joy in Ownership
Cost: 20m, 2wp
Mins: Martial Arts 5, Essence 5
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: Combo-OK, Illusion, Servitude, Touch
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Silken Rope Trick, Someone Else’s Consequence
She could not recall when or where she had acquired such fetters.

The martial artist gently touches a target she has rendered unconscious during the scene, manipulating the flow of his Essence through the chakra points known as the gates of desire. Upon awakening, the target gains a second Motivation to “Love and obey (the martial artist).” Her memories are also altered so that she believes the martial artist is an old friend or lover (whichever is appropriate to her normal sexual preferences). Memories that might contradict this belief are suppressed.
Resisting this unnatural mental influence requires that the target spend three Willpower within the space of a scene, over a number of scenes equal to (10 – target’s Essence). While Joy in Ownership remains in effect, the target is metaphysically considered to be the martial artist’s property.

[RadiantPhoenix]

The Machinery's Handbook is 2500 pages and only 2.5 inches thick.

If you're willing to print on delicate paper and leave the doritos elsewhere, you can fit a lot of words into a small volume.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Another review of the Ex3 leak on the big purple:

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?757 ... egal-Booty

I backed it and hope to god that I can make some money back selling the books on ebay.

[OgreBattle]

Is Exalted even a game you'd want to do with dicepools? With all the godly beings about having people go off the RNG of a d20 is a feature and not a bug.

what kind of ability should be covered by charms and not the basic skill system