Magic as a D&D Edition Setting

[zugschef]

I did a bit of a research for the specific class names. Since berserker and wizard seem to be the logical first supplemental classes, I've added them to the table.

W and U lack shamans, and it's really hard to come up with anything descriptive for both colors. But since the mystic and the spellshaper are pretty odd base class names, I decided to throw both into the shaman mix. Mystics exist as mystics, clerics, druids, wizards, shaman and artificer and are mostly white and often nomadic. Thus, I reasoned that white mystics are shamans. A lot of spellshapers are blue and there are only four blue shamans total who all have the word shaman in their name. Looking at the abilities I really can't see anything that would distinguish spellshapers from shamans (or druids or wizards...). Thus, I reasoned that blue spellshapers are shamans.

Blue clerics are in short supply, too. There are four heretics in the game and two of them are blue. Also, blue is known for being rational, industrial, scientific, etc.. It just makes sense to me that blue would have heretics. But I looked for an alternative: There exists a white cleric prophet and two blue wizard prophets. A lot of the blue wizards are seers which is close enough to the word prophet (which is a much better clerical term), I decided to include it, too.

Since almost all druids are green, I think that it doesn't make any sense to have a druid base class. For me, the druid is either a green cleric, shaman or wizard; I simply can't decide which one.

What I see as somewhat of a problem is that the 'mancers and mages are scattered between cleric, shaman and wizard. But there is an assload of red shamanic pyromancers and there are actually three red embermage wizards. forcemages are almost exclusively green shamans and the necromancer is only fitting for the black cleric or wizard.

Color	Knight	Berserker	Scout	Rogue	Archer	Cleric	Shaman	Wizard	Artificer
W	Paladin	Zealot	Vanguard	Duelist (Dodger) (Herald)	Sagittar, Sniper, Stalker	Sanctifier	Mystic	Auramancer, Shieldmage, Weaver	Archeologist, Artisan, Blacksmith, Forger, Metallurgon, Sculptor, Splicer
U	Hussar	Thrasher	Explorer	Spy (Ninja)	Sniper Harpoonist	Prophet (Heretic) (Oracle) (Priest)	Oracle Spellshaper	Adept (Archivist) (Seer) (Sorcerer)	Architect, Engineer, Machinist, Mechanist, Sculptor
B	Scourge (Blackguard)	Marauder (Freak) Reaver	Blackguard (Outlander) (Trailblazer) (Bounty Hunter)	Assassin (Ninja) (Outlaw)	Bounty Hunter	Necromancer (Occultist)	Diabolist (Witch)	Witch (Necromancer)	Painsmith, Plaguer
R	Dragoon	Striker (Marauder) (Reaver)	Raider (Mountaineer) (Outlander)	Bandit (Outlaw) (Racketeer) (Vandal)	Exterminator (Artillerist) (Sharpshooter)	Heretic (Blood Witch) Exarch	Fulminator (Cremator) (Invoker) (Pyromancer) (Soothsayer) Initiate of Blood	Embermage, Invoker, Pyromancer, Task Mage	Artisan, Blacksmith, Engineer, Machinist, Mechanic, Tinkerer, Welder
G	Warden (Beastrider) (Guardian) (Sentinel) (Steward)	Savage (Brute) (Mauler) (Scrapper) (Werebear)	Ranger	Bard	Fletcher, Sagittar, Stalker, Trophy Hunter	Druid (Guardian) (Hierarch) (Hierophant) (Keeper) (Warden)	Channeler (Druid) (Forcemage)	Enchantress (Biomancer) (Druid) (Might Weaver)	Forger, Gardener, Splicer

Explanation: consensus; multiples; never; (outdated); (my) preferred; shaky

[edit] Updated table

[Username17]

It would be better if you put some carriage returns in some of the alternate titles. It would improve readability and let things fit on the page.

As for Spell Shapers specifically, that's a weird one. What they are is someone who can transform a card into a common spell. So among the Black Spell Shapers, one lets you discard a card to cast Dark Ritual, while another lets you discard a card to cast Howl From Beyond. Among the Green Spell Shapers, one lets you discard a card to cast Fog and another lets you discard a card to cast Llanowar Elves. Basically they are poster children for 3.5 D&D style Divine Spontaneous Casting. Dump a prepared spell at any time to cast your Shape Spell. They have no special affinity for Blue. There are 56 Spell Shapers, and 11 of them are Blue. There are literally exactly the same number of Red, Black, and Green Spell Shapers, and there's only one less White Spell Shaper (10). There are also two colorless Spell Shapers.

Now as for Red and Blue and Heretics: both have a pretty good claim on that title. Yes, Red doesn't literally have many cards that are named "Heretic", but they have people like the Mad Prophet who are "heretics" in the classic sense even though they lack the specific title. Exarchs is definitely not the title for Red Clerics, because the Exarchs are a group of Clerics who come one per color and each show off a color related trick when they come into play. Technically, the most common title for a Red Cleric is "Blood Witch", but for obvious reasons I don't think that is going to fly. Probably Red is going to get stuck with a title like "Apostate" or something.

-Username17

[zugschef]

It would be better if you put some carriage returns in some of the alternate titles. It would improve readability and let things fit on the page.

Already done.

As for Spell Shapers specifically, that's a weird one. What they are is someone who can transform a card into a common spell. So among the Black Spell Shapers, one lets you discard a card to cast Dark Ritual, while another lets you discard a card to cast Howl From Beyond. Among the Green Spell Shapers, one lets you discard a card to cast Fog and another lets you discard a card to cast Llanowar Elves. Basically they are poster children for 3.5 D&D style Divine Spontaneous Casting. Dump a prepared spell at any time to cast your Shape Spell. They have no special affinity for Blue. There are 56 Spell Shapers, and 11 of them are Blue. There are literally exactly the same number of Red, Black, and Green Spell Shapers, and there's only one less White Spell Shaper (10). There are also two colorless Spell Shapers.

Hm... You're right. Now what to do with the blue shaman?

Now as for Red and Blue and Heretics: both have a pretty good claim on that title. Yes, Red doesn't literally have many cards that are named "Heretic", but they have people like the Mad Prophet who are "heretics" in the classic sense even though they lack the specific title. Exarchs is definitely not the title for Red Clerics, because the Exarchs are a group of Clerics who come one per color and each show off a color related trick when they come into play. Technically, the most common title for a Red Cleric is "Blood Witch", but for obvious reasons I don't think that is going to fly. Probably Red is going to get stuck with a title like "Apostate" or something.

Well, you can make the Heretic red and the blue cleric a Prophet. *shrug*

* * *

What I don't like are my berserker names for U and G. The green version should either be a were-something or simply get bigger and nastier when angry. As for the blue berserker, I've honestly got no original idea for that one.

[Almaz]

Some notes about possible effects for our Diabolists (black shamans):

In general, the "Black Shaman" role tends to make things worse for its enemies while making it better for you. It has conditional penalties on the enemy, as well, or conditional benefits for things getting worse. Like lots of Black cards, they often have sacrificial or self-sacrificial effects, especially to bring a heavyweight on the table. And they are quite fond of demons.

So, since the Shaman was discussed as the "mana accumulator" class, with a mana burn mechanic to prevent pre-charging batteries too much during downtime, she might generate mana faster if things die on the field, or the shaman herself takes damage, and use that to chunk out large Demons (and sometimes other monsters, but not "token hordes") as her primary event. These demons themselves can be kept around for fighting, or themselves sacrificed for a big "bang" effect. Wooby-jooby lifedrain streams from enemies are also always appropriate, since you're a Black Shaman. For fluff, Black Shamans also seem to be very fond of haruspicy as well as collecting the bones of their enemies for strength, and we can give them some downtime effects that let them gain insight into stuff by killing people, or make jewelry out of dragon teeth that gives beneficial effects.

[Red_Rob]

Hmmm. Looking over those class names I noticed the following:

Blackguard in Magic means Rogue, not Knight. As 16 out of the 32 Black Knights in Magic are some form of undead I'd go with Death Knight instead.

I like Beastrider for the Green Knight. Wardens and Guardians tend to be White.

The Blue Berserker is a problem. Berserking is kind of thematically opposed to Blue's themes of logic and intelligence. Looking further afield I get Tidal Warrior, Dream Fighter or Coral Fighter?

Scout and Rogue all look fine, although Raider and Bandit are practically synonyms. Possibly Vandal or Arsonist for the Red Rogue.

I like the solution of having Druid be a green subclass rather than a base class. I think it should be a Cleric, as Green has the least of these.

Pyromancer and Embermage are too similar and would end up being too close conceptually I think. Pyromancer sounds more wizardly, so I'd change the Shaman to something else. You could go for Rockspeaker, Fulminator, Soulstoker, Stoneshaker or Stonewright to fit the abilities you wanted to give the class.

For the Green Shaman I don't like Forcemage for including Mage - it sounds too wizardly to me. Names that jump out at me are Animist, Master of the Wild Hunt, Channeler, Skinshifter, Preserver, Summoner or Beastmaster. It depends on what we want the class to do. Biomancer I like for the Green Wizard. For the Blue Shaman all the card names have Shaman in the title. Reef Shaman or Brine Shaman are the top contenders. Possibly Alchemist, Brine Seer, or Frostwaker would do?

[zugschef]

Hmmm. Looking over those class names I noticed the following:

Blackguard in Magic means Rogue, not Knight. As 16 out of the 32 Black Knights in Magic are some form of undead I'd go with Death Knight instead.

Hm... We could use the word knight, but I'd rather not include the base class name in the kit name. They are pretty much all Anti-Paladins or Black Crusaders, and since this is Magic as a DnD setting, I'd go with Blackguard even if Magic uses it for two rogues.

The Blue Berserker is a problem. Berserking is kind of thematically opposed to Blue's themes of logic and intelligence. Looking further afield I get Tidal Warrior, Dream Fighter or Coral Fighter?

What about the Wake Thrasher?

Scout and Rogue all look fine, although Raider and Bandit are practically synonyms. Possibly Vandal or Arsonist for the Red Rogue.

Most Bandits are rogues and most Raiders warrior types. That's why i chose these names.

I like the solution of having Druid be a green subclass rather than a base class. I think it should be a Cleric, as Green has the least of these.
[...]
For the Green Shaman I don't like Forcemage for including Mage - it sounds too wizardly to me. Names that jump out at me are Animist, Master of the Wild Hunt, Channeler, Skinshifter, Preserver, Summoner or Beastmaster. It depends on what we want the class to do.

That's a valid argument (I thought of that too), but since Druids cover so much ground (they can even be as wizardly as Enchantresses), I'd rather put them in as shamans. The Hierophant is exclusively green, which is why I like him as the green cleric.

Pyromancer and Embermage are too similar and would end up being too close conceptually I think. Pyromancer sounds more wizardly, so I'd change the Shaman to something else. You could go for Rockspeaker, Fulminator, Soulstoker, Stoneshaker or Stonewright to fit the abilities you wanted to give the class.

Well, it was said that the shaman should be the blaster, if there is one, and the Pyromancers are evenly split between shaman and wizard.

For the Blue Shaman all the card names have Shaman in the title. Reef Shaman or Brine Shaman are the top contenders.

See Blackguard. But how do you like Oracle?

[Almaz]

Might I suggest Task Mage for a Red Wizard?

As far as "blasters" go, Red is always going to be more "blasty" than any other color since if there is one unifying theme of Red, it is setting shit on fire. Lots of fire. Direct damage is Red's "thing." We should expect pretty much every Red class to have potential access to DD/"blast" effects, because they will probably all be setting things on fire some way, and as a result the differentiation is not going to be premised on "do they have DD or not?" but how they accomplish that, and what other things they can do.

Kind of like how knights are probably all going to stab things in some way.

[zugschef]

Might I suggest Task Mage for a Red Wizard?

First off, it's a spellshaper, secondly it's a legend.

There are three Embermages who are all red and wizards, alternatively there are two red wizards called Sparkmages, but there's also a Sparkmage shaman. A lot of the red Mages are shamans. The Pyromancers are evenly split among shaman and wizard. I don't know, it's a bit of a problem, shaman and wizard do seem to be totally interchangeable for Red.

[Almaz]

Might I suggest Task Mage for a Red Wizard?

First off, it's a spellshaper, secondly it's a legend.

I fail to see a bloody point.

"Task mage" was a thing people were in the Ice Age, enough so that you could get a lot together if you needed something on fire. Jaya Ballard just happens to be the most notable of them. She's listed as a Spell Shaper because her main quirk was that she was quoted on a bunch of spells - thus, they gave her the ability to cast a lot of those spells, which made her a Spell Shaper, because she was "casting" spells already extant in Magic. Which will probably be a thing Wizards in our game do.

It's a solid name, it has resonance with the game history, it gets away from being overly fire associated (even if, as we noted, Taskmages tend to set shit on fire), and has great thematics for Red.

Finally, if we aren't allowed to reference things that Legends had or were in the game, then we might as well close shop and go home, since there is no bloody point in using the Magic setting unless we include the things that Legends are.

[zugschef]

Now what exactly are the differences between (clerics,) shamans and wizards? Maybe outlining these helps in this regard.

[Almaz]

Clerics have a magic resource system of drawing a pool of mana and reactions (interrupts?) every round. Shamans have a magic resource system of mana charge-and-blow system that can accumulate over rounds. Wizards have a magic resource system of drawing and sorting through a selection of actual spell cards every round.

That's it!

Based on glances at Magic cards and what we've established so far, shamans seem to have a predilection for divination and destruction, clerics seem to be fond of effects that put token monsters on the field or protect, restore, and boost allies, and wizards seem to be fond of random bullshit like manipulating things on the battlefield by freezing them or messing with their mind or locking out abilities (forcing card discards). You could make a noise about this being "controller"-like if you want, I guess?

I overwhelmingly recommend Druid and Necromancer for clerics of Green and Black, as a result. Not least because when hierophants appear they're usually druids, but also because those are usually associated (both in Magic and elsewhere) with swarm-lords. And we had something approaching consensus on the Black magic-user names in the first place.

In addition, the cleric mana solution and the shaman mana solution are most amenable for summons that are supposed to remain on a round-by-round basis while still retaining balance. Technically so is the Knight one, but, I digress. If a wizard draws a lasting summon, it is massively more powerful if it is drawn on round 1 versus round 3. This discourages us putting in "summons" that are not relatively Final Fantasy-esque summons. Clerics and shamans, meanwhile, can have summons balanced by having them incur turn by turn costs. A player will have to decide if she wants to put out a summon (costing most of their mana this round, and also mana from each successive round) or do more other stuff. As an example.

As creature cards producing secondary summons is a _thing_ in Magic, one that we will want to and ought to include, I strongly recommend we try to reserve it primarily for those classes on which it is a more balance-able mechanic.

[Username17]

The word Blackguard is pronounced "Blaggard" and basically means the same thing as "Villain". It's an old timey word used to describe someone despicable. It could as validly mean a rogue in light armor as it could a scoundrel in any other kind of armor. It's also a Canadian Metal Band. Warning: listening to Blackguard on youtube will have Youtube start suggesting that you listen to Dragonforce.

Anyway, "Villain" is actually a fine Black Knight name. Even though the only thing that is actually a "Summon Villain" is a Red Creature named the Spinal Villain. Because that's weird and old and obscure and no one cares (and it got errataed to be a "Beast" in any case).

I would support making the Druid be a a Green Cleric. It leaves open names like "Enchanter" for Green Wizard and "Channeler" for Green Shaman.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

Warning: listening to Blackguard on youtube will have Youtube start suggesting that you listen to Dragonforce.

But that's a good thing.

[zugschef]

All right, we seem to have a consensus on the Druid being the green cleric and the Necromancer being the black cleric. Also, Channeler and Enchantress seem to be the logical choices for the green shaman and wizard, respectively. I've also pinned down the Mystic as the white shaman.

Now what I'd like to do is finish the knight column: There's only the green knight left and from what I've read so far, it's a head to head between the Beastrider and the Warden (Guardian and Sentinel, don't sound so G-specific). What I like about the Warden is its connotation as a keeper of the forest, but it's what I don't like about it at the same time, because we already have the Ranger as the green scout. Beastrider, on the other hand, seems to be a bit too feral for a knight, but seems to be a pretty iconic title for Green and two of the other four classes already include the mount in their name (Hussar and Dragoon). I'd personally go with the Beastrider to have a little diversity.

[Username17]

I would go with Warden for Green Knight. On the following grounds:

• It is not a Compound Word.
• Warden is already a 4th edition D&D Class, where it is like a nature-warrior dude. It tested pretty well in that context.
• The term isn't really used to mean anything particular on Magic cards and can be appropriated for anything.

-Username17

[zugschef]

I would go with Warden for Green Knight.
[...]
It is not a Compound Word.

Ah yes, that was one of my thoughts, too. Unless someone is particularly displeased with the Warden as the green knight, I'll pin it down.

The word Blackguard is pronounced "Blaggard" and basically means the same thing as "Villain". It's an old timey word used to describe someone despicable. It could as validly mean a rogue in light armor as it could a scoundrel in any other kind of armor. It's also a Canadian Metal Band. Warning: listening to Blackguard on youtube will have Youtube start suggesting that you listen to Dragonforce.

Anyway, "Villain" is actually a fine Black Knight name. Even though the only thing that is actually a "Summon Villain" is a Red Creature named the Spinal Villain. Because that's weird and old and obscure and no one cares (and it got errataed to be a "Beast" in any case).

There isn't any other good single word for the black knight, anyway. It's either Anti Eastern/Western Paladin, Death Black/Skulking Knight of Dusk/Infamy, Phyrexian/Stromgald Crusader or Shadow Rider. First off, all of them are compound words and secondly Anti or Black X is boring (Blackguard doesn't count because it is a word you can look up in a dictionary). Also, if you include the base class name in the kit name, you have to seriously justify why you don't do it for every color. I'd really avoid that at all costs.

[edit] Hm... What about Scourge, though?

Based on glances at Magic cards and what we've established so far, shamans seem to have a predilection for divination and destruction, clerics seem to be fond of effects that put token monsters on the field or protect, restore, and boost allies, and wizards seem to be fond of random bullshit like manipulating things on the battlefield by freezing them or messing with their mind or locking out abilities (forcing card discards). You could make a noise about this being "controller"-like if you want, I guess?

I really like that explanation. Thanks. It also makes the Prophet and Oracle good names for the blue cleric and shaman, respectively. A Prophet has a way with people by motivation (or persuasion) and the Oracle is the word for a diviner which is fitting for Blue.

[Red_Rob]

The word Blackguard is pronounced "Blaggard" and basically means the same thing as "Villain".

That may be true, but as it only appears on Rogues on Magic cards and never as a Knight it seems to me odd to use it for a Knight class in a Magic RPG.

There isn't any other good single word for the black knight, anyway. It's either Anti Eastern/Western Paladin, Death Black/Skulking Knight of Dusk/Infamy, Phyrexian/Stromgald Crusader or Shadow Rider.

Bounty Hunter isn't a single word either and that's fine as a class name. Shadowrider or Duskrider could be compounded pretty easily if you're that bothered.

[zugschef]

Bounty Hunter isn't a single word either and that's fine as a class name.

That's a bad argument, though, since bounty hunter is a term you can look up in a dictionary. Right now I'm leaning heavily towards the Scourge.

[Username17]

I agree that "Bounty Hunter" doesn't count as a compound class name because it's a single dictionary entry. It's not as much of an idiom as "Blackguard", but it's pretty close. That being said, the Bounty Hunter in Magic is a Black Archer, and since there would eventually be an Archer base class, and the Bounty Hunter is literally the only Black Archer in the game who isn't a Legend named "Some Dude's Name", it seems fitting to save it for that.

However, I would shorten "Wake Thrasher" to "Thrasher".

Scourge is fine. Most "Scourges" are actually Red, but they don't have "Scourge" as a job title, they are like Scourge of X, where they are a big flaming beast that wrecks shit around X. The people who actually have "Scourge" as a job appear to be Black.

-Username17

[zugschef]

I agree that "Bounty Hunter" doesn't count as a compound class name because it's a single dictionary entry. It's not as much of an idiom as "Blackguard", but it's pretty close. That being said, the Bounty Hunter in Magic is a Black Archer, and since there would eventually be an Archer base class, and the Bounty Hunter is literally the only Black Archer in the game who isn't a Legend named "Some Dude's Name", it seems fitting to save it for that.

You really want to have an Archer base class? That's like having a Swordguy base class. First off, Archer is a horrible class name and secondly the Bounty Hunter should be an Assassin and not an Archer, anyway. Archers deal damage and don't kill creatures right out; that's what Assassins do. But under the condition that we preserve the Bounty Hunter, how would you call the black scout? Outlander and Trailblazer both don't sound very black-ish. To add some competition I've inserted the Blackguard to the choices for the black scout.

Gotta say that I rather like Bounty Hunter and Marauder for Black; reminds me of Star Wars. However, there are as many red Marauders as black ones. Although Reavers are almost exclusively black, I actually like them more for Red, because in Dragon Age the Reaver is more of a red class (mountain and dragon flavour).

However, I would shorten "Wake Thrasher" to "Thrasher".
[...]
Scourge is fine. Most "Scourges" are actually Red, but they don't have "Scourge" as a job title, they are like Scourge of X, where they are a big flaming beast that wrecks shit around X. The people who actually have "Scourge" as a job appear to be Black.

Done.

[Username17]

You really want to have an Archer base class?

Ultimately yes. First of all, there are archers of every color. Secondly, in the Might and Magic games, "Archer" is the name of the caster hybrid that is to the Sorcerer in the same way that the Paladin is to the Cleric.

Now I know that Dominaria or Mirrodin is not the same as Erathia or VARN, but I think it's important nevertheless. Because the Might and Magic "Archer" class caused zero butt hurt. I don't know why, but for whatever reason people seem to get much less pissy about "bow magic" than they do about "sword magic". Throw down a Warblade and the neckbeards are all shitting themselves about weeaboo fightan magik getting in their braces, but if you bring out an Arcane Archer, exactly zero fucks are given.

For whatever reason, you can just make the "Archer" class be a half caster and noone seems to care. And in Magic Land, Archer characters (as opposed to Archer military units) do seem to be fairly magic:



-Username17

[zugschef]

And in Magic Land, Archer characters (as opposed to Archer military units) do seem to be fairly magic:

Ok, this convinced me. I've added the Archer just before the Cleric in the table.

[Sigil]

Minor quibble, I think using 'Hunter' in the title for two different colored archers is a little repetitive. I like Bounty Hunter better than trophy hunter, so maybe we could borrow a green name from one of the other classes we won't be using for the green archer, maybe Sentinel?

[zugschef]

Minor quibble, I think using 'Hunter' in the title for two different colored archers is a little repetitive. I like Bounty Hunter better than trophy hunter, so maybe we could borrow a green name from one of the other classes we won't be using for the green archer, maybe Sentinel?

That's why I didn't mark the Trophy Hunter as consensus. Sentinel, though, sucks as a name for the Archer class. It's got nothing to do with archery or ranged combat, it's actually a synonym for the word guard. Maybe we could go with Fletcher?

[Sigil]

Perhaps we could use the term Forester, or if you don't like Forester for the green archer gets to be the Ranger, and the green scout becomes the Forester.

Then again, even though green is associated with forests, Forester may be too specific for the same reason Mountaneer isn't blue.