The Shadowrun Situation

[Otakusensei]

Critias,

If you think it's easy to ignore angry people you're missing the point. I find it much easier to ignore those posts by people who are spending the majority of their effort to keep things civil. I don't have time to sample waffling, I want some fucking meat.

If I see someone drop a steaming pile of super charged vitriol in a forum it tells me one thing. This guy cares. It also takes me a much shorter time to see if he is able to communicate clearly and if he is talking out of his ass than if he's carefully hedging every word and every post. The joy of this board as opposed to DS is that he doesn't have a mod swinging in to stamp out any useful conversation.

Isn't it more important that the things that we feel passionate about get said, get said loudly and are commented upon? Why should we bother with subtlety and nuance beyond those needed to clearly communicate? Are we all so sensitive that we have to have topics spoon fed to us?

Sure it's not always appropriate to call someone a fucktard. But if you're being a fucktard, I'm gonna call you a fucktard. If it turns out you in fact are not a fucktard, then I expect you to present evidence to the contrary. Just like you should expect me to present my evidence for calling you a fucktard to begin with. We don't need some rule of conversational impotence keeping us in check. After all, we're all adults here. And many of us are fucktards.

[Whipstitch]

Raben, I'd stress that people shouldn't take the generalizations that are made for rhetorical convenience here too personally. It's a given that when talking about a community that some statements will apply to some members more than others or may not even apply at all to certain individuals, and that goes double when talking about things as fluid as an internet forum. If you're just Joe Random Dumpshocker who doesn't really post other than to ask about house rules or tell a story about your last session than I think it's for the best if you just assume that nobody here thinks you'd personally fellate Loren Coleman if given the opportunity. If you read something and you think "Hey, that doesn't really apply to me at all!" then maybe you should just go ahead and believe that it doesn't apply to you. For example, if someone wants to conflate my attitudes with Bull or whoever I just remember that I'm not Bull. It's that easy.


Edited twice because I apparently can't spell. At all.

[Critias]

Critias,

If you think it's easy to ignore angry people you're missing the point.

If you think being angry is the only way to be passionate, I think you're missing the point.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's how the world is -- you do get more flies with honey than vinegar. Ranting, raving, insulting someone's religion, and slinging personal mud at individuals instead of at an individuals work, those are all ways to not really be heard. Whether it shows passion or not, whether it shows that you care or not, it's a way to not be taken seriously. Period.

It's all fine and dandy for a small community like this to communicate with one another that way. I've been in similar small communities on-line, we've all got buddies whose balls we bust in real life, etc, etc. But when supposedly impartial product reviews are posted with the same spite and vitriol, the noise:signal ratio gets cocked up, is all I'm saying. And when the same spite and vitriol gets spilled over onto other boards, where it's known in advance that the ToS discourages that sort of thing, you shouldn't be surprised when it gets stamped out.

And the downside, there -- and I say this because it's a downside for the whole product being reviewed, the whole community, the writers, the developers, and the angry, angry critic -- is that when it gets stamped out, or when the vitriol overwhelms the message (or just appears to overwhelm the message), then the message gets totally fucking lost.

If you criticize Shadowrun line developers for not putting out timely errata, that's one thing. It's a fan showing concern for the game and clearly expressing a desire to see existing material get patched. In an ideal world, someone expressing that desire, and several other fans agreeing with it, could lead to a writer being tasked with assembling some errata, a web designer with working on hosting it, and ta-da, eventually everyone wins.

But when the comment is -- and this is an absurd extremity, chosen for purposes of making an example -- something like "they're more worried with shitting out more shitty product full of shit shittily-shit-shit than they are giving us errata on their old shitty products, and Jason Hardy worships a shitty God in a shitty way and Mormons are shitty, too," or something fucking ridiculous like that...well, do you really still think they're going to pay attention to what you're saying? Do you think anyone is focusing on the word "errata" in comment like that one?

There reaches a point where folks come off as just the angry guy frothing at a political rally, instead of still being seen as someone with a vote worth appealing to.

Like it or not, man, eventually the screeching overwhelms whatever point you're out to make. I wish it didn't, and I wish it wouldn't, because I readily admit (both in public and in private) that sometimes the "haters" have valid points...but it does. Some of y'all make yourselves really, really, easy to dismiss.

[Josh_Kablack]

If you think being angry is the only way to be passionate, I think you're missing the point.

Well, this discussion is happening on the internet....

[Ancient History]

Well Critias, you're wrong. Anger is a really great way to be heard. It is the great tool that the oppressed have used for generations when they need something to fight with - because it is infectious, because it can carry, and because people that try to be quiet and civil get drowned fucking out and ignored. Shouting works because you drown out the quiet shitbag in the suit, because sheer volume does carry a message all of its own, and that is something that carries with people. Polite protests only work to enact change when there is a huge, tremendous amount of anger behind them and driving them and sustaining them.

See, nobody here can stop CGL from producing a shitty product: even if I went and broke Jason Hardy's fingers with a hammer, he could still hit the enter key with his dick and accept a draft from you, or crimsondude, or Brandy, or David Go-Fuck-Yourself-If-You're-Reading-This Hill, or Bull, or anyone else. We can't stop them from selling it. All we can do is try and get across to people that they should top buying it, and maybe, just maybe, get across to the people writing it that they're doing something wrong and they should fucking fix it.

Now, there are more polite ways to do this. Civil, even. You can be angry and polite at the same time, you can be angry and civil at the same time: that's when you're most dangerous, because you wait for one little mistake and you punish them for it. Again, and again, and again, until people are sick of it, because when they're sick and angry of it too maybe they'll goddamned do something about it. Angry is good, angry gets things done, and people need somewhere they can express their anger and they need a place to vent that anger - and that's not the official forums, and that's not Dumpshock anymore, and that's not RPG.net. It's right here.

[Chamomile]

Do you think anyone is focusing on the word "errata" in comment like that one?

Amen. You can't throw inflammatory words like "with" into a comment and expect anyone to pay attention to anything else.

[Quantumboost]

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's how the world is -- you do get more flies with honey than vinegar.

[Kaelik]

So Crit, are you a Mormon, or just an idiot? Because you are upset about insulting people's religion, but the only time anyone has insulted someone's religion is when that religion is germane to the problem. Nobody is talking about how fucking stupid it is to believe that Jesus showed up in America, because that's irrelevant, but the fact that Mormons are supposed to give Mormons a second and third and fourteenth chance is highly relevant to why Jason Hardy has to defend poor Loren Coleman who stole a bunch of money. Which you'll note, is the last time we made a point of someone's religion. When it was fucking relevant and in fact, important.

So please stop whining about how mean we are to Mormons, because it's fucking sad and pathetic.

[Critias]

Well Critias, you're wrong. Anger is a really great way to be heard.

You can be heard and still not be listened to, AH. I can tell you, right now, that some of you guys have been screeching long and loud enough that when they say something -- even something that might have some truth in it -- eyes roll, and someone says something like "News flash: Frank still hates us, LOL."

Yeah, you're being loud. Yeah, you're being heard. But no one is giving a fuck about what you're saying, no matter how loudly you're saying it. If more of you could be bothered to try that "angry and civil" approach that you mention -- and that you, personally, sometimes use -- then maybe more of you would be genuinely paid some attention to, is all I'm saying.

You can deny it if you want, you can insist it's not right if you want, you can just say "you're wrong" if you want, but I'm in these conversations, dude. I see it. Face to face at a freelancer meeting at Gencon, in email chains and chats, in PMs and on message boards and in all the ways the devs and writers and freelancers all hang out and talk shop. Some of the complaints have a kernel of truth in them and that kernel gets easier and easier to ignore, the shriller and more personal the accompanying insults get. Right or wrong, like it or not, it is what's happening.

When War! hit, the face melted right off the internet from the wailing and gnashing of teeth and the insults and the shrieks of incompetence and ineptitude. The same day, a couple of us politely suggested we look into how products are getting edited, and change how that works to get more eyes on each chapter pre-production. Guess what? Instead of Jason dying in a fire and everyone that works for CGL getting bitten by sharks with AIDs (like the shrillest, angriest, internet nerdragers wanted), we made those changes to how stuff gets edited and proofed, we got more eyes on each chapter, and the quality of products, in terms of basic mistakes, went up some in the months that followed.

A civil suggestion gets more done than a frothing insult, is all I'm trying to say. Shake your fist and deny it all you want to, but you'll just keep on being ignored as background noise, if you do.

[Critias]

So Crit, are you a Mormon, or just an idiot?

Neither, thanks.

But it's good to see my point being missed so very, very, clearly. And then folks wonder why I stopped posting here. Why the fuck should I want to post here? Why should anyone, who isn't exactly the same level and type of pissed-off-about-gaming as the rest of you guys?

[Fuchs]

The fanboys and hacks will ignore criticism they disagree with anyway, no matter how it is phrased.

[Ancient History]

When War! hit, the face melted right off the internet from the wailing and gnashing of teeth and the insults and the shrieks of incompetence and ineptitude. The same day, a couple of us politely suggested we look into how products are getting edited, and change how that works to get more eyes on each chapter pre-production. Guess what? Instead of Jason dying in a fire and everyone that works for CGL getting bitten by sharks with AIDs (like the shrillest, angriest, internet nerdragers wanted), we made those changes to how stuff gets edited and proofed, we got more eyes on each chapter, and the quality of products, in terms of basic mistakes, went up some in the months that followed.

A civil suggestion gets more done than a frothing insult, is all I'm trying to say. Shake your fist and deny it all you want to, but you'll just keep on being ignored as background noise, if you do.

Look at this from another perspective: for months before War! hit the street, I had been arguing - sometimes politely, sometimes forcefully - about the problems with CGL's current editorial process. I was ignored. Then War! happened. If a faction of the fans had not been vocal, I submit that you too would have been ignored - because, and I like to stress this because I do have my little hatchet to grind - Jason Hardy doesn't give a fuck.

And as far as background noise - I was noisy enough as a freelancer, talking to people and trying to stay informed and inform others, that I got the boot. I was sufficient background noise that cancelling my contracts blew a hole in CGL's already laughably bad production schedule, and people still download the drafts I released for free. I was background noise enough that my very presence on the official forums was sufficient provocation for my former friends and freelancers to start a thread bitching about me on a private forum.

So yeah, I was a mosquito. An angry, angry little mosquito. Bzzz.

[raben-aas]

The fanboys and hacks will ignore criticism they disagree with anyway, no matter how it is phrased.

True. But those who also read those conversations (the "neutrals" who are unaware of who is who) are more likely to find truth in (and sympathize with) a well-written critique than in a well-written (graphic) insult.

Also, even though they may still ignore whatever they like, good points are much harder to ignore than childish insults.

Although I have to admit that insulting people takes way less effort, and sometimes there really isn't anything more to say...

[Critias]

I was background noise enough that my very presence on the official forums was sufficient provocation for my former friends and freelancers to start a thread bitching about me on a private forum.

Yeah, AH. I know the thread. I'm the one that pointed out it was in poor taste and a little hypocritical, remember?

Do me a favor and be pissed at the people you mean to be pissed at, okay?

[Kaelik]

So Crit, are you a Mormon, or just an idiot?

But it's good to see my point being missed so very, very, clearly. And then folks wonder why I stopped posting here. Why the fuck should I want to post here? Why should anyone, who isn't exactly the same level and type of pissed-off-about-gaming as the rest of you guys?

Protip: When someone doesn't do what you want them to do, it doesn't mean they didn't get your point, sometimes it just means they disagree with you.

You were whining about how mean it is of people to insult religion, that's either because you are Mormon and felt hurt and offended, or you are stupid, and you feel hurt and offended on behalf of everyone when mean people point out a way they are full of shit. I was curious which. So I asked, and gave you a basic chance to realize your error (if it wasn't the Mormon one) by showing why the only times people have made fun of religion is when it is relevant.

You could have addressed the content, or you could tone troll, and despite your rampant protests about how you don't ignore content when you hear a mean swear word, I expected the latter, the content was merely a courtesy.

[tzor]

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it's how the world is -- you do get more flies with honey than vinegar.

[IMAGE REMOVED]

No fair. Everyone knows that Baslamic Vinegar has a ton of sugar in it. That's cheating. Use plain vinegar like the stuff you do to make easter eggs or clean your coffee pot.

[Critias]

Kaelik, I couldn't care less about someone's faith (or lack thereof, for that matter). I'm not a Mormon, and I don't claim to be. I don't care that it happens to be the Mormon faith getting picked on, it'd be just as rude and unnecessary were they Catholics, pagans, or devout worshipers of the Norse fucking pantheon.

What bothers me about it is the level of personal vitriol required to bring up someone's faith when criticizing how they write games of dice and make-believe, and -- now that you keep harping about it -- it's kind of irritating how you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking it's only come up that one time. What's more, my point (the part you keep ignoring) is that religion is one of those topics that it just plain isn't smart to harangue someone about. If I, a not terribly religious guy, can recoil at the crassness required to insult someone's religion, can't you see how other people might be similarly off-put by it? By bringing up someone's faith in the course of criticizing their writing or administrative abilities, can't you see that you're making their faith the topic of your discussion, rather than the writing/administrating that you claim to be concerned with?

I really just don't understand how a bunch of guys as smart as you don't see how you're drowning out your own message in the spite. If all you're out to do, ever, is vent and rage, that's fine -- but be honest about it, don't claim to still be trying to spread the good word and do what's best for Shadowrun, or whatever.

[Whipstitch]

[
No fair. Everyone knows that Baslamic Vinegar has a ton of sugar in it. That's cheating. Use plain vinegar like the stuff you do to make easter eggs or clean your coffee pot.

This post hits me as kind of silly and nitpicky. Most vinegars will have sugar in them because they're the result of fermentation and thus there's going to be sugar involved in the process at some point because that's how fermentation works. Distilled vinegar only lacks sugars because people purposely boil things off until you're left with just the water and acetic acid.

[Neurosis]

"I don't doubt that the Den is honest, mind you, I'm just saying that telling "the truth"(TM) in a circle where pretty much everyone has the same opinion hardly qualifies for a medal of honor."

I often have a dissenting opinion here on the den, but I am afraid to express it because I think that people will be excessively mean to me.

You can call that a lot of things (including, before anyone else says it, me being oversensitive, or even a pussy) but I don't think you can call it "honesty".

I honestly feel more comfortable criticizing Jason Hardy on SR4ums than I do criticizing Frank here.

(Not trying to defend SR4ums either, by the way. Censorship sucks and at least the Den doesn't have censorship. It just makes me afraid to say unpopular things in the first place. Den users are very good at being mean. It is really hilarious to read when it's happening to someone else.)

What bothers me about it is the level of personal vitriol required to bring up someone's faith when criticizing how they write games of dice and make-believe

Mormonism was the explicitly stated explanation for Loren Coleman keeping his job after committing what a lot of very visible evidence indicates is massive embezzlement. After that it is slightly less than shocking that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints came under fire.

[Josh_Kablack]

I really just don't understand how a bunch of guys as smart as you don't see how you're drowning out your own message in the spite.

I think I speak for most of the regulars here when I say that I'd like you better if you spent less time being defensive and more time mocking Mike Mearls.

[Critias]

I think I speak for most of the regulars here when I say that I'd like you better if you spent less time being defensive and more time mocking Mike Mearls.

I would, if I gave a fuck about D&D 4th edition. As it is, I just quietly wrote it off after playing it a few times, and haven't thought or cared about it since. We roll HERO Fantasy when we're in the mood for swords and sorcery, lately.

[OgreBattle]

I really just don't understand how a bunch of guys as smart as you don't see how you're drowning out your own message in the spite.

Knowledge and social skills usually use separate attributes, and often when you're good at one you take the other as your dump stat.

[Otakusensei]

I think I was worried at first about posting here, about getting yelled at, but I found out a secret. I was doing it wrong.

The type of posting Critias is talking about is all about pre-screening your words and wordsmithing to point where there's most likely more effort in the shape of the words than their content. You can even go so far as to shop your comments around to a more accepting forum; or hell of hells, alter your own position to fit in. I have to admit to frequently zoning out in his posts, or rereading to make sure I caught everything. I realized that I didn't like doing that, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone else if I could avoid it. But that's just one way of doing it, and it also goes hand in hand with this fundamental concept that you have to worry what other people think about you and your post.

If there's anything I've learned from this whole CGL debacle it's that, fuck it; I don't care what any of you think about my posts. I know my words have value, and I don't need someone else quoting or reading or PMing me to prove that.

If it didn't mean anything, I wouldn't have said it.

Doesn't mean everything I type is a gem, but it does mean that at the time I meant every word. Part of that is opening myself up to retribution, but bring it. Just like someone can tell you to "calm down, it's only the internet" I would rather tell everyone to "Speak up! It's only the internet!"

[Chamomile]

Crit, take a look at this bit of Kaelik's post:

So Crit, are you a Mormon, or just an idiot?

Try to imagine what intent Kaelik could possibly have had when he was writing it. Do you really think communicating his complaint with passion was actually what he was trying to do there? Do you really think that anyone of the human species capable of properly understanding language, with the possible exception of people who are extremely autistic, would have failed to notice that the sentence was insulting and added nothing to the discussion even as they were writing it? I don't know Kaelik well enough to make any guesses as to what his motivation is in posting things like this, but it very obviously has absolutely nothing to do with clearly communicating the complaints which are the subject of what he has literally written. 90% of Kaelik's posts have, as their main point, "I hate you," and any actual relevant points he has for the discussion at hand are pretty incidental.

The point of all this being, don't waste your time trying to tell Kaelik how to communicate clearly, because that's not what he's here for.

[K]

I am often amused that people come uninvited to the Den to tell us who we are, often in a lame attempt to defend something we are talking about in one of the most obscure corners of the internet with a handful of regular posters.