Magic as a D&D Edition Setting

[Sashi]

Red Archer would probably be an Artillerist.

[zugschef]

Red Archer would probably be an Artillerist.

While this is fitting, I think it's a really bad class name. What the fuck does an Artillerist Archer do? Besides, It's way too "artificy" for me. That said, I've added it.

Speaking of "artificy", I'll add the Artificer to the table.

[Sashi]

I came up with it mostly because Red is the only color that doesn't have an archer, but there's a big siege weaponry theme for red. I figure very large crossbows and/or volley fire.

Bombardier or Bomber would also fit, there's actually a "bomber corps" red creature.

[zugschef]

I came up with it mostly because Red is the only color that doesn't have an archer, but there's a big siege weaponry theme for red. I figure very large crossbows and/or volley fire.

Bombardier or Bomber would also fit, there's actually a "bomber corps" red creature.

Again, this is way too based on gear for an Archer for my taste. Also, Red does have Archers.

[Almaz]

I have no objection to any of the current Green Knight names, but I will note that I also proposed Steward, and no one has stewed on that selection as a possibility. But I digress.

[Sashi]

Again, this is way too based on gear for an Archer for my taste.

What are you smoking? The class is called Archer. If anything having Artillerist and Bombardier show up as valid basic builds of the class expands the mindspace by showing that "archers" aren't just dudes with bows. They can also toss bombs while dragging around a giant arbalest and launch baloons with buckets of acid to drop on your head or use clockwork crossbows that launch a hundred bolts a minute.

If you don't expand the mindspace into "archers" throwing darts or dropping bombs, then it doesn't matter how many spells they cast or griffons they can summon, everything will boil down to arrows: bomb arrow, net arrow, boxing glove arrow.

Looking at your list of class names, your preferred green archer is "Fletcher" which literally means "dude who makes arrows" so I don't even.

[zugschef]

Again, this is way too based on gear for an Archer for my taste.

What are you smoking? The class is called Archer. If anything having Artillerist and Bombardier show up as valid basic builds of the class expands the mindspace by showing that "archers" aren't just dudes with bows. They can also toss bombs while dragging around a giant arbalest and launch baloons with buckets of acid to drop on your head or use clockwork crossbows that launch a hundred bolts a minute.

If you don't expand the mindspace into "archers" throwing darts or dropping bombs, then it doesn't matter how many spells they cast or griffons they can summon, everything will boil down to arrows: bomb arrow, net arrow, boxing glove arrow.

Looking at your list of class names, your preferred green archer is "Fletcher" which literally means "dude who makes arrows" so I don't even.

Dude... calm down. In my world Bomber, Bombardier, Artillerist, etc. are Artificers. They bring their toys with them and use them and when they've used them all they're mostly done for the day. Otherwise this would be a shit class because it is totally dependable on the guy who actually makes these toys (= trash mobs); and that's why they should make them themselves. The Archer on the other hand, as Frank has shown with the five different cards, is more of an Arcane and/or Cleric Archer. Even if you steal his weapon he still has something left to do.

As for the Fletcher, I've backed it up with an existing card. I'm not particularly happy with it to be honest, but right now, it's the only alternative to the Sagittar (who is my only valid option for White) I could come up with.

I have no objection to any of the current Green Knight names, but I will note that I also proposed Steward, and no one has stewed on that selection as a possibility. But I digress.

That was an oversight by me. I wouldn't take it over the Warden, though. There is only one Steward in the entire game who is not even mono-green, and it sounds way too urban to me, whereas Warden has a nice connotation relating to nature.

[Almaz]

I have no objection to any of the current Green Knight names, but I will note that I also proposed Steward, and no one has stewed on that selection as a possibility. But I digress.

That was an oversight by me. I wouldn't take it over the Warden, though. There is only one Steward in the entire game who is not even mono-green, and it sounds way too urban to me, whereas Warden has a nice connotation relating to nature.

I don't think you understand how willing I am to make a post just to offer a lame pun.

[RadiantPhoenix]

The white artificer should be an "archaeologist"

[Whatever]

The white artificer should be an "archaeologist"

This is correct.

[zugschef]

The white artificer should be an "archaeologist"

This is correct.

I've seen the Archeologist, but what does an Archeologist have to do with an Artificer? The only thing Archeologists do in Magic, is finding or destroying Artifacts. An Artificer you really want to play is someone who actually crafts stuff.

[Whatever]

MtG Archaeologists put stuff back together. Also, Indiana Jones.

[zugschef]

MtG Archaeologists put stuff back together. Also, Indiana Jones.

They do? Do you have card? And Indie is a Rogue.

[Whatever]

It's the one you just linked. Argivian Archaeologist digs up artifacts from your graveyard, so that you can use them again. Even ones that have been Shattered or Disenchanted.

[Red_Rob]

In general an Archaeologist could be proficient in using ancient and powerful items that people today have lost the secret of wielding. This is a fairly common trope that has some traction in Magic due to the Brothers War and other great cataclysms in the past leaving treasure troves buried around the place. It also leads to out of combat abililities such as Earthmoving, and knowledge of subjects such as Geology, History and Anthropology. All in all I'd say it has enough hooks to make a decent class out of.

[zugschef]

I'm not arguing the point that Archeologist can't be a nice class, because it obviously can, I'm arguing that an Archeologist will never be a crafting class which the Artificer of course always will be.

[Almaz]

We should really be spinning our wheels more on designing monster encounters and opposition for the game. Characters need to scale walls, fight dragons, and shatter evil artifacts.

[zugschef]

We should really be spinning our wheels more on designing monster encounters and opposition for the game. Characters need to scale walls, fight dragons, and shatter evil artifacts.

While this is the logical next step, I'd first like to pin down the color-specific names of the five starting base classes (Knight, Scout, Rogue, Cleric and Shaman).

Now there's your thread for Knight, Scout and Rogue where we're making progress, but Cleric and especially the Shaman are still subject to debate. For getting a consensus on the Shaman I think, we have to include and talk about the wizard, too; at least in Red's case.

[Username17]

I'm not arguing the point that Archeologist can't be a nice class, because it obviously can, I'm arguing that an Archeologist will never be a crafting class which the Artificer of course always will be.

The Argivian Archaeologist was indeed retconned into being an Artificer in the great type update. Reprints look like this.

Regardless, Fletcher and Artillerist are both bad names for Archer classes. The Red Archer is the Exterminator. Because those guys are awesome.

Green is more difficult, because while they have a lot of Archers, most of their archers are just named "archer", and that's not helpful. My thought would be Stalker.

Someone gets Sniper, someone gets Sharpshooter, and those could really go to either White or Blue. White is up in the air because they have lots and lots of Archers with no clear titles. Blue is up in the air because they have very few archers with no clear titles.

Conceptually, the Blue Archer is a meditative psychic archer type, the Green Archer is a woodsy hunter, black archer is an assassin who captures people, and so on. But the Green, Blue, and White Archers don't have clear names the way Black and Red do.

-Username17

[Almaz]

While this is the logical next step, I'd first like to pin down the color-specific names of the five starting base classes (Knight, Scout, Rogue, Cleric and Shaman).

It is my firm opinion that knowing what those characters will be facing is crucial to determining what those characters are, and doing so now at a point where the concepts are still somewhat fluid would be ideal. Heroes tend to be marked by their opposition. If there are groceries to be bagged, you send a store clerk to take care of them. If there are dragons to be slain, you send a knight to take care of them. Don't ask your knight to sort your groceries - you'll wind up with crushed eggs that way, the moment he gets his gauntlets on it.

While somewhat ridiculous as an example, we already have the names most direly needed - White Rogue. Red Knight. Green Scout. Needs food badly. What minigames do these characters play?

That said...

Someone gets Sniper, someone gets Sharpshooter, and those could really go to either White or Blue. White is up in the air because they have lots and lots of Archers with no clear titles. Blue is up in the air because they have very few archers with no clear titles.

Conceptually, the Blue Archer is a meditative psychic archer type, the Green Archer is a woodsy hunter, black archer is an assassin who captures people, and so on. But the Green, Blue, and White Archers don't have clear names the way Black and Red do.

-Username17

Green Archer is Sniper, and White Archer is Sharpshooter (or Marksman) because the former works in very small groups if at all and emphasizes blending into natural surroundings, whereas White is more cooperative and their archers tend to be fire support - exactly what snipers aren't.

That's my crazy logic anyways.

[zugschef]

I'd say that Sniper sounds really Blue. I considered Marksman myself, but found no card supporting it. I still wouldn't throw out the Sagittar, It makes for a rather good magic using archer character for Green. Stalkers, on the other hand, are more Rogues in Magic and appart from a Birdstalker they aren't Green. Why not use Stalker for White and Sagittar for Green?

[edit] Well, Stalkers actually aren't White either but mostly Black and Blue. *sigh*

[Red_Rob]

We should really be spinning our wheels more on designing monster encounters and opposition for the game. Characters need to scale walls, fight dragons, and shatter evil artifacts.

As far as big picture stuff goes, I see the game as going to 10 levels - with each level roughly corresponding to the CMC of the creatures in the card game. So level 1 and 2 your opposition consists of mundane animals, lowl level humanoids, and magical creatures without any real protective abilities. Level 3 to 4 you encounter Giants, flying monsters, Regenerating trolls, creatures with instant death abilities and magic resistant enemies. Level 5 to 6 you are facing Magical Titans, Shapeshifters, Angels and Elementals. Enemies tend to be resistant or immune to one or more common modes of attack, in addition to having powerful attacks or auras that render lower level characters ineffective. Level 7 and 8 includes Ancient Dragons, Archdemons, Nightmare Horrors, Titanic beasts and assorted unique named Legendary monsters. At this level most creatures will have large scale effects and abilities, meaning the scale will have to be somewhat zoomed out. Battles will take place over a large area, and tend to devastate the surrounding countryside due to collateral damage. Characters will need abilities to match. At levels 9 and 10 you face threats to life as we know it - Civilization eating Eldrazi, Continent eating Leviathans, Avatars of various powers and World Spirits. At this level your abilities matter on a global level, with characters needing to protect or destroy city scale targets to keep in the fight.

Now, I don't anticipate every game will "go to 10", and with such large power jumps it might be sensible to ration out advancement in a more piecemeal fashion - possibly having characters reaching 'milestones' within a level where they receive some bonuses chosen from those they would receive at level up. This would allow characters to still advance more regularly. Although maybe that's just adding extra levels in all but name?

[zugschef]

To me, ten levels still seem extremely pixelated. Then again, maybe it's not a bad idea to make a Magic TTRPG more of a gamistic experience.

[Almaz]

I suggest we do five levels and assume (and design around) 10 in the final game. If we put together the entire game, we could release the next 5 as a Joke Book. In a sense, we chunk D&D's expanded 30 or 40 levels into 10. I think that's good, do you?

The slight extra padding in terms of levels (to bring it up to 10) are mostly to ease people in to moving from merely Adventurer to Paragon tier, and to grant an increased sense of accomplishment as people advance. You should feel like going from level 1 to level 3 is a notable shift, without necessarily ceasing to play the game you were entirely - you probably are traveling in similar landscapes. By level 6, the original game is "gone" entirely, and a single Baron Sengir can stomp entire armies. You need a hero to defeat him. We might consider playable planeswalkers at this point - and they sure as hell start to appear as enemies.

As far as "combined mana cost" goes, we should only glance vaguely in its general direction. Progenitus is much harder to put out than Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, in spite of having a CMC of 10 in both cases. Which is stronger? You can argue about that. But we can certainly, when designing, make mana cost comparisons, just, it's going to be abstracted when it hits the game world.

[RadiantPhoenix]

So, looking at Magic card mana costs, and going with a heroic/paragon/epic division, then I'd say that the divisions are like this:

• Heroic: CMC=1..4
• Paragon: CMC=5..7
• Epic: CMC=8..16

If you're of a lore-appropriate race, you can switch over to being a planeswalker instead in the paragon tier, and at the epic tier you are required to do that or something equivalently "OP".