[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:19 am

so what's this meditating to regain power points thing, and where is it? When I checked the SRD I couldn't find it.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:37 am

It's pretty much exactly like a wizard preparing spells. You sleep in a peaceful environment for 8 hours without casting spells manifesting psionic powers, then you get all your power points back.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:23 am

fectin wrote:
Koumei wrote:Now if you want to go into some magical land where people don't use stuff not published by WotC and where terrible shit is still included in the game for anyone to bathe in, you can do that, but it's not the Den.
In my experience, that "magical land" is most tables. It may not be a good thing, but it's super common.

This. And more to the point ... core fucking spellcasting. Not only have the Tomes not replaced it, they even refer to it!

I'll make no argument that psionics is a perfect system. It's just not some vortex of suck that ruins games more than the core already does. Which is how a number of people here refer to it.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:11 am

"Core fucking spells" remain precisely because they're the balance level chosen. And even then, guess what? Some of them are changed to make the game work. If you want to argue in its favour, you should point out how, just like the Wizard, the creators didn't put a replacement into the Tomes. That might get you somewhere, until either of them post saying something to the effect of "Yeah, it's shit, but the reason for not replacing it is we don't care enough" or "because nobody can agree what they want it to be/what the flavour should be" or whatever.

And the "most tables" thing just brings us to another point of unconventional Den wisdom: half of core is shit and should be taken out back, shot, and replaced. You can totally do that. Also, seeing as WotC have shown themselves to be fallible, it is okay to accept stuff made by people who aren't them.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:19 am

Koumei, stop being retarded. He is arguing that if Core spells stay in, then Psionics is not any fucking worse, and should also be included.

That's the argument. So when K says "Well yes, but a level 1 Psion only has 4 uses a day from 3 powers, so it's worse than a Fire Mage, and shouldn't be included" the answer "Wizards only have 4 spells at level 1, and their decision tree after preparation is even worse than Psions, because it's 4 choices, then 3 then 2 then 1. So unless you are saying Wizards are not versatile enough, your complaint about Psions makes no sense."

That's the argument that is going on. No one but you is saying that we can't use Wizards with Core spells, so the fact that you abruptly 180ed and are now arguing that Wizards are okay and how dare he say they aren't makes no fucking sense, because that's what he's been saying all along.

Gx1080 · Post by **Gx1080** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:20 pm

I always wonder in discussions about Psionics how much of the movement against them is just knee-jerk "it doesn't belong to mah D&D". You know, the same force that dictates that guns must suck.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:28 pm

Gx1080 wrote:I always wonder in discussions about Psionics how much of the movement against them is just knee-jerk "it doesn't belong to mah D&D". You know, the same force that dictates that guns must suck.

I've never objected to the flavor of psionics itself.

Just a lot of how it was handled leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

The Psychic Warrior and Soulknife don't have full-BAB. That's really just sort of indicative of the problems with psionics as a whole.

And guns in D&D shouldn't suck.

K · Post by K » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:42 pm

Gx1080 wrote:I always wonder in discussions about Psionics how much of the movement against them is just knee-jerk "it doesn't belong to mah D&D". You know, the same force that dictates that guns must suck.

I think it's because psionics in every edition has always been a completely new system completely different from the previous version that is both more complicated and not as good as magic.

Those are both pretty damning factors.

I mean, give the current version of psionics a few more passes and cut the "Psionics Are Different" bullshit completely and you might have something that can exist along with the currently half-broken system of DnD magic.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:48 pm

Grek wrote:It's pretty much exactly like a wizard preparing spells. You sleep in a peaceful environment for 8 hours without casting spells manifesting psionic powers, then you get all your power points back.

Ah, ok. It sounded like there was some special "meditate for a few rounds to get some Power Points back" rule. damn. Talking about psionics has made me want to play one, so I'm trying to find a good build. Psionic PrCs suck.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:13 pm

Only one I've found that offers full manifesting is Anarchic Inititate from Complete Pshit.

Basically, you are a psion. You get the wild surge of a wilder.

Go you.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:04 am

Seems like Bruce Cordell has smeared his dick over everything psionics related that I can find. It really sucks given that he's the cause of it's shittiness.

Echoes · Post by **Echoes** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:39 am

Prak_Anima wrote:
Grek wrote:It's pretty much exactly like a wizard preparing spells. You sleep in a peaceful environment for 8 hours without casting spells manifesting psionic powers, then you get all your power points back.
Ah, ok. It sounded like there was some special "meditate for a few rounds to get some Power Points back" rule. damn. Talking about psionics has made me want to play one, so I'm trying to find a good build. Psionic PrCs suck.

Thrallherds are absurdly powerful. Super-leadership for the win. There's also Anarchic Initiates, who have basically no downsides and give you some solid boosts. Other than that, yeah Psionic PrCs absolutely blow. I know some arcane PrCs have Psionic adaptations, so you could look around for those.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:14 am

Oh god...Thrallherd.

A somewhat unscrupulous friend of mine dropped it on a new DM. (admittedly, I suggested it. I did not suggest what follows). He found the persistent power feat, and used it on the timeless body power (you are invincible for a round) along with:

Having a shit ton of psionic followers who showed up to teach him psi powers, and they then left

Having psi followers live in his pocket in a permanent metaconcert.

It was...interesting to say the least.

The other party members were my noctumancer (ToM shadowcaster/wizard hybrid, can be taken with mystic theurge, immediate action counterspells & stuff) and a fighter using some random Arcane Warrior ACFs from some Dragon magazine.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:06 am

CapnTthePirateG wrote:Oh god...Thrallherd.

A somewhat unscrupulous friend of mine dropped it on a new DM. (admittedly, I suggested it. I did not suggest what follows). He found the persistent power feat, and used it on the timeless body power (you are invincible for a round) along with:

Having a shit ton of psionic followers who showed up to teach him psi powers, and they then left

Having psi followers live in his pocket in a permanent metaconcert.

It was...interesting to say the least.

The other party members were my noctumancer (ToM shadowcaster/wizard hybrid, can be taken with mystic theurge, immediate action counterspells & stuff) and a fighter using some random Arcane Warrior ACFs from some Dragon magazine.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:12 am

Where's Persist Power from? I've been wondering if there's a psionic version of Persist.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:12 am

It's in the Minds Eye articles somewhere, on the old Wizards web site.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:05 am

Constructor (on the WotC site) can be a decent PrC for summoning. It does lose a ML, but that can be compensated for with shenanigans (Overchannel or Link Power) on Astral Construct.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:46 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Where's Persist Power from? I've been wondering if there's a psionic version of Persist.

Here you go:

http://www.d20resources.com/arcana.d20. ... .power.php

A Man In Black · Post by **A Man In Black** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:26 am

Leress wrote:Here you go:

http://www.d20resources.com/arcana.d20. ... .power.php

I have no idea where that came from, but it wasn't XPH.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:39 am

A Man In Black wrote:
Leress wrote:Here you go:

http://www.d20resources.com/arcana.d20. ... .power.php
I have no idea where that came from, but it wasn't XPH.

It's from Urban Arcana.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:30 pm

Another decent psionic PrC is the slayer.

It's the SRD version of the Illithid Slayer, cuz you can't say "Illithid" in the SRD. You lose an ML at 1st level, but, other than that, it's pretty golden as far as such things go.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:19 pm

Blicero wrote:Another decent psionic PrC is the slayer.

It's the SRD version of the Illithid Slayer, cuz you can't say "Illithid" in the SRD. You lose an ML at 1st level, but, other than that, it's pretty golden as far as such things go.

The ML lost outweighs all the benefits of the class for all but a very small selection of characters.

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:37 pm

Unless you're an ardent. Or something.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:34 am

Losing a ML isn't as bad as losing a CL (not that it's trivial, either). Powers are augmented based on your total ML (including Practiced Manifester, and things like Overchannel), so while you may be behind on number of powers, and not have certain powers, you will still have level-appropriate options.

For example, at 17th level:
* Wizard 7 with CL 17 - fucked.
* Psion 7 with ML 17 - still gets Summon Monster 9, Twin Dominate Monster, 6d4 Ego Whip, immediate-action Energy Adaptation, etc.

Ok, losing more than 1-2 levels - you're still probably screwed. But a couple doesn't necessarily doom you.

Echoes · Post by **Echoes** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:29 am

Ice9 wrote:Losing a ML isn't as bad as losing a CL (not that it's trivial, either). Powers are augmented based on your total ML (including Practiced Manifester, and things like Overchannel), so while you may be behind on number of powers, and not have certain powers, you will still have level-appropriate options.

For example, at 17th level:
* Wizard 7 with CL 17 - fucked.
* Psion 7 with ML 17 - still gets Summon Monster 9, Twin Dominate Monster, 6d4 Ego Whip, immediate-action Energy Adaptation, etc.

Ok, losing more than 1-2 levels - you're still probably screwed. But a couple doesn't necessarily doom you.

You still lose out on power points and powers known, including higher-level powers. It's slightly less asstastic than losing spellcasting levels for a Wizard, but it's still a shitty deal.

Now, there are cases when losing 1-2 manifesting levels is worth it. They involve the words "Thrallherd" and "I'm the party now, bitch".