De canistro textrinum

[John Magnum]

frozen fast frozen fast frozen fast frozen fast

[Mistborn]

There are already multiple version of Demogorgon in the official published sourcebooks. There is a CR 23 in the Fiendish Codex, a CR30 in the BoVD, and a CR 9 version in the Miniature's Handbook. A CR 9 version! Even with the published material there are few stories or adventures that you can't do with a party that is roughly at the same power level as each other.

That CR 9 isn't not Demogorgon it's his hand puppet. As for the rest of your nonsense, overall grade F, hope to see you in the fall semester K.

[K]

There are already multiple version of Demogorgon in the official published sourcebooks. There is a CR 23 in the Fiendish Codex, a CR30 in the BoVD, and a CR 9 version in the Miniature's Handbook. A CR 9 version! Even with the published material there are few stories or adventures that you can't do with a party that is roughly at the same power level as each other.

That CR 9 isn't not Demogorgon it's his hand puppet. As for the rest of your nonsense, overall grade F, hope to see you in the fall semester K.

Go way, troll. Adults are speaking here.

[Fuchs]

Are we really at a point where people claim you're not allowed to adjust monsters so they fit your campaign better?

[Lago PARANOIA]

I always wondered why liberals had such disdain for Seth MacFarlane. And now I know.

[Kaelik]

I always wondered why liberals had such disdain for Seth MacFarlane. And now I know.

Could you explain that. I am genuinely curious.

[K]

Are we really at a point where people claim you're not allowed to adjust monsters so they fit your campaign better?

Yes. This is basically a battle between the people who think that Living Greyhawk is the greatest form of DnD with its canned adventures and semi-objective benchmarks and the people who play DnD at home with people they don't hate and write their own adventures or tweak modules.

Frank thinks that this is a battle between people who want game balance and people who don't, but no one is arguing that point.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Could you explain that. I am genuinely curious.

Few years back on Family Guy, Seth MacFarlane was using that show and the viewpoint character of Brian to argue for liberal hobbyhorses like gay marriage. Good for him. Except that it was done in such a slipshod and annoying way that a lot of people felt that he set back the cause -- so the people who he was reaching out to felt ashamed to agree with him.

Before TvTropes became an intellectually incestuous pedophile pit I would have linked you to Don't Shoot the Message or whatever it's called.

[Mistborn]

Yes. This is basically a battle between the people who think that Living Greyhawk is the greatest form of DnD with its canned adventures and semi-objective benchmarks and the people who play DnD at home with people they don't hate and write their own adventures or tweak modules.

Frank thinks that this is a battle between people who want game balance and people who don't, but no one is arguing that point.

No I am

1) questioning weather people want to be told that they aren't living up to their CR and can only play on easy modo.

2) asserting that players will feel cheated if the DM is putting the game on stealth easy mode.

3) asserting that DMs who allow parties to overcome obstacles through fudged rolls and MTP enable RPGsite-like behavior that hurts the hobby.

Now are you going to respond honestly to these points or are you going to continue to be frozen fast.

[Foxwarrior]

Doesn't MTP include all out-of-rules behavior? What do you mean by MTP, exactly, Lord Mistborn?

[Fuchs]

I would bet that more people want to play a character they like, modeled after a book or movie character, than wnat to "Live up to their CR".

As was pointed out already, weak parties are not a problem, unbalanced powerlevels within a party can be a problem.

GMs who allow their players to have fun help the hobby, GMs who make players quit harm the hobby. I posit that more people quit if they are punished for failing than people stay.

[Foxwarrior]

I would bet that more people want to play a character they like, modeled after a book or movie character, than wnat to "Live up to their CR".

Clearly, these people need to be taught the beauty of emergent gameplay and stop obsessing over fan fiction.

[Fuchs]

I would bet that more people want to play a character they like, modeled after a book or movie character, than wnat to "Live up to their CR".

Clearly, these people need to be taught the beauty of emergent gameplay and stop obsessing over fan fiction.

Emergent Gameplay is in no way hindered by using characters modeled after book or movie characters. And given how much of fanfiction is using characters "out of character", behaving much differently than they do in the origional, I'd assume that even an obsession with fanfiction wouldn't prevent emergent gameplay at all - quite the contrary, in fact.

[Mistborn]

Doesn't MTP include all out-of-rules behavior? What do you mean by MTP, exactly, Lord Mistborn?

My definition of MTP is the GM creating a rules outcome by fiat rather than using the existing rules, thus my definition also includes fudging dice. Basically if "is the GM willing to let you perform this action" is the sole determinant of that actions resolution the game has become MTP.

[John Magnum]

Then by rule zero all gaming, everywhere, is MTP because it's always up to the GM to allow you to use the rules as written.

[Wrathzog]

I would bet that more people want to play a character they like, modeled after a book or movie character, than wnat to "Live up to their CR".

Clearly, these people need to be taught the beauty of emergent gameplay and stop obsessing over fan fiction.

man fuck you my next WoD character's going to be Vampire named Dio Brando and I'm going to have a 2 point retainer named Johnathon.
-e-
I'm not even lying.

[Shrapnel]

Sorry to interrupt, but I couldn't help but notice some things...

Mistyisms:

1. Calling someone frozen fast, which always makes me think of frozen fetesus and/or shrimp (big difference)

2. Calling people "basketweavers"

3. That doushio meme

4. Trolling wordered poorly

5. Letting Frank articulate his trolling for him, instead of bothering to do so himself.
Example:

Now are you done being frozen fast or am I going to have to wait for Frank to bitchslap you again.

Basically, "Governor Mistborn Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Franks Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.

6. Calling someone frozen fast

[quanta]

This is wrong. Very wrong. If you are going to remove problematic things then it has to be symmetric otherwise you're coddling the players.

Noone using Scry and Die = not coddling

Everyone using Scry and Die = not coddling

Only the players getting to use Scry and Die = coddling

This isn't had to understand but apparently this is too advanced for some people here (probably because they're frozen fast).

The game is already asymmetric the moment I decided to not send tons of fucking mirror matches at the players. I know you think D&D is somehow some sort of fair competition between DM and players but... it's not. The DM is already following rules where most encounters are 4 v 1 in favor of the players. D&D is already a game where the DM is supposed to play at one type of disadvantage for most encounters while simultaneously ignoring a large part of his main advantage (that he knows everything about the characters, but the players don't know everything about the monsters).

D&D won't be hurt any more by an asymmetry where the Lich doesn't scry and die the players than it will be by the fact that most encounters are individually in the players' favor (of course, iterative probability is against them). Not that I'll have the lich derp and get scry and died (although if the players think of something similarly effective that I didn't cover, I'm probably not going to stop them). But I don't give a shit if the players use scry and die to punk a war camp of some orcs that might have been vaguely threatening if the PC's did something stupid like fight them head on.

The fact the Lich doesn't scry and die the players doesn't even need to hurt WSoD. Maybe he's busy doing other things. Maybe he's a sorcerer and doesn't have the right spells for it. Maybe he'd rather just rely on his well hidden phylactery to come back from losses rather than press the offense.

D&D is not a symmetric game. Players can't play mindless vermin or regular animals even though they might fight those. Players usually don't get 1/year type abilities themselves (although due to the retardation of summoning and binding, things don't work quite right). Monsters and NPCs have less treasure than PCs. Monsters roll hit points on their first level still. The CR system for monsters works totally different that the level system for players (lol nonassociated class levels), yet players are expected to beat a monster of with CR = PC level about 50% of the time.


EDIT:

1) questioning weather people want to be told that they aren't living up to their CR and can only play on easy modo.

2) asserting that players will feel cheated if the DM is putting the game on stealth easy mode.

3) asserting that DMs who allow parties to overcome obstacles through fudged rolls and MTP enable RPGsite-like behavior that hurts the hobby.

As long as we're just asserting things by pulling them out our ass or by anecdote, I have literally NEVER played with anyone who would've given even the slightest shit about (1) or (2). Of course, neither would they have been bothered if I buffed their characters up to something level appropriate. Point is, they totally don't give a shit about what sort of "difficulty level" they are playing "pretend to be elves" at.

(3) only becomes true because annoying people on the internet spew shit about how the rules aren't broken because the DM can fix it.

[Juton]

I haven't been reading the whole thread but two questions:

1) What does frozen fast mean?

2) Are we sure that Roy/Mr GC isn't Mistborn as well?

[Slade]

I haven't been reading the whole thread but two questions:

1) What does frozen fast mean?

2) Are we sure that Roy/Mr GC isn't Mistborn as well?

He is a pokemon maniac? Frozen fast is the text Frozen condition in pokemon caused by most Ice type moves, I'm not sure why he says it....
Too much Team Rocket I suppose.

[fectin]

A while ago, on a different forum, I wrote a mean-spirited take-off of Excelsior. It summarized the failures in some arguments about fighting a dragon, and ended with a cold night because I was lazy about drifting too far from the original. "And now there comes an end at last / [other poster] is frozen fast! / (His head's still firmly... well, you know) / But hear him yet! He faintly gasps: / Ignoratio!

GC and Mistborn apparently really liked that part. Probably because [other poster] was going through an especially unpleasant phase when they made accounts. I think Mistborn reposted the whole thing earlier, if you care, but I wasn't willing to slog through this thread by phone.

I'm fairly confident that Mistborn is not Roy. I'm not sure whether GC is, or if he was just trying to steal Roy's reputation; he's been trying to have it both ways across two boards. I am also fairly sure they are different people; if you're faking an argument, you don't do the weird, semi-passive sniping thing which went on in the Winning at DnD thread.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I haven't been reading the whole thread but two questions:

1) What does frozen fast mean?

2) Are we sure that Roy/Mr GC isn't Mistborn as well?

He is a pokemon maniac? Frozen fast is the text Frozen condition in pokemon caused by most Ice type moves, I'm not sure why he says it....
Too much Team Rocket I suppose.

I think he's hoping it'll grow a meaning via context through repitition. Sadly for him, heavy repetition tends to corrode meaning, not create it.

[Red_Rob]

A few points:

Arguing against the use of MTP in RPG's is confusing and makes you look like a dumbass. MTP is anything the rules don't cover, which is around 50% of a typical game. It is impossible to run almost any RPG without it. If you are arguing against the DM fudging rolls or ignoring the rules selectively when it suits him, say that. You will gain a lot more support and people won't think you have never played an RPG in your life.

Misty, you need to realise that different people play D&D for different reasons. Some people just aren't that bothered about the miniature wargame that is grafted onto the "lets pretend" bit of D&D. Sure, they will fight the monsters and like to use their cool powers, but they are really more interested in where the story is going than figuring out the optimal tactic to defeat a flying monster with ranged attacks and Greater Teleport at-will. For these people, the more you make the game about that the less interested they are, and no amount of "Smiting" will make them suddenly love counting squares or working out attack bonuses. Our group also play a lot of wargames so we are all over that shit, but I've played with groups where the idea of a battlemat would have been laughable.

Now Frank has a much more salient point, that the game should be designed so that even these players are guided towards making a character that actually has the tools required to beat the challenges they are expected to face. But, knowing that D&D has trap options for these kinds of players, this is something that you as the GM should be seeing to. Make a list of allowed classes for your game that doesn't include things you think are below the required power level. Explain to your players the level of game you are running and offer to help them with their character if you have more system knowledge than them. Write some custom feats or prestige classes that make their wacky flavourful idea actually level appropriate. But just saying "Oh, you made a TWF Ranger, how cute. SMITE!!!" makes you the dick that noone wants to play with.

Just to respond to some of the counter "arguments" that have been raised, yes it is terrible when the GM changes the rules on the fly without the players buy-in or pre-existing agreement. Yes, if the players are told that your campaign is all about the challenges and "beating" the combat game and they agree to play, and then refuse your help or assistance, and they then make a substandard character, sure they're going to get whooped. But this is in no way the same as saying:

Listen nineball if your party dies to all the monsters than you're going to have a hard time playing a game largely about killing monsters. So when you're rolling up a character it may be a good idea to make sure that you can solo at least half the monsters in your CR bracket (i.e. actually make a CR X PC).

This is the baseline, yes. But then again, if you're DMing and you realize you don't have SGT50(TM) Certified characters in the party, then you don't challenge them with enemies of that CR. There, problem solved.

No you sure as hell don't do that.

What you do is still send standard encounters at the party and let them be crushed brutally by the game. Then you set their artfully woven baskets on fire and gind their faces into the ashes. They signed up to play D&D and if you let them play pretend when D&D is too hard for them you enable the kind of person who makes the hobby worse for everyone.

If you want to have a magic tea party why are you spending $ on RPG books. You could have run your campagin just fine without them.

That is the literal position taken by Misty and I don't know why anyone is trying to defend him.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

Indeed. It's not so much that I disagree with Misty's "You Must Be This Tall To Ride" philosophy, since "This Tall" is set by the game's standard encounter rules. It's not like he's presenting the du jour loophole-exploit build and saying that his players must play that.

What I am arguing against is where he goes from there, stating directly that if player characters do not meet this standard you kill those characters. You don't allow their bad choices to bite them in the ass, you punish them for their bad choices directly by giving them encounters they can not win.

This is bad GMing. You are playing with people who are your friends and behaving in a passive-aggressive and spiteful manner. Hell, just allowing their bad choices to bite them, while not really a good way to handle a badly-written character, is still at least a reasonable solution.

A tangential beef is with his tendancy to use terms and phrases that have no goddamned meaning and act like they are first class, put you in your place insults. Noone goddamned knows what it means to be "frozen fast", and a basket-weaver is an idiotic strawman with no more validity than it's opposite number, the munchkin. So quit acting like we should be amazed at your scathing wit when you drag this bullshit out.

[K]

I've decided that Misty is doing his best parody of a Den poster. He's using meaningless words as if they were terms in order to mock our use of actual terms and is taking an exaggerated sense of superiority to comedic extremes with pointless arguments where we have actual arguments with actual points.

The only question is whether he is trying to score points on a trolling forum, fulfilling some personal desire to stir shit, is writing a paper on the psychology of trolling, or he is engaged in some form of online performance art.