You do fucking win at D&D.

[name_here]

From the map, it looks like the guy can be at most 15' from the point of impact, i.e. not far enough

[Username17]

Do you have any idea how lines work in 3.5? It goes from the outside corner of the top staircase segment in a straight line to the inside corner of the upper staircase segment. And then it keeps going in the same line, eventually striking the outside corner of the the lower staircase segment. And it hits any square it touches, so that's the entire staircase.

You don't start in the middle of the square you are in, you start in a corner of your choice. Because it's 3.5, and that is how it works.

Seriously: just hold a straightedge between the lower stairway segment outside corner and the corner with the couch, and notice how it doesn't have to pass through the central banister core to get there. Any straightedge will do. I prefer a piece of paper, but YMMV. And then accept that GC has been declared wrong by Pythagoras himself.

-Username17

[virgil]

I've already shown the line templates, and several of them is fully capable of turning a corner, and one specifically fits that staircase.

The whole reason the encounter is tough is because the sorcerer has a surprise round, and a real chance of surviving the one or two PCs likely to go before him.

Once again, the average wizard with high stats has ~24hp, and very possibly 19, and that is well within the range for a single lightning bolt from that sorcerer to take him out (possibly even with a save if the damage roll is slightly above average).

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, looking at the scale of 5 feet on there, Fireball would be terrible. Given that you need LoE to the center of the Fireball, and you can't get the center more than 20 feet away on that staircase (especially if standing at the top, where it's "U-shaped"), you'll end up blasting yourself.

So, Fireball is better than Lightning Bolt except when it isn't. And Lightning Bolt won't work, except when it would.

ITT: Roy showing even less intellectual honesty than I've seen from him in any other argument, and getting even more pissed about it when called out on it.

[Mr. GC]

So, check my math here.

The ball flies 10' down the stairs and explodes. Then, the fire goes in all directions 20'.

He's 10' away from the center, how is that NOT inside the 20' radius (ie 40' diameter)

If he is in the top left he is 15 feet away.

[RobbyPants]

So, check my math here.

The ball flies 10' down the stairs and explodes. Then, the fire goes in all directions 20'.

He's 10' away from the center, how is that NOT inside the 20' radius (ie 40' diameter)

If he is in the top left he is 15 feet away.

Yeah, but with that wall wrapping around the inside edge of the staircase, he can only cast it straight south 15'. Sure, it will travel most of the way around the staircase from the center, he's still only 15 feet away from the center of a 20 foot radius emanation. He gets hit.

Explain some way that he doesn't get hit that doesn't involve violating the rules of 3.5 lines/areas of effect and high school geometry.

[virgil]

Explain some way that he doesn't get hit that doesn't involve violating the rules of 3.5 lines/areas of effect and high school geometry.

Casts levitate, waits outside the castle and shoots in through one of the windows?

[nockermensch]

So, check my math here.

The ball flies 10' down the stairs and explodes. Then, the fire goes in all directions 20'.

He's 10' away from the center, how is that NOT inside the 20' radius (ie 40' diameter)

If he is in the top left he is 15 feet away.

Yeah, but with that wall wrapping around the inside edge of the staircase, he can only cast it straight south 15'. Sure, it will travel most of the way around the staircase from the center, he's still only 15 feet away from the center of a 20 foot radius emanation. He gets hit.

Explain some way that he doesn't get hit that doesn't involve violating the rules of 3.5 lines/areas of effect and high school geometry.

Only weaksauce sorcerers aren't immune to their own spells, and I don't even have to explain exactly this works, so go suck a barrel of cocks, sir.

In other words, the "If he is in the top left he is 15 feet away" quote, in a why fireball is better context may be the clown's best indication that he's completely out of his depth regarding actual D&D. I know I just complained that it's 2012 and you guys are still feeding the troll, but this is a lolcow that just keeps on giving.

[Kaelik]

If by 10 you mean 9, you are correct.

If by 10 I mean 10, I am also write. Bugbear +1 Monstrous HD Sorcerer 6 is a lower CR than Bugbear Sorcerer 7.

Hey dumb shit. I didn't say it was. Those were two separate ideas. You know, since you mentioned Mass Resist and Wings of STFU.

No, you said that the module should have been written with with him casting Wings of Flurry, except that you are apparently allergic to actually calling it by its real name, and to do that, they would have to use material not from SpC.

No, if you actually look at it you see that the tower is cut into two parts. And if you look at it like it were a clock, here's how that goes:

And if you knew how lines work in D&D, you'd be able to figure out that you can draw a line from the inside low vertice to the bottom of the stairwell.

If you cannot seriously see how you deal with 59 HP and AC 15 (holy fuck, and I was being charitable and assuming 19 because I think he had one shitty buff) in one round when he cannot cast defensively at all

Once again, you have to show how a single PC can run up to him (not charge) and do 59 damage, or for the matter, 59 damage on the first attack and an AoO. Because he will just fucking move back, take you 10 damage AoO, and then kill you all with the second lightning bolt (or only kill half of you, because that is still a problem.)

This is the sort of encounter where you could have a Monk derp step up to him and give him a hug and have that shit actually work and just shut him down on the spot.

Level 5 Monks cannot outgrabble Bugbears.

And Bugbear Sorcerers can be made to not suck. I already showed you one way that's possible.

And I already told you that no one cares. Yes, you can make a CR 9 enemy a threat to level 5 PCs especially if you have it fight them at the same times as a CR 5 monster, and several Wargs and Hobgoblins. I mean, you probably actually can't get his touch AC to 20, but that hardly matters.

Still no one cares. We all know it's possible to make him harder, hell I can do it without increasing his CR. But that's not a good thing, the party having even a chance of dying is bad, not good.

[Mr. GC]

If by 10 you mean 9, you are correct.

If by 10 I mean 10, I am also write. Bugbear +1 Monstrous HD Sorcerer 6 is a lower CR than Bugbear Sorcerer 7.

"Advancement: By character class"

You are write indeed. Very wrong, but write.

No, you said that the module should have been written with with him casting Wings of Flurry, except that you are apparently allergic to actually calling it by its real name, and to do that, they would have to use material not from SpC.

Bitch, please. The Den's alternate name might as well be Snarky Names for Everything, so don't start crying because I called Wings of Flurry Wings of STFU.

Once again, you have to show how a single PC can run up to him (not charge) and do 59 damage, or for the matter, 59 damage on the first attack and an AoO. Because he will just fucking move back, take you 10 damage AoO, and then kill you all with the second lightning bolt (or only kill half of you, because that is still a problem.)

If you had non shit tier melee, not only would you be doing a lot more than 10 damage with an AoO (What the fuck, your melee runs 14 Str and no damage bonuses? Do you outsource your melee to unbuffed quarterstaff Wizards?), but you'd have any amount of reach, in which case you have an attack range of "tower radius" and therefore the lolsorc with no Concentration goes ahead and jumps out of the tower (and probably dies to the AoO) because there's absolutely no way he could take the party on there.

Of course it'd be better if, as soon as he heard the confusion outside he went upstairs, leaned out that hole and started Fireballing. But since you insist on justifying Lightning Bolt's existence we'll go with that.

Level 5 Monks cannot outgrabble Bugbears.

They can when they have low BAB and low Str. Total grapple mod = 8. Even a goddamn Monk can beat that. You get 11 unbuffed and without trying at all.

And I already told you that no one cares. Yes, you can make a CR 9 enemy a threat to level 5 PCs especially if you have it fight them at the same times as a CR 5 monster, and several Wargs and Hobgoblins. I mean, you probably actually can't get his touch AC to 20, but that hardly matters.

CR 8, actually, but that's beside the point. All the mooks are just filler anyways, in some cases they actively make the encounter worse by existing (the Worgs would be more dangerous if they weren't babysitting their lol 2 damage riders, who use ranged attacks of that "quality" while fighting in close quarters, also the only reason he likely doesn't have Fireball is so he doesn't kill his own trash troops with it).

And lol, 20 touch AC is easy. I'll give you a hint. He's a SORCERER that is level EIGHT.

A good player can figure this out instantly based on that information. You'll of course come up with nothing, deny that something exists, and then I'll post again to rofflestomp you for it.

Still no one cares. We all know it's possible to make him harder, hell I can do it without increasing his CR. But that's not a good thing, the party having even a chance of dying is bad, not good.

"The party having even a chance of dying is bad, not good."

I was wondering why you side with the basket weavers. Now I know. You're just the same. Welcome to the fail herd Kaelik.

The rest of us will be winning at the big boy table.

[nockermensch]

"The party having even a chance of dying is bad, not good."

I was wondering why you side with the basket weavers. Now I know. You're just the same. Welcome to the fail herd Kaelik.

The rest of us will be winning at the big boy table.

"The rest of us will be winning at the big boy table. "

You can't make up shit like this. It's like The Den got its own personal Hal Turner or Paul Christoforo.

[name_here]

So, a level eight sorcerer can get 20 touch AC via +2 from magic circle against foo, +1 from haste, +4 from dex, +2 from boosted dex from Cat's Grace... 19 touch AC. He could put it up to 20 by subbing in a +3 ring of protection or +3 from Shield of Faith cast by a 6th level cleric. If flat-footed or otherwise denied dex to AC, it falls to 13.

[Mr. GC]

So, a level eight sorcerer can get 20 touch AC via +2 from magic circle against foo, +1 from haste, +4 from dex, +2 from boosted dex from Cat's Grace... 19 touch AC. He could put it up to 20 by subbing in a +3 ring of protection or +3 from Shield of Faith cast by a 6th level cleric. If flat-footed or otherwise denied dex to AC, it falls to 13.

No, that's not the method. I emphasized two words for a reason.

[RobbyPants]

I think this sums up most of the thread:

[nockermensch]

I think this sums up most of the thread:

You're being facetious now. From the very start this thread has been about sorcerers having touch AC 20trolling the den.

[name_here]

I did locate another way by which sorcerers can get touch AC 20 at level eight specifically. Now to see if G.C. knows what it is before I discuss it further.

[Mr. GC]

Not to interrupt a good herp derp session, but allow me to smash your stupidity with these neat things called deductive reasoning and logic. See, I emphasized the words (level) eight sorcerer, as though they were the key factors.

Now I'm going to walk you through this very slowly, as I wouldn't want to break your small minds. Ready? No? Too fucking bad.

What defines a Sorcerer? Spells, obviously. But almost every spell available to a Sorcerer is also available to a Wizard, and the few that are not do not affect touch AC. So that's not it.

So what then would be specific to a level 8 Sorcerer? And the only answer is alternate class features. A quick search of the mental library for a good player or a quick Google for a weaker one gives you Divine Companion, which you can store up to caster level spell levels in and then discharge for +x deflection AC and +x resistance to saves. If you are level 8, this means +8 touch AC... round it off with an easy 14 Dex and 20. You could do much better if you tried, for example Practiced Spellcaster, or any other touch AC buffs.

Now if you were on my level, you could follow this thought process in about a second or two at the absolute most. You could easily figure out these things, just as I do.

I am teaching you to fish now, so you can stop making shit tier parties and posting irrelevant babbling posts and win D&D like me.

I'm on a Cauchemar.

[name_here]

Shielding (Su): As a swift action, you can order the creature to convert the energy it has stored into protecting you. This is the equivalent of an abjuration spell that provides you with a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus on saves each equal to the number of stored spell levels, or as many levels as you designate (up to the maximum currently stored). This effect lasts for 1 round per arcane caster level you possess.

If you're going to act like you've always got something, locate something with a duration of at least 1min/caster level, because you might plausibly have that up before your first action in a combat.

[Mr. GC]

Shielding (Su): As a swift action, you can order the creature to convert the energy it has stored into protecting you. This is the equivalent of an abjuration spell that provides you with a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus on saves each equal to the number of stored spell levels, or as many levels as you designate (up to the maximum currently stored). This effect lasts for 1 round per arcane caster level you possess.

If you're going to act like you've always got something, locate something with a duration of at least 1min/caster level, because you might plausibly have that up before your first action in a combat.

Do tell, what are the fourth and fifth words of the text you have just quoted?

Now consider:

The way things are set up, unless you go fly in invisible through that hole in the tower and gank Koth he will know you're coming and indeed all this assuming he's waiting with a readied action anything assumes he's ready firing off a Swift action is easy.
This is considered an Abjuration effect. Need I spell out this one as well?

[name_here]

Oh, you were talking about Koth, the guy in the module that does not use and indeed predates the sourcebook that alternate class feature exists in. I thought you were talking about the PCs who would be unable to use a swift action until after Koth's turn.

So, uh, you're even wronger than I imagined.

[Mr. GC]

Oh, you were talking about Koth, the guy in the module that does not use and indeed predates the sourcebook that alternate class feature exists in. I thought you were talking about the PCs who would be unable to use a swift action until after Koth's turn.

So, uh, you're even wronger than I imagined.

Yes, we were talking about non shit tier Koth. Who is level 8, has a touch AC of 20, and whose favorite thing is announcing himself by casting Wings of STFU on the entire party from his formerly invisible position in mid air somewhere.

Why would you even assume I was talking about the party, given that even if a party was a Sorcerer, or all Sorcerers, and was level 8 even though they'd be 5... possibly 6 touch AC in no way helps vs Lightning Bolt so... what the fuck kind of fucked up logic train are you riding right now? Sure it also boosts saves, which would help, but I never said a single thing about that. But if I were talking about the party using this, and not a non shit tier Koth, and if that were somehow relevant they could have turned it on at some earlier point during the fight. Unless the definition of Team Derp has expanded beyond "does not move away from things that hurt them" and "dies in two hits to weak attacks" to also include "does not activate buffs they easily can activate in advance"?

[rasmuswagner]

A quick search of the mental library for a good player or a quick Google for a weaker one gives you Divine Companion, which you can store up to caster level spell levels in and then discharge for +x deflection AC and +x resistance to saves. If you are level 8, this means +8 touch AC... round it off with an easy 14 Dex and 20. You could do much better if you tried, for example Practiced Spellcaster, or any other touch AC buffs.

Now if you were on my level, you could follow this thought process in about a second or two at the absolute most. You could easily figure out these things, just as I do.

I could not be this retarded if I tried. Fucking Divine Companion, dude? Really? Really?

You're either shadzar stupid or....hell, even if you are "just trolling lol", you're still a fucking moron.

[Mr. GC]

A quick search of the mental library for a good player or a quick Google for a weaker one gives you Divine Companion, which you can store up to caster level spell levels in and then discharge for +x deflection AC and +x resistance to saves. If you are level 8, this means +8 touch AC... round it off with an easy 14 Dex and 20. You could do much better if you tried, for example Practiced Spellcaster, or any other touch AC buffs.

Now if you were on my level, you could follow this thought process in about a second or two at the absolute most. You could easily figure out these things, just as I do.

I could not be this retarded if I tried. Fucking Divine Companion, dude? Really? Really?

You're either shadzar stupid or....hell, even if you are "just trolling lol", you're still a fucking moron.

Because you'd know all about trying to be retarded right?

But do tell, what exactly makes Divine Companion inferior to the familiar you'd get instead? What exactly makes +2 to one save at best better than +8 touch AC and all saves in any combat that matters?

I eagerly await your foot munching response.

[Username17]

But do tell, what exactly makes Divine Companion inferior to the familiar you'd get instead? What exactly makes +2 to one save at best better than +8 touch AC and all saves in any combat that matters?

You know that Divine Companion chews up spell slots, right? And not like one or two, it takes 8 fucking spell levels to achieve that shockingly underwhelming effect. Getting a non-stacking named bonus to saves and AC in one fight for a Swift Action once per day is moderately OK. Getting a non-stacking named bonus to saves and AC in one fight a day in exchange for your familiar is totally reasonable. Trading in 15% of your daily spellcasting for a modest boost to saves and AC for one battle is fucking terrible.

Instead of taking Divine Companion, you could just not do that. Learn some defensive magic and fucking cast it with actual spell slots. Take your familiar slot and get a familiar that gives you a bonus to Appraise or something. I don't give a fuck, you'll still be ahead of the game. Divine Companion is disadvantageous to have.

Divine Companion is the kind of thing that people fap to on CharOp boards because it can technically give you a bonus that is very large. The bonus is way overpriced, and it doesn't last very long, but it is bigger than other sources of bonuses with that name are. So if you are doing some stupid shit like "make the biggest AC you can think of!" or something, Divine Companion could totally come up. But outside of circle jerk CharOp contests, no one uses Divine Companion because it is fucking horrible.

-Username17

[Mr. GC]

But do tell, what exactly makes Divine Companion inferior to the familiar you'd get instead? What exactly makes +2 to one save at best better than +8 touch AC and all saves in any combat that matters?

You know that Divine Companion chews up spell slots, right? And not like one or two, it takes 8 fucking spell levels to achieve that shockingly underwhelming effect. Getting a non-stacking named bonus to saves and AC in one fight for a Swift Action once per day is moderately OK. Getting a non-stacking named bonus to saves and AC in one fight a day in exchange for your familiar is totally reasonable. Trading in 15% of your daily spellcasting for a modest boost to saves and AC for one battle is fucking terrible.

Instead of taking Divine Companion, you could just not do that. Learn some defensive magic and fucking cast it with actual spell slots. Take your familiar slot and get a familiar that gives you a bonus to Appraise or something. I don't give a fuck, you'll still be ahead of the game. Divine Companion is disadvantageous to have.

Divine Companion is the kind of thing that people fap to on CharOp boards because it can technically give you a bonus that is very large. The bonus is way overpriced, and it doesn't last very long, but it is bigger than other sources of bonuses with that name are. So if you are doing some stupid shit like "make the biggest AC you can think of!" or something, Divine Companion could totally come up. But outside of circle jerk CharOp contests, no one uses Divine Companion because it is fucking horrible.

-Username17

First of all, fuck the CharOp boards, most of them are about as clueless as the people here are being.

That said, you use it in any fight that matters. Meaning if it's just some bullshit routine at level fight, or even like level +1 or +2 you don't use it. If it's level +3, +4, +5, +6... something that actually counts, then you do.

...Or you can be an NPC, like Koth, at which point you get in exactly one fight and therefore large bonuses for one fight are fucking perfect even with no mitigating factors whatsoever.