Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Archmage Joda]

Speaking of Create Undead and Planar Binding, I recently had the idea for a pathfinder cleric that is basically a master of minionmancy, be it undead, summons, or animated objects. So basically, how would one make the most pimped out master of minions using only pathfinder material?

[Avoraciopoctules]

There's a Devil subdomain that gives you planar binding, which synergizes reasonably well with diplomacy for obvious reasons and animate dead because you can still turn failed bindings into useful minions.

[Archmage Joda]

Adding to what I said about the idea, what I have so far is:

-Domain choices of Artifice (Construct) and Void (Dark Tapestry) for the animate objects and summon enhancing special abilities
-Alignment somewhere along the edge of the table for the sake of sacred summons
-Augment Summons, Supreme Summoning, and Sacred Summons as feats taken

But beyond these bits, along with knowing to use Desecrate before using Animate Dead, what else should be added on? What alignment would be best suited? Also, would it be worth it to prestige class for a few levels after level 8 to try to pick up Blood Money onto my cleric list?

[Seerow]

So, not sure if this is the right place for this but...

DSP is doing a playtest of their MoI conversion. And it seriously hits everything that was wrong with Incarnum to start with. It's sad because I liked the Psionics and ToB conversions enough I've considered buying them even though I don't play Pathfinder. But this is just... meh.

[ubernoob]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/co2i27hemdi9k ... aytest.pdf
In case anyone wants to do a point by point analysis. I can't be bothered as it's a combination of pathfinder (which I hate for fiddly crap), incarnum (which I hate for fiddly crap), and dreamscarred press (who people seem to like, but I can't be fucked to give a shit about).

[OgreBattle]

After rigorous playtesting, Pathfinder has identified an overpowered feat that made unarmed and/or one-hand weapon users too good:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qlnd?Crane ... t-printing

Original:

Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.

Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.

Errata:

Benefit: Once per round, when fighting defensively with at least one hand free, you can designate one melee
attack being made against you before the roll is made.
You receive a +4 dodge bonus to AC against that attack.
If you using the total defense action instead, you can
def lect one melee attack that would normally hit you.
An attack so deflected deals no damage and has no other
effect (instead treat it as a miss). You do not expend an
action when using this feat, but you must be aware of the
attack and not flat-footed.

This also affects the next feat in the Crane chain

Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th.

Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.

Supporters of the erratta say that the whole feat chain was "Too synergistic" thus overpowered. Pathfinder Society GM's also post in that discussion about how happy they are to drink the delicious tears of dirty min/maxers.

[NineInchNall]

Why do people hate it when non-casters can, like, do things?

[OgreBattle]

Why do people hate it when non-casters can, like, do things?

I want my water-balloon-throwing fighter to be able to deal the same damage as a longbow-shooting fighter. Why does Pathfinder have trap options for some ranged characters?

SKR closed the threat for uncivil behavior (people not agreeing with the errata)

[Dean]

Yeah I mean, if you spent 5 feats on something it'd be pretty OP to let it synergize or work. It's almost still OP! Letting you sacrifice your entire turn to potentially be allowed to make an attack of opportunity.

You could afford this by 10th level if you set every feat on fire to do it. What could a Fire Giant possibly do against it? Soak your d10+str hit with his 142hp? Throw a rock at you which neither your bonuses or retaliation ability affect at all? Hit you with his other 2 attacks that he gets? Walk away and fight someone more threatening than a stifled fart?

[Longes]

Christ, there's more errata and rule tweaks to Pathfinder than to a fucking MMO. And they don't download themself into your old books. How are people supposed to come to a table and have the knowledge of the same rules?!

EDIT:
Took me a while to realise that

Thank you Paizo for turning this feat into something reasonable.

wasn't a sarcasm.

[TOZ]

Most of Pathfinder is Magical Tea Party while ignoring rules you don't like. Knowledge of the system is not required and often discouraged.

[GâtFromKI]

Supporters of the erratta say that the whole feat chain was "Too synergistic" thus overpowered.

Sure, now the synergy is perfectly balanced: if you take the total defense action, you can't make attack of opportunity, and if you're fighting defensively, you can't deflect opponent's attack.

Pathfinder Society GM's also post in that discussion about how happy they are to drink the delicious tears of dirty min/maxers.

The main problem with paizo and paizils is that they hate Pathfinder's players.


----
Well, time to design some new exciting Paizo-synergistic feats:

Power defense
Prerequisite: power attack, some shit.
Effect: the AC bonus you gain from using power attack is doubled.

perfect spell
Prequisite: quicken spell
Description: you know how to quickly empower your spell
Effect: each time you cast a spell using the quicken spell feat, you may spend a swift action to add an other metamagic effect for free.

[RadiantPhoenix]

Well, time to design some new exciting Paizo-synergistic feats:

Power defense
Prerequisite: power attack, some shit.
Effect: the AC bonus you gain from using power attack is doubled.

perfect spell
Prequisite: quicken spell
Description: you know how to quickly empower your spell
Effect: each time you cast a spell using the quicken spell feat, you may spend a swift action to add an other metamagic effect for free.

There's something odd about these feats that I can't quite place....

Is it the missing captialization?

[MisterDee]

SKR closed the threat for uncivil behavior (people not agreeing with the errata)

Thread reopened, with extra (hilariously stupid) justifications from Jason.

Basically, the PFS GMs wanted it changed.

[OgreBattle]

SKR closed the threat for uncivil behavior (people not agreeing with the errata)

Thread reopened, with extra (hilariously stupid) justifications from Jason.

Basically, the PFS GMs wanted it changed.

I've started a thread to help Jason Bulmahn fix up more horribly unbalanced AC exploits that can be achieved at level 5 with Pathfinder rules.

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Please do not link threads from other forums.
[/TGFBS]

[zugschef]

I've started a thread to help Jason Bulmahn fix up more horribly unbalanced AC exploits that can be achieved at level 5 with Pathfinder rules.

[ Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Please do not link threads from other forums.
[/TGFBS]

You're a hardcore troll.

[Seerow]

SKR closed the threat for uncivil behavior (people not agreeing with the errata)

Thread reopened, with extra (hilariously stupid) justifications from Jason.

Basically, the PFS GMs wanted it changed.

I've started a thread to help Jason Bulmahn fix up more horribly unbalanced AC exploits that can be achieved at level 5 with Pathfinder rules.

[ Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Please do not link threads from other forums.
[/TGFBS]

A level 5 sorcerer with CHA 20 can cast Mirror image 3 times per long rest, that's the potential to negate only 3-12 attacks, with each casting lasting only 5 minutes. Crane's Wing is usable every round (6 seconds), that's a maximum potential of negating 14,400 melee attacks for 24 hours a day!

I'm dying

[PoliteNewb]

Yeah I mean, if you spent 5 feats on something it'd be pretty OP to let it synergize or work. It's almost still OP! Letting you sacrifice your entire turn to potentially be allowed to make an attack of opportunity.

You could afford this by 10th level if you set every feat on fire to do it. What could a Fire Giant possibly do against it? Soak your d10+str hit with his 142hp? Throw a rock at you which neither your bonuses or retaliation ability affect at all? Hit you with his other 2 attacks that he gets? Walk away and fight someone more threatening than a stifled fart?

Well, you can get it at 2nd level by using Master of Many Styles archetype...but it's definitely not overpowered, even at 2nd level. It's like Deflect Arrows for melee; when was the last time anybody called Deflect Arrows overpowered? Or even worth taking?

[Seerow]

Yeah I mean, if you spent 5 feats on something it'd be pretty OP to let it synergize or work. It's almost still OP! Letting you sacrifice your entire turn to potentially be allowed to make an attack of opportunity.

You could afford this by 10th level if you set every feat on fire to do it. What could a Fire Giant possibly do against it? Soak your d10+str hit with his 142hp? Throw a rock at you which neither your bonuses or retaliation ability affect at all? Hit you with his other 2 attacks that he gets? Walk away and fight someone more threatening than a stifled fart?

Well, you can get it at 2nd level by using Master of Many Styles archetype...but it's definitely not overpowered, even at 2nd level. It's like Deflect Arrows for melee; when was the last time anybody called Deflect Arrows overpowered? Or even worth taking?

Last I checked Deflect Arrows didn't even require you to fight defensively to use it, so it should be strictly better.

[virgil]

Last I checked Deflect Arrows didn't even require you to fight defensively to use it, so it should be strictly better.

You are way, way more likely to subject to a melee attack than a projectile attack, so Deflect Arrows being better is justifiable. It being this much better is a different story.

[NineInchNall]

Last I checked Deflect Arrows didn't even require you to fight defensively to use it, so it should be strictly better.

You are way, way more likely to subject to a melee attack than a projectile attack, so Deflect Arrows being better is justifiable. It being this much better is a different story.

That works only if Deflect Arrows is good. If Deflect Arrows is underpowered, the relative utility of avoiding melee attacks rather than ranged ones is irrelevant.

[sake]

You are way, way more likely to subject to a melee attack than a projectile attack, so Deflect Arrows being better is justifiable. It being this much better is a different story.

Also, the guy with the bow is almost never the Hero or the Big Bad Evil Guy so no one cares about you avoiding some peon's ranged attacks, hell, you're suppose to do that since he's just some no-name extra and you're a named character. But if you make so that the important guy with a sword or axe can't hit you, well, that's just going against the narrative, and is clearly overpowered.

[OgreBattle]

"Water Balloon" is the keyword of SKR design

[ Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Please do not link threads from other forums.
[/TGFBS]

[MisterDee]

That water balloon post was unbelievable.

Really, this particular debacle has me asking two questions:

1-Is the Pathfinder design team made up entirely of the kind of guys who always played wizards in 2e, and got frustrated because the campaigns never got to the point where their wizard got to be useful? It would certainly explain, well, the entirety of Pathfinder.

2-Has design abilities ever been a factor in hiring people to work around D&D, or is that entire design crowd just the Seattle gaming shop barnacles?

[rasmuswagner]

I think delivering on wordcount, on deadline, without a single rant about transsexual jews in the white house, makes you a professional by game design standards.