Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[zugschef]

"Water Balloon" is the keyword of SKR design

[ Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Please do not link threads from other forums.
[/TGFBS]

...Okay. So now I want to know, was I the only one who passed my Sense Motive check to interpret OgreBattle's post as ironic criticism, or did I just fail it utterly?

Pure gold right there.

[Cyberzombie]

1-Is the Pathfinder design team made up entirely of the kind of guys who always played wizards in 2e, and got frustrated because the campaigns never got to the point where their wizard got to be useful? It would certainly explain, well, the entirety of Pathfinder.

They're playing to their fanbase. The whole point of PF is to continue the 3E experience. Their fanbase was okay with warriors sucking in 3E, and they're okay with them sucking in Pathfinder. And thus far that design philosophy is working.

Pathfinder isn't about innovation, it's about maintaining the status quo.

[OgreBattle]

A level 5 sorcerer with CHA 20 can cast Mirror image 3 times per long rest, that's the potential to negate only 3-12 attacks, with each casting lasting only 5 minutes. Crane's Wing is usable every round (6 seconds), that's a maximum potential of negating 14,400 melee attacks for 24 hours a day!

I'm dying

No specifically, but mirror image is a known quantity for us. It is range personal, easily foiled by some relatively common spells, brought down on a miss, and generally limited to a pair of character classes that are not exactly known for rushing into combat.

Lets stay on topic.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

See, that man knows his maths.

Mirror Image is easily taken out by COMMON spells. Can you even NAME a level 2-5 spell that nullifies the defenses of pre-errata crane wing??

[Longes]

A level 5 sorcerer with CHA 20 can cast Mirror image 3 times per long rest, that's the potential to negate only 3-12 attacks, with each casting lasting only 5 minutes. Crane's Wing is usable every round (6 seconds), that's a maximum potential of negating 14,400 melee attacks for 24 hours a day!

I'm dying

No specifically, but mirror image is a known quantity for us. It is range personal, easily foiled by some relatively common spells, brought down on a miss, and generally limited to a pair of character classes that are not exactly known for rushing into combat.

Lets stay on topic.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

See, that man knows his maths.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he says that ignoring the AC game is fine if you weren't going to participate in it often anyway? Maybe permanenced Mirror Image should be a feat. Caster-only Mirror Style.

[OgreBattle]

Pathfinder's lead designer symbolically devoured "Crane Wings" in honor of the new errata:
https://www.facebook.com/JasonBulmahn/p ... eam_ref=10

Some fans sent that to us some Pizza and Chicken Wings as a thanks for interacting with the community and being good sports on the boards. It was a thanks.. and a light hearted joke.

I am not mocking anyone by eating lunch. I thought it was funny and posted up a pick on my fan page to share the joke and offer my thanks.

That is all...

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

(and they even had the pizza place print out the "Crane Wings" bit and stick them on the boxes)

[name_here]

Mirror Image is easily taken out by COMMON spells. Can you even NAME a level 2-5 spell that nullifies the defenses of pre-errata crane wing??

I know you're joking, but yes

[virgil]

You're forgetting an even more obvious one.

[MisterDee]

Heh. This one is level one, it's even from Ultimate Combat and not only prevents the Crane Winging but is also a good debuff in its own right.

[Slade]

You are way, way more likely to subject to a melee attack than a projectile attack, so Deflect Arrows being better is justifiable. It being this much better is a different story.

Also, the guy with the bow is almost never the Hero or the Big Bad Evil Guy so no one cares about you avoiding some peon's ranged attacks, hell, you're suppose to do that since he's just some no-name extra and you're a named character. But if you make so that the important guy with a sword or axe can't hit you, well, that's just going against the narrative, and is clearly overpowered.

But Legolas was a Bow guy...and he was a hero.


And does Jason even remember Bards get Mirror Image, use swords proficiently, and do rush into combat?
Heck, he made the Magus class that do it too.

[Longes]

What's the evil cleric's path to ultimate power in Pathfinder?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Take a deity with the Void domain and Charm or Darkness. Summon up a bunch of undead critters and bind demons with the Planar Binding line from Void. At higher levels you need extra muscle, abuse Animate Objects -- it's crazy good in Pathfinder if, as usual, you do the legwork ahead of time.

If your game is going to end at low levels, stick with Charm and Darkness instead of Void. If your game is going to last for at least 3 levels above level 7, replace one of them with Void. Strongly consider going Veiled Illusionist. If your game is going to at least work through around levels 10 to 12, strongly consider snagging a familiar with one of the Wondrous Figurine familiar feats and investing in Rods of Familiar Spell + Pearls of Power.

Blaster clerics are berserkly strong in Pathfinder. The only real nerfs they've gotten in Pathfinder is that Pathfinder DMs are encouraged to fake amnesia when you bring up backwards compatibility, that Turning Undead is a stupid pet trick that now costs a feat, and that Slay Living and Destruction got nerfed. Command Undead also costs a feat, but it still retains a lot of its usefulness. Of course, Greater Command completely blows Slay Living out of the water (and Wall of Stone and Plane Shift still work as intended), so big deal. And considering that Blaster clerics were the strongest cleric build in 3.5E...

If you want some added muscle to the Blaster Cleric you can fit a Cleric Archer chassis on it really easily without giving up too much of your blasting capabilities. The only thing Cleric Archers really miss in Pathfinder are the animated shields, spell-storing arrows (a huge loss, but I've met no DMs that would allow it in 3.5E anyway), and Divine Power. But since Cleric Archers can easily dish out 5 attacks/round by level 9 without Divine Power or giving up caster levels, who gives a fuck?

[sake]

If you want some added muscle to the Blaster Cleric you can fit a Cleric Archer chassis on it really easily without giving up too much of your blasting capabilities. The only thing Cleric Archers really miss in Pathfinder are the animated shields, spell-storing arrows (a huge loss, but I've met no DMs that would allow it in 3.5E anyway), and Divine Power. But since Cleric Archers can easily dish out 5 attacks/round by level 9 without Divine Power or giving up caster levels, who gives a fuck?

I'm assuming by 'blaster cleric' you mean a cleric who's an offensive caster instead of the more usual self-buffing magic beatstick, and not an actual blaster cleric who tosses out direct damage spells. If not, I totally want to see this build, because playing a Lazer Cleric in pathfinder would be hilarious and it will totally be my next character.

Also I would think the loss of Zen Archery would hurt the PF Cleric Archer the most.

[OgreBattle]

How can I turn into a swarm of bees in Pathfinder.
Or summon them, or have them as a pet?

[Username17]

Also I would think the loss of Zen Archery would hurt the PF Cleric Archer the most.

Not really, no.

-Username17

[CCarter]

Found this, thought I'd mention in case of any interest to anyone - someone's compiled a list of abilities which let characters substitute ability score mods in place of other ability score mods:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o91 ... edit?pli=1#

[Lago PARANOIA]

Alternatively, if your DM allows the Guided Weapon enhancement then unarmed strikes are a pretty good way at higher levels to fight in melee.

It's an expensive combo to get up and running but it's cheaper in the long run. Basically, you need:

Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes
Alternate-slotted Forge Fist Amulets
Alternate-slotted Fire Fist Amulets
Amulet of Mighty Fists (Note that Pathfinder lets you make +0 Amulets of Mighty Fists)
Monk's Belt of course.
And finally, there's regular-ass enchanted gauntlets. I recommend snagging special abilities that do not grant extra goodness if placed on both weapons such as Guardian or Courageous. Bodywraps get enchantments like Spell-Storing.

Fucking exponential item costs.

You can then back that ass up with ridiculousness like Conductive + Repose Domain or just trick out Blood Crow Strike.

Be warned that going the Unarmed Ass-Kicker route requires more of a feat investment than Cleric Archer to get up and running and in fact won't really start to bear fruit until around level 10 or so.

[Longes]

Be warned that going the Unarmed Ass-Kicker route requires more of a feat investment than Cleric Archer to get up and running and in fact won't really start to bear fruit until around level 10 or so.

But you'll be able to troll your friend who decided to play monk

[sake]

Found this, thought I'd mention in case of any interest to anyone - someone's compiled a list of abilities which let characters substitute ability score mods in place of other ability score mods:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o91 ... edit?pli=1#

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-cl ... ooded/sage
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-t ... philosophy
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-tr ... -activator

Wow... I never realized this before, but I have had a life long desire to play a Sorcerer that uses CHA as a dump stat. Because seriously, fuck that 'it represents your force of will' shit

[Lago PARANOIA]

Yeah, but replacing Arcane Bond with Arcane Bolt is like replacing your silk underwear with an electrified chastity belt. Worn inside-out. Pass.

[Koumei]

[quote="Longes]But you'll be able to troll your friend who decided to play monk :D[/quote]

Only until they're given a magic amulet that turns them into a Dire Tiger.

[Lago PARANOIA]

By the way.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/won ... e-heritage

If you have a high enough UMD check, you can grab a bunch of great bloodline powers really cheap. It's much cheaper than actually spending money on, say, inherent bonus items.

The best thing about this hack is that there's no way Pathfinder can fix this problem without completely gutting the Use Magic Device skill. Even if they hotpatch this particular item, Pathfinder has a ton of this crap.

[OgreBattle]

So on the Paizo board I asked "I've gotten the impression that Pathfinder society strongly relies on sword swinging antagonists to provide a challenge, but once that melee strike is nullified it becomes a cake walk. So if your average Pathfinder Society villain had to fight a duel against a swarm of bees for some reason, would he be able to survive?"

The Consensus:

I decided to look at season 3 (because I have it), and see how many could survive!

I got ~29 BBEG would die horribly to the swarm
Also, ~15 BBEG would survive the swarm.

I counted each tier instead of by scenario. In one case, the upper tier dies to the swarm and the lower tier does not!

Nerf bees (sarcasm)

---

I'd say about 50% of PFS villains would actually wind up being forced to withdraw from a simple swarm of bees. The other half are spellcasters that are, nine times out of ten, presented as solo encounters for some unfathomable reason. Bees'll get toasted, but uh.. lone caster versus group of bloodthirsty adventurers? Splat. Come to think of it one of the meanest bosses in any scenario I've ever played was purely melee. ... And now I've got a mental image of a stone giant fleeing in terror from bees.

Now I want to play PFS games as a swarm Alchemist that has bees come out of his mouth. I asked about swarm optimization and got this:

Play a Witch. Be level 7.

Be master of Vomit Swarm.

It is a Conjuration (Summoning) spell.

Augment Summoning will make them slightly more robust (14 more HP), though sadly will do naught for the damage. More survivable for when/if they bust out the AoE spells and such though, which is a plus.

Dip a level of Druid.

Grab Sunlight Summons and Moonlight Summons so your beasties aren't worthless against everything with DR/Magic or DR/Silver.

And, err, not much support for summon spells that aren't Summon Monster, sadly.

Quicken it for two, maybe?

Wonder if stuff like Sickening Spell works with summons?

Are there better ways?
I think the earliest use of diminutive swarms is a spider swarm as a level 2 spell. Swarm of Wasps comes online at caster level 7.

[rasmuswagner]

By the way.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/won ... e-heritage

If you have a high enough UMD check, you can grab a bunch of great bloodline powers really cheap. It's much cheaper than actually spending money on, say, inherent bonus items.

The best thing about this hack is that there's no way Pathfinder can fix this problem without completely gutting the Use Magic Device skill. Even if they hotpatch this particular item, Pathfinder has a ton of this crap.

You say completely gutting it, I call it "enforcing common sense interpretation". $UNDEFINED plus four is still $UNDEFINED.

[rasmuswagner]

Now I want to play PFS games as a swarm Alchemist that has bees come out of his mouth. I asked about swarm optimization and got this:

Play a Witch. Be level 7.

Be master of Vomit Swarm.

Feat +1, other feat +2, trait +1....we can get wasp swarms at level 3.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.