The Shadowrun Situation

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:35 am

http://old.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/200 ... developer/

It is basically a summary of Jason's understanding of the setting. Which fails on many levels, and which he has never actually attempted (as far as cyberpunk or noir as discernible genres) to ever put into practice, or show any real conception of what they are.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:25 am

Shadowrun's malleability makes for poor market speak summaries, so for once I'm not all that incensed by the words coming from that particular corner of the internet. Still, I would agree that noir is a goofy word to be throwing around since the term is thematically vague yet just barely aesthetically specific enough that applying it broadly to Shadowrun doesn't really fit the way people seem to think it does.

I mean, let's face it: the Shadowrun universe can get pretty nuckin' futs and if your group is liberally larded with players who are attached to older editions you can expect a lot of '80s baggage to boot. It's not unprecedented at all for your Street Samurai to start the day out as a Michael Mann character when suddenly a John Carpenter movie breaks out. It's a weird game.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:47 am

Nächstes Preview

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:08 am

it's combaty stuff.
armor does not stack anymore it seems.
electrical damage does not get the "don't taze me bro" roll anymore as far as i have read.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:02 am

I've never been a convention guy. That's a bit of a setback professionally when it comes to roleplaying games: the people that go and help out and run games at conventions get invited to sit down with the people running the company, develop personal relationships with them. Catalyst has a strong convention presence, I missed out on a lot of freelancer meetings and big changes because I wouldn't or couldn't go to things like Origins or GenCon or DragonCon.

Blah blah blah Oh For Fuck's Sake:

Origins wrote:Hall of Fame Inductees
Lisa Stevens, Paizo Publishing
Loren Coleman, Catalyst Game Labs

Link

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:28 am

Is it the embezzlement hall of fame?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:39 am

i'm still laughing in disbelief that the NDA is still in place, even though people already own the first books of SR5 . .

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:48 pm

Stahlseele wrote:i'm still laughing in disbelief that the NDA is still in place, even though people already own the first books of SR5 . .

To my understanding they're now able to talk about anything in the book, but discussions that took place in writing the book, alternate ideas that were put forth, and so on, are still under NDA, and it's very possible that NDA won't ever be lifted.

Dragon Instincts · Post by **Dragon Instincts** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:28 pm

I've found a first review of SR5:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39005

Seems like the devs don't like their mundane characters very much.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:50 pm

I don't think a lot of those complaints hold water. The "Oh no! They could hack my ware!" isn't much of a threat compared to "Oh no! They could shoot me in the fucking face!" And that is of course always an option. People spending actual in-combat actions to cause you to lose smartlink bonuses is a rather amazing waste of their time considering that you can probably kill a man fairly effectively with your backup laser sight, smartlink or no.

What you're seeing though is the tip of the iceberg of how the entire "carrot" model for wireless is horseshit. For starters, if you set the assumed level of character competence to whatever values your wireless carrots provide, then you aren't really providing bonuses at all. It's just a penalty by a different name - like playing the wrong race/class combination in 4e D&D. And the player base will immediately start seeing it that way. Then of course, we're still stuck with all kinds of questions like what the fuck happens if I turn the wireless on, but lower the signal rating until my devices can only talk to things within a meter of my body. Or what if my "wireless" is directional beams and not wifi at all. That kind of shit.

And of course, it's a pain in the ass, between all the devices with nominally contingent benefits and all the different signal ranges and shit, it's actually going to be something of a nightmare to actually run through device hacking. How many hackable units does a single SpecOps cybercommando have on them? This is going to be a nightmare.

-Username17

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:12 pm

I can totally see people ignoring or winging it, claiming it's something that works just fine...

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:29 pm

An addendum: Just as a reminder, the previews are from the actual book as it currently exists, so if all you have is the previews, you can still help me out here

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1235110
oh you have GOT to be kidding me . .
so it really DID go out to the printers with these errors in?

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:33 pm

Stahlseele wrote:
An addendum: Just as a reminder, the previews are from the actual book as it currently exists, so if all you have is the previews, you can still help me out here
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1235110
oh you have GOT to be kidding me . .
so it really DID go out to the printers with these errors in?

You're surprised?

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:33 pm

Well... at least they have a product to sell. I... really don't know what to say anymore. It's just too sad. Or stupid. Or both.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:43 pm

But really, they told us that the books were going to printers about 1-2 weeks before the preview came out. Unless they were stupidly preparing the previews separately from the book, we already knew that all of the errors were going to be in the printed book.

Best we can hope for is errata makes it into a second print run, so anyone who cares about that can wait and pick up a fixed book a few months later. But given SR's track record with eratta...

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:50 pm

Dorfs lose Thermo.
Trolls pay 50% more for Cyberware.
These are fucking huge mistakes!

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:19 pm

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1235203

You can actually take Exceptional Attribute for Magic and Resonance now. But not for INitiative and Essence, no.

wat.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:28 pm

Stahlseele wrote:http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1235203
You can actually take Exceptional Attribute for Magic and Resonance now. But not for INitiative and Essence, no.
wat.

What's the cost of Exceptional Attribute vs an Innitiation?

My guess is Exceptional Attribute will be a sucker's bet until very late game.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:33 pm

Exceptional attribute allows you to start with a higher attribute and is a fixed cost, whereas initiation gets more and more expensive at every level.

Seerow · Post by **Seerow** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:42 pm

Stahlseele wrote:Exceptional attribute allows you to start with a higher attribute and is a fixed cost, whereas initiation gets more and more expensive at every level.

The fixed cost is why I said it would be a sucker's bet until very late game. Once you had a few initiations under your belt, Exceptional Attribute may be better. But even then you're still giving up a metamagic, boosting all of your other metamagics....

I'm just really not seeing it as that big of a deal.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:47 pm

ok, you pay for exceptional attribute in char gen and start with magic 7 or just softmax it to 6 instead of 5.
then you play and get the needed karma for your first initiation.

or you don't get exceptional attribute in char gen and start with magic 6 or just softmax it to 5.
then you play and get the needed karma for your first initiation.
which is the exact same ammount. because if i remember correctly, the initiation cost is based on the initiation rank, not on the magic attribute.
so you have one point less magic and the same initiation.
raising the magic attribute from the 7 to 8 will be, of course, more expensive than from 6 to 7, but the initiation itself stays the same.

and technically, that it's more expensive to go from 7 to 8 than to go from 6 to 7 won't even matter, because you don't need to pay for the rise from 6 to 7 with karma anymore.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:58 am

Rawbeard wrote:I can totally see people ignoring or winging it, claiming it's something that works just fine...

Basically, yes. It's obviously ridiculous for the GM to even rattle off, let alone roll some fucking dice for every item and piece of ware on everyone in the room. Having the player play Battleship or Clue with devices ("Does he have a wirelessly enabled gas mask?") is equally untenable.

What is probably going to actually happen is that things will fall into a couple of equilibria in different games:

Fear of abstract wireless attack will lead players to turn off wireless options for most if not all of their stuff. In these games, the hacker character will be fairly useless for the most part because important things will be off limits for them. Further, to the extent the game is balanced at all, it is balanced by having the PCs get the wireless bonuses, all mundane characters will be found to be incredibly weak and the players in this equilibrium will call the game "Magic Run".
People will figure out signal distances, and then leave their wireless "on" without exposing themselves to danger that is farther away than arm's reach. Combat hacking will be a particularly shitty and ineffective melee attack and no one will fucking bother. Lots of fiddly arithmetic will be done to circumvent a system that is then circumvented and not otherwise used.
People will conclude that the entire hacking thing is too much trouble and just not do it. The entire section will be glossed over as any hacking is done off camera by various NPCs.
The GM will "streamline" the rules and the hacker player will make individual die rolls which will be treated like Apocalypse World rolls. The Hacker will roll his hacking at an enemy, get 4 hits, and then the GM will ad hoc something that seems like a 4 hits effect. Most of these people will believe they are following the rules, even though they really and obviously are not.
The GM will periodically use hacking in some streamlined NPC way to blow up PC equipment in some permanent fashion and the players will all get pissed off. Hacking of this sort will obviously never be worth it for the players (who wants to blow up loot instead of taking out the enemies who can be looted?), and the entire hacking minigame will be thought of as "the thing the GM uses to fuck over your character's equipment".

Really, I can't see any equilibrium in which the rules are actually followed and they aren't a massive net negative to the game. And I haven't even read the rules in question, it's simply an inevitable result of that design paradigm.

-Username17

Fucks · Post by **Fucks** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:18 am

Game design 101 by Bull (topic: a PC can only fire a once per round now in SR5. A mage can cast a spell once per round now, as long as it's an attack option. If he casts a spell that is no attack, he's able to cast more)

Maybe. But as I said, there are a million exceptions.

Does casting an Illusion Spell count? What if it's purely defensive (Covering a hole in a wall that you're hiding behind?) WHat if it's offensive (Making the target thing he's about to be attacked by a troll with an axe, or covering a hole in the floor he's about to step in?)

HE grenades are offensive, but smoke grenades are defensive. And what if the enemy just happens to be allergic to that particular chemical your smoke uses, and it could kill him?

Using ice sheet to knock down my enemies vs using Ice Sheet to provide a slick surface for me to easily slide down to escape combat.

We wanted there to be versatility. one of the points of removing the "double tap" for guns was to loosen up combat a little and make it less about "i fire, now you fire, now I fire" and make it more strategic. Because now you can fire, but you can also do something ELSE. Being creative, maneuvering, taking defensive actions. We want players to be able to do that. And a blanket "Only one spell" or classifying all grenades as "Offensive" stifles that ability greatly.

Say what you want, but for every thing I can think of as "purely defensive" I'm sure someone could find an offensive action to use it with. And vice-versa for everything offensive, there are only a couple actions I can think of that I can't imagine some kind of rare, one in a million defensive opportunity to use it for.

Sometimes, you have to rely on players good sense and the GMs ability to make rulings. That's just the way it goes.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:00 am

Sometimes you don't need to make a working ruleset before selling it. I'm not sure if it is good or bad that they seem to know their system does not work. It's very obvious they don't care.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:26 am

The WizWar action system is kind of beautiful in a way. There never was any in-world justification for why you could cast only one attack but as many neutrals as you wanted. And of course, the sheer lack of in-world justification makes it completely unjustifiable in a role-playing context. Taken out of the board game, it's a set of directives that cannot even be parsed.

Expect more Home Alone and Rube Goldberg shenanigans though. Because harming people indirectly though tricking them to walk on land mines is the new haste.

-Username17