Why did they scrap Orcus?

chaosfang · Post by **chaosfang** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:01 am

Mask_De_H wrote:Gather Power is one of those things you're stuck with, like Sneak Attack or the Cleric's Heal. And they didn't fix it for EE2 as far as I can tell. Don't know about EE3, but I do know they gave up on balancing the Monk and shunted it to their first splat.

Wasn't it the *druid* they gave up on?

FatR · Post by **FatR** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:40 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Yes, they are. There are some ancillary parts of the charm system I would examine and try to adapt like combos, but the basic setup and writeup of all of the charms suck donkey anus. Like, just crack open the Exalted 2E player's guide. As much as Exalted people like to snivel and crow that Exalted makes you sooooo awesome unlike other games' crummy VAH-tier spells, the basic Exalted charms are as lame and math-hammery as typical 4E powers.

I give you excessive reliance on boring numerical bonuses, but let's be honest, in Exalted you can actually do serious shit, like creating things from nothing, brainwashing whole nations, making whole nations survive impossible conditions, or cranking out artifacts as a starting character, even if it requires advancing deeper than one Charm into appropriate Charm trees. There is a problem though, that the game is structured in such a way, that unless you accept some stupid (and now overruled) rules interpretations nothing of that matters. Except making magical bling, because that allows your party to stab faces of actually important opponents better.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:The only consistent advantage Exalted charms have over 4E D&D charms is that the keyword system is actually pretty helpful. Of course there's also the problem that Exalted has tree prerequisites for charm. And Exalted charms have a lot shittier implementation aspects than that god-awful prerequisite bullshit.

Out of curiosity, can you elaborate?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:01 pm

sabs wrote:It does an extra 3damage on average omg spooge it's got to be a daily power. I hate the entire encounter/daily power setup. @wills, are actually kind of nice. But, the whole encounter/daily setup is complete crap.

An extra 32.5 damage is 55% more. If the damage values are at all balanced in the game, that's a significant fucking increase. The fact that it would be a tiny bullshit amount in D&D does not hold when an enemy has only 10 or 20 HP.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:06 pm

Don't you get the Escalation Die as a bonus to damage?

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:46 pm

chaosfang wrote:
Mask_De_H wrote:Gather Power is one of those things you're stuck with, like Sneak Attack or the Cleric's Heal. And they didn't fix it for EE2 as far as I can tell. Don't know about EE3, but I do know they gave up on balancing the Monk and shunted it to their first splat.
Wasn't it the *druid* they gave up on?

It's both. Look up the Kickstarter for 13 Ways.

And Catharz, that 2.5 damage bump is only really useful against L0 (20 HP) beasties. Monster HP scales on a weird exponential curve, too.

chaosfang · Post by **chaosfang** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:58 am

Noted, Mask_De_H.

John Magnum, you only get bonuses to hit with the Escalation Die by default. Anything beyond that is likely power/talent/spell-determined, as well as DM-determined.

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:20 pm

Thanks for the correction.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:49 pm

FatR wrote:Out of curiosity, can you elaborate?

Err, sorry, I didn't see your question earlier. Here are the things in particular that I hate about Exalted charms.

[*] Making a lot of charms key off of willpower. Willpower is not a reliable resource in Exalted, unlike motes. It makes judging the balance point of charms extremely fucking difficult.

[*] Exalted still has that crap where charms at CharGen are easier to acquire than charms earned with XP. Shadowrun has shown decisively why this is a bad idea.

[*] For the same opportunity cost, charms give blatantly different benefits even near the beginning of the tree. Going down the Solar Hero form is inferior to going down Melee yet it costs about the same. D&D has this problem, too, even among non-casters, but it's nowhere near as bad as in Exalted.

[*] Like I said before, despite people wanking about how awesome and empowering Exalted crap is, from an actual gameplay effect perspective most of the charm effects are kind of pants. Craftsmen Need no Tools is only slightly more narratively impressive than Fabricate despite having a larger opportunity cost. Nothing in the Lore tree is as awesome as a druid with Dispel Magic/Break Enchantment, Craft Wondrous Item, Reincarnate, and Awaken. So on and so forth.

[*] The game does not give a discount or different rate for non-combat charms that it does for combat charms. Even 4E D&D managed to get that one right.

The 4E D&D power system is pretty awful. But the Exalted system manages to be significantly worse. The comparison is seriously like comparing 3E Wealth by Level (which is Megaman Battle Network 4 bad) to 4E Treasure Parcels (which is Limbo of the Lost bad).

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:43 pm

chaosfang wrote: John Magnum, you only get bonuses to hit with the Escalation Die by default. Anything beyond that is likely power/talent/spell-determined, as well as DM-determined.

I'm not trying to troll here, but are you really saying, "If the DM wants your attacks to be doing more damage or he thinks the fight should have ended by now, then you can add the Escalation Die bonus to your damage rolls"? Because that is a genuinely insulting sentiment to express in official. It's approaching Mearls level of ineptitude.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:54 pm

Don't get me wrong, though; I'd still rather play Exalted (well, 1E Exalted) than 4E D&D because Exalted has a much better default campaign setting. But I simply cannot imagine a worse ability acquisition/resource management system than Exalted's. I'd rather play in a game that either didn't have one at all or had the most piddling one possible, like Mouseguard or Dragonstrike.

chaosfang · Post by **chaosfang** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:08 am

Blicero wrote:
chaosfang wrote: John Magnum, you only get bonuses to hit with the Escalation Die by default. Anything beyond that is likely power/talent/spell-determined, as well as DM-determined.
I'm not trying to troll here, but are you really saying, "If the DM wants your attacks to be doing more damage or he thinks the fight should have ended by now, then you can add the Escalation Die bonus to your damage rolls"? Because that is a genuinely insulting sentiment to express in official. It's approaching Mearls level of ineptitude.

Not really, it's more like "no matter what RPG you are playing in, if the DM is going to make a houserule that allows you to use a mechanic in a way it was not intended for, nothing can stop that DM from doing so short of player rebellion."

From all the information I have gathered, nothing enables or prevents the DM from allowing the use of Escalation Die in ways other than to-hit. Maybe if waderockett or so-- oh wait, right. Decent discussion got shot out of the moon that time. Nevermind.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:01 am

chaosfang wrote: From all the information I have gathered, nothing enables or prevents the DM from allowing

In what situation is a DM not allowed to do something?

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:32 pm

chaosfang wrote:From all the information I have gathered, nothing enables or prevents the DM from allowing the use of Escalation Die in ways other than to-hit.

Yeah, what does this even mean? "Nothing enables or prevents" the DM from doing something? Are you trying to say that there are no rules for using the Escalation Die for anything other than to-hit bonuses? Because if so you should say that.

It's like arguing that 3e is balanced because nothing "enables or prevents" the DM from giving the Fighter spells like a Wizard.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:23 pm

Before it went out of print, 3.5e had a dedicated para-military team in all fifty states plus Canada that would prevent you from houseruling the system too much.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:01 pm

Red_Rob wrote:
chaosfang wrote:From all the information I have gathered, nothing enables or prevents the DM from allowing the use of Escalation Die in ways other than to-hit.
Yeah, what does this even mean? "Nothing enables or prevents" the DM from doing something? Are you trying to say that there are no rules for using the Escalation Die for anything other than to-hit bonuses? Because if so you should say that.

This. Please elaborate. Presumably, the maths of the system are going to be based around the Escalation Die being added or not being added to any given roll a player might make. If individual DMs are expected, or even encouraged to change that state, then the number of floating variables the devs have to deal with will increase drastically.

So are you saying "The rules only support the ED adding to attack rolls. But some DMs will doubtlessly switch that up." Or "The rules only support the ED adding to attack rolls. But players can select abilities that expand what the ED bonus applies to." Or, "The rules only support the ED adding to attack rolls. But we have a section in the rules called 'Expanding the Use of the Escalation Die' that talks about what else the DM can have the ED bonus apply to."

Because these choices create noticeably distinct final rules configurations.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:40 am

Well, to go out on a not particularly shaky limb, the rules could say one, Rob's sidebar could say another, and Heinsoo's sidebar could suggest the third.

Wrathzog · Post by **Wrathzog** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:02 pm

Chamomile wrote:Before it went out of print, 3.5e had a dedicated para-military team in all fifty states plus Canada that would prevent you from houseruling the system too much.

I saw those guys in action once. They drove up in black jeeps with mounted .50 cal machine guns and launched tear gas through the windows of the house across the street. Then they just blasted people as they stumbled through the smoke. I remember Dave (the guy who lived there) taking a few steps out into the yard; blood, tears, and mucus all over his face before he was torn apart by automatic weapons fire. I heard from someone else that he was screaming, "all I did was give everyone weapon focus for free why are you doing this?" as it was happening.
It was pretty intense.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:45 pm

Wrathzog wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Before it went out of print, 3.5e had a dedicated para-military team in all fifty states plus Canada that would prevent you from houseruling the system too much.
I saw those guys in action once. They drove up in black jeeps with mounted .50 cal machine guns and launched tear gas through the windows of the house across the street. Then they just blasted people as they stumbled through the smoke. I remember Dave (the guy who lived there) taking a few steps out into the yard; blood, tears, and mucus all over his face before he was torn apart by automatic weapons fire. I heard from someone else that he was screaming, "all I did was give everyone weapon focus for free why are you doing this?" as it was happening.
It was pretty intense.

What's scary is, that's about how people react. You should see the bricks shat out over on the old D&D Wiki over various bits of Tome. Just the other day, there was a dude who went all neckbeard because the Tome Death Knight PrC isn't like "Lord Soth from Dragonlance" and said the author needed to do more research and read some novels and junk.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:53 pm

The only reason Frank and K were able to get away with the Tomes at all is because Frank is really good at patching up bullet wounds and K is basically James Bond.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:06 pm

Plus didn't they post the Tomes here?

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:36 pm

Plus Frank fled to Europe.

chaosfang · Post by **chaosfang** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:14 am

Blicero wrote:
Red_Rob wrote:
chaosfang wrote:From all the information I have gathered, nothing enables or prevents the DM from allowing the use of Escalation Die in ways other than to-hit.
Yeah, what does this even mean? "Nothing enables or prevents" the DM from doing something? Are you trying to say that there are no rules for using the Escalation Die for anything other than to-hit bonuses? Because if so you should say that.
This. Please elaborate. Presumably, the maths of the system are going to be based around the Escalation Die being added or not being added to any given roll a player might make. If individual DMs are expected, or even encouraged to change that state, then the number of floating variables the devs have to deal with will increase drastically.

So are you saying "The rules only support the ED adding to attack rolls. But some DMs will doubtlessly switch that up." Or "The rules only support the ED adding to attack rolls. But players can select abilities that expand what the ED bonus applies to." Or, "The rules only support the ED adding to attack rolls. But we have a section in the rules called 'Expanding the Use of the Escalation Die' that talks about what else the DM can have the ED bonus apply to."

Because these choices create noticeably distinct final rules configurations.

From what I learned so far, rules-wise it's more of #2: Generally, Escalation Die adds to attack rolls. But as you can see in this Fighter character sheet https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pDe ... 6nLic/edit you do get abilities that are based off the Escalation Die. I would not be surprised if there were abilities that allowed you to do damage equal to the current Escalation Die, or something to that effect, when particular conditions are met.

And then there's Rule 0, which applies to all TRPGs (last I checked).

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:10 pm

Rule 0 also applies to my 2 kids playing make believe in the backyard. Or my 7 year old magically adding hitpoints to imaginary monsters, when they'r about to get destroyed, because he doesn't want the game to end.

Rule 0 is all good, but why the FUCK would I pay money for Rule 0?
I can play a TTRPG using rule 0 for freeeeee. We call it Zen, MTP, Mother May I.

chaosfang · Post by **chaosfang** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:53 am

sabs wrote:Rule 0 also applies to my 2 kids playing make believe in the backyard. Or my 7 year old magically adding hitpoints to imaginary monsters, when they'r about to get destroyed, because he doesn't want the game to end.

Rule 0 is all good, but why the FUCK would I pay money for Rule 0?
I can play a TTRPG using rule 0 for freeeeee. We call it Zen, MTP, Mother May I.

Good question. That's why I find D&D Next very distasteful, because not only has Mike Mearls effectively said "we're sure you're going to start houseruling this system the moment you lay your hands on it", but even in the playtest material it is placed front and center, as if the WotC dev group is saying "we're bound to make lousy rules, go ahead and change what we're publishing". In fact, I believe it was mentioned recently by Mike that they believe the heart of D&D to be the tweaking of the rules to fit the group (which seems like an attempt to excuse them from lousy game development and an unwitting admission of D&D Next to be more of a moneygrab than anything).

On the other hand, even though it seems that 13th Age acknowledges the existence of Rule 0, it instead approaches the thing in a more positive manner; basically the developers tell the group "players and DMs should work together to create a fantastic gaming experience for everyone. Here are the rules our TRPG system offers, with alternate rules to fit the group. If the system as a whole doesn't work for you, feel free to take what you like and incorporate them as houserules for the system that you *do* like."

I sometimes compare 13th Age with Elder Scrolls: Skyrim (or better yet, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion), due to the flexibility that both systems offer with regards to both mechanics and reflavoring. But if I were to choose between 13th Age and Elder Scrolls, I'd choose 13th Age because unlike Skyrim, you are working with the DM and you get to REALLY shape the world and universe as both an individual and as a group, without having to houserule and with the DM encouraged to not only use "yes, and" -- which should always be the answer to "DM May I?" [with very rare exceptions, hopefully] -- but also GUMSHOE's "fail forward" philosophy;so unless either you or the DM are really being a dick, whatever your character is planning on doing will definitely happen, it's just a matter of if there are complications that would happen and how bad those complications would be.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:43 am

chaosfang wrote:On the other hand, even though it seems that 13th Age acknowledges the existence of Rule 0, it instead approaches the thing in a more positive manner; basically the developers tell the group "players and DMs should work together to create a fantastic gaming experience for everyone. Here are the rules our TRPG system offers, with alternate rules to fit the group. If the system as a whole doesn't work for you, feel free to take what you like and incorporate them as houserules for the system that you *do* like.

That's not Rule 0. That's "here are some of our houserules". That's literally the opposite of Rule 0, you're providing rules instead of telling them to up rules.

You cannot say that you're providing Rule 0 help, because you cannot provide help and then call it Rule 0. Those are contradictions.