Shitty character concepts need to die

[Kaelik]

1) The definition of magic is "of or relating to the supernatural"

2) Things that are supernatural are of or relating to themselves.

3) Therefore, all possible supernatural things fall within the definition of magic, and are therefore fucking magic.

Is this your idea of logic? Because it's horribly flawed.

"A relates to B, and B relates to B, therefor all B is A," is not logic. It is pretty much the direct opposite of logic.

Learn to read idiot. The first premise is not A relates to B. The first premise is "The definition of A is 'anything that relates to B.'"

So once again:

1) The definition of magic is "anything at all of any kind that ever, even a little bit, relates to the supernatural."

2) Supernatural things relate to themselves.

3) Therefore Supernatural things are magic.

All magic things are supernatural, but not all magical things are supernatural. The actual definition of supernatural has nothing to do with magic because magic is a single facet of the supernatural.

How are you still arguing this?

Because you are literally completely assbackwards.

The definition of magic is "all the supernatural things. Also all the things that relate to the supernatural but are not themselves supernatural."

So all things that are supernatural are magic, but not all things that are magic are supernatural. You literally reversed which set includes the other set.

It doesn't matter that the definition of supernatural does not include the word magic, because the definition of magic tells us that all things that are supernatural are magic.

[Verisimilitudinous]

"Conan rips through the very fabric of reality, his overwhelming determination forcing him through the planes and towards his foe."

You are then no longer Conan your fucking Baron Munchausen so go eat a dick we've already been over this.

So, please, tell me: Why is a Wizard doing this through finger-wiggling and funny words so acceptable and Conan doing it through being Conan terrible and dumb and pfff cartoons for babies?


Also I love the idea that MTP is just bad design and GOOD design just has rules for everything that ever might come up. Because that is the silliest thing I have ever heard about game design.

MTP is unavoidable in every RPG ever because the alternative is trying to make rules for reality. Which is not only impossible but a bad goal to boot. The DM's entire point is to regulate MTP; if you want rules for every interaction possible you want a video game, not a TTRPG.

[Mistborn]

Sempai can you please stop indulgeing this blithering moron with your scorn if because if we have another page of this thread full of this bullshit I'm going to start weeping and maybe commit sudoku

[Dr_Noface]

People will not ever accept Conan doing that. He's just a rogue/fighter/barbarian multiclass. He didn't even take any levels in Planar Champion.

[Verisimilitudinous]

Because you are literally completely assbackwards.

The definition of magic is "all the supernatural things. Also all the things that relate to the supernatural but are not themselves supernatural."

So, where is this definition of magic that is, "Everything supernatural and everything that could be seen as supernatural," because I really can't find it anywhere. All I can see is your definition that magic relates to or invokes the supernatural (which doesn't imply that they are one and the same any more than you being related to your mother makes you the same) or the other definition here:

Definition of MAGIC
1
a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations
2
a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source
b : something that seems to cast a spell : enchantment
3
: the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand

So where is this definition that says that magic and supernatural are one and the same? I mean, if you're not pulling that straight out of your ass you should have it, right?

[Verisimilitudinous]

People will not ever accept Conan doing that. He's just a rogue/fighter/barbarian multiclass. He didn't even take any levels in Planar Champion.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summation of the problem at hand.

"Well you see the way it's been done before means this can't happen, therefor it should never happen."

I mean if we're going to insist that things shouldn't be changed to try and improve the game shouldn't we all be playing OD&D still?

[Verisimilitudinous]

Sempai can you please stop indulgeing this blithering moron with your scorn if because if we have another page of this thread full of this bullshit I'm going to start weeping and maybe commit sudoku

I know personal attacks are all the rage here because rational discourse is something most people here have only ever heard of third-hand but come on. A dissenting opinion is something to be valued unless all you ever want is to be reassured that you're doing it right it's okay honey shhh don't cry mommy is here.

[Verisimilitudinous]

People will not ever accept Conan doing that. He's just a rogue/fighter/barbarian multiclass. He didn't even take any levels in Planar Champion.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summation of the problem at hand.

"Well you see the way it's been done before means this can't happen, therefor it should never happen."

I mean if we're going to insist that things shouldn't be changed to try and improve the game shouldn't we all be playing OD&D still?

Oh and this is directly related to, "Well we can just give them magic! That solves everything without ever having to think about D&D except as 3E!"

[Kaelik]

Because you are literally completely assbackwards.

The definition of magic is "all the supernatural things. Also all the things that relate to the supernatural but are not themselves supernatural."

So, where is this definition of magic that is, "Everything supernatural and everything that could be seen as supernatural," because I really can't find it anywhere. All I can see is your definition that magic relates to or invokes the supernatural (which doesn't imply that they are one and the same any more than you being related to your mother makes you the same) or the other definition here:

Oh that is easy. You are illiterate, so of course you missed it.

Once again, the definition is not "magic relates to the supernatural" the definition is:

"Magic
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural."

Now that means that anything that fits 1) is magic.

The definition, like all definitions, creates a set of things which are the defined word. The set is "anything relating to the supernatural."

Since anything that is supernatural is relating to the supernatural, therefore anything supernatural is magic.

[Mistborn]

So, please, tell me: Why is a Wizard doing this through finger-wiggling and funny words so acceptable and Conan doing it through being Conan terrible and dumb and pfff cartoons for babies?


Also I love the idea that MTP is just bad design and GOOD design just has rules for everything that ever might come up. Because that is the silliest thing I have ever heard about game design.

MTP is unavoidable in every RPG ever because the alternative is trying to make rules for reality. Which is not only impossible but a bad goal to boot. The DM's entire point is to regulate MTP; if you want rules for every interaction possible you want a video game, not a TTRPG.

Oh god please can you stop airing out you hideous ignorance. Seriouly we've had five million of these threads consider reading up on them before you open you stupidity hole only to fill it full of the barrel of cocks you are currently sucking.

So let's go over this for the five milionth time the wizard has as part of his concept the ability to use magic. Magic is a form of Phlebotinum which is this wonderful thing that let's you ignore pesky things like physics. Conans concept is he is a strong guy with a sword notice how those things do not allow you to break the fucking laws of nature. This is why he is low level he still has to take it up the ass from physics. In order to acend and actually high level abilites he needs some fucking Phlebotinum. It need not be the Vanilla flavored form of Phlebotinum that the wizard has but he dose need some flavor of Phlebotinum to not be shit.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Hey Verisimilitudinous, I have a few questions for you. Are you familiar with After Sundown? In that, there are 3 flavors of Sorcery, and there are also superpowers that break mortal limits without being Sorcery.

If you are a Named Character ("Luminary"), you have a limited ability to acquire supernatural powers without turning into a monster. Getting the Power Points to use the really nice powers is tricky, but there is nothing keeping you from from picking up some powers and being a really lame version of a Transhuman or a Witch. Nevertheless, After Sundown is a game about playing horror movie monsters, and there is almost nothing written down to support the idea of playing an Extra who is competitive at higher levels of play.

As MC for a game, how would you react to a player who wanted to play a human Luminary who had a bunch of powers, but was not actually a monster?

[Verisimilitudinous]

Because you are literally completely assbackwards.

The definition of magic is "all the supernatural things. Also all the things that relate to the supernatural but are not themselves supernatural."

So, where is this definition of magic that is, "Everything supernatural and everything that could be seen as supernatural," because I really can't find it anywhere. All I can see is your definition that magic relates to or invokes the supernatural (which doesn't imply that they are one and the same any more than you being related to your mother makes you the same) or the other definition here:

Oh that is easy. You are illiterate, so of course you missed it.

Once again, the definition is not "magic relates to the supernatural" the definition is:

"Magic
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or invoking the supernatural."

Now that means that anything that fits 1) is magic.

The definition, like all definitions, creates a set of things which are the defined word. The set is "anything relating to the supernatural."

Since anything that is supernatural is relating to the supernatural, therefore anything supernatural is magic.

How can you keep insisting that B is A because A relates to B?

The definition says that anything magic is supernatural, not that anything supernatural is magic. The set defines magic as being supernatural, it does not define supernatural as being magic.

To give you another example, let's look at the word pecuniary!

pe·cu·ni·ar·y
[pi-kyoo-nee-er-ee] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.

My god! Of or pertaining to money! Man that must mean that pecuniary means all money, because it's of or pertaining to money!

(oh by the way relate is a synonym for pertain)

[Verisimilitudinous]

Alternatively it could just mean that pecuniary is a specific word for talking about certain monetary interactions rather than being a synonym for money itself

[Verisimilitudinous]

Woah woah wait that would mean that magic is a word for talking about specific supernatural interactions instead of a synonym for supernatural!

[Mistborn]

How can you keep insisting that B is A because A relates to B?

The definition says that anything magic is supernatural, not that anything supernatural is magic. The set defines magic as being supernatural, it does not define supernatural as being magic.

To give you another example, let's look at the word pecuniary!

pe·cu·ni·ar·y
[pi-kyoo-nee-er-ee] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.

My god! Of or pertaining to money! Man that must mean that pecuniary means all money, because it's of or pertaining to money!

(oh by the way relate is a synonym for pertain)

and there he geos he HASS missed the point

the crowd goes wild with dismay and comits sudoku

[Verisimilitudinous]

So what was the point? As far as I can tell it was Kaelik insisting that something was true in the face of all evidence. Which is par for the course here but still that guy is dedicated to being wrong while pretending the opposite.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Reposting this, with the addition that I'm curious about whether you'd accept a fantasy RPG that gave you a choice between 3 flavors of Sorceror, 3 flavors of Skinshifter warrior, and 3 flavors of sneaky Transcendent. They'd all have supernatural abilities, but the sorcerors would be easier to counter the magic of and would be capable of doing more stuff with prep time.

Hey Verisimilitudinous, I have a few questions for you. Are you familiar with After Sundown? In that, there are 3 flavors of Sorcery, and there are also superpowers that break mortal limits without being Sorcery.

If you are a Named Character ("Luminary"), you have a limited ability to acquire supernatural powers without turning into a monster. Getting the Power Points to use the really nice powers is tricky, but there is nothing keeping you from from picking up some powers and being a really lame version of a Transhuman or a Witch. Nevertheless, After Sundown is a game about playing horror movie monsters, and there is almost nothing written down to support the idea of playing an Extra who is competitive at higher levels of play.

As MC for a game, how would you react to a player who wanted to play a human Luminary who had a bunch of powers, but was not actually a monster?

[Mistborn]

So what was the point? As far as I can tell it was Kaelik insisting that something was true in the face of all evidence. Which is par for the course here but still that guy is dedicated to being wrong while pretending the opposite.

The point is to not to be such hideous conksuck assholes and fill so much of this thread with your textual diarrhea. So close your ignorance hole for a second a listen while I reiterate my point for the millionth time.

So let's go over this for the five milionth time the wizard has as part of his concept the ability to use magic. Magic is a form of Phlebotinum which is this wonderful thing that let's you ignore pesky things like physics. Conans concept is he is a strong guy with a sword notice how those things do not allow you to break the fucking laws of nature. This is why he is low level, he still has to take it up the ass from physics. In order to acend and actually high level abilites he needs some fucking Phlebotinum. It need not be the Vanilla flavored form of Phlebotinum that the wizard has but he dose need some flavor of Phlebotinum to not be shit.

[Verisimilitudinous]

But when you insist that all Phlebotinum is magic you're just limiting yourself; yeah, people need something to break out of mundane archetypes but that something doesn't have to be magic.

Hell, you yourself admit that magic is a form of Phlebotinum. Kaelik's stating that magic is the only form of Phlebotinum.

[Verisimilitudinous]

Also since it never really got addressed: Is psionics magic? Because, according to D&D, it's not. But if everything supernatural is magic then it has to be. What's going on here!

[Grek]

It's magic in the sense that Frank and Kaelik are using the word, where it's a supernatural thing, is a source of Phlebotinum and is functionally identical to "magic" magic. But it isn't magic in the sense that it's actually called "magic" on your character sheet/in the rulebook or in the sense of it being something that gets stopped by an "anti-magic" field.

[Mistborn]

But when you insist that all Phlebotinum is magic you're just limiting yourself; yeah, people need something to break out of mundane archetypes but that something doesn't have to be magic.

No. Fuck. Stop sucking that barrel of cocks so loudly. Stop spewing this pendantic bullshit from you face sphinter for. One. Fucking. Second.

I at no point stated all Phlebotinum was magic. I stated that magic was a subset of Phlebotinum and to have meaningful abilites at high level you need to get on the Phlebotinum wagon.

Now this whole line of argument is a buch of horrid rhetorical genital flailing so I will now cease indulging it.

[Kaelik]

or in the sense of it being something that gets stopped by an "anti-magic" field.

Actually, by 3e rules, Psionics is stopped by AMFs.

How can you keep insisting that B is A because A relates to B?

How can you keep failing to read the following sentence.

The sentence form of a definition of A is not "A relates to B." The sentence form of the definition of A is "Anything that relates to B is A."

"Anything that relates to the supernatural is magic."

The definition says that anything magic is supernatural, not that anything supernatural is magic.

No, that is literally the exact opposite of what the definition says. The definition says that anything that relates to the supernatural is magic.

pe·cu·ni·ar·y
[pi-kyoo-nee-er-ee] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.

My god! Of or pertaining to money! Man that must mean that pecuniary means all money, because it's of or pertaining to money!

In addition to computers, you also don't know anything about fucking money.

Yes, all money is pecuniary. That is the accurate understanding of that word. Physical money is a pecuniary object.

There can be pecuniary things that are not money, such as a pecuniary offense (an offense which requires you to pay money, and is therefore related to money without being money itself) but there cannot be a money thing that is not pecuniary.

[Pecuniary[money]]

Pecuniary is the larger set and money is the smaller set.

Just like magic is the larger set, and supernatural is the smaller set.

[K]

Also I love the idea that MTP is just bad design and GOOD design just has rules for everything that ever might come up. Because that is the silliest thing I have ever heard about game design.

MTP is unavoidable in every RPG ever because the alternative is trying to make rules for reality. Which is not only impossible but a bad goal to boot. The DM's entire point is to regulate MTP; if you want rules for every interaction possible you want a video game, not a TTRPG.

You don't need rules for reality.... that's batshit crazy talk.

You need rules for the scope of your game, and no rules for everything else. You don't make rules for colonizing alien worlds in your 1970's spy game and you don't make rules for crafting pots in your fantasy adventure game.

You only make rules for the things within the scope of your game. Your fantasy adventure game needs rules for swordfighting because that's the thing that people signed up for when they agreed to play a fantasy adventure game. Even if one PC really wants to start a pottery shop and sell his pots to nobles between adventures, the designer does not write big complicated rules for running a business or attracting clients because this is a fantasy adventure RPG and those things are not in the scope.

The big strawman argument for people who want good rules is always, "well, why don't you play a video game!" as if the extremely limited ruleset of a video game is the end result of having rules and a game. This ignores the fact that lots of games use abstractions instead of simply poorly representing aspects of reality with limited rules, and they are much more fun for it. For example, not being able to climb small walls is not the inevitable result of having rules, and MTP is not the only solution. You can just redesign rules when you find a flaw such as fixing your issue with small walls by abstracting movement such that small walls aren't even a consideration.

It also ignores the fact that lots of people RP in video games. RP is clearly independent of MTP.

What if I used the opposite strawman for the MTPers, the old, "If you don't like rules, then you shouldn't RPG. Just write a novel. Then you can be as creative you want and nothing can contain your imagination"?

[Verisimilitudinous]

But when you insist that all Phlebotinum is magic you're just limiting yourself; yeah, people need something to break out of mundane archetypes but that something doesn't have to be magic.

No. Fuck. Stop sucking that barrel of cocks so loudly. Stop spewing this pendantic bullshit from you face sphinter for. One. Fucking. Second.

I at no point stated all Phlebotinum was magic. I stated that magic was a subset of Phlebotinum and to have meaningful abilites at high level you need to get on the Phlebotinum wagon.

Now this whole line of argument is a buch of horrid rhetorical genital flailing so I will now cease indulging it.

Hey, I never said that's what you did. In fact, I specifically noted that you never said any such thing. Kaelik, on the other hand, really, really wants magic to be the one and only Phlebotinum. And that boggles me.

Actually, by 3e rules, Psionics is stopped by AMFs.

So you only accept the single ruleset that supports your argument? What about 2E AD&D psionics? Hell, it's even in the Time of Troubles fluff that psionics were utterly immune to all the magical instability.

How can you keep failing to read the following sentence.

The sentence form of a definition of A is not "A relates to B." The sentence form of the definition of A is "Anything that relates to B is A."

"Anything that relates to the supernatural is magic."

But that's not what the definition of magic. The definition of magic only says that magic itself must be supernatural. It doesn't say that supernatural must be magic. And wouldn't it follow that, if supernatural must be magic, that the actual definition of supernatural would include magic... somewhere? Anywhere? But it doesn't, so I'm confused. How is the supernatural magic if it doesn't reference magic?

pe·cu·ni·ar·y
[pi-kyoo-nee-er-ee] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of or pertaining to money: pecuniary difficulties.

My god! Of or pertaining to money! Man that must mean that pecuniary means all money, because it's of or pertaining to money!

In addition to computers, you also don't know anything about fucking money.

Yes, all money is pecuniary. That is the accurate understanding of that word. Physical money is a pecuniary object.

There can be pecuniary things that are not money, such as a pecuniary offense (an offense which requires you to pay money, and is therefore related to money without being money itself) but there cannot be a money thing that is not pecuniary.

[Pecuniary[money]]

Pecuniary is the larger set and money is the smaller set.

Just like magic is the larger set, and supernatural is the smaller set.

There can be monetary things that aren't pecuniary too? And supernatural things that aren't magic? Do you even know how language works?