League Of Losers

[ubernoob]

Unless you're playing one of the "nontraditional" supports that benefits from relic shield and didn't get nerfed into the ground. Annie and leona are in a pretty strong place right now. Support only sucks if you played one of the support champions that got specifically nerfed. Your gold overall went up, and you're less of a ward bitch than last season.

I'm not disputing that for many supports it is better than season 3. But better than season 3 does not mean not shit on and explicitly told you are not worth playing in the game.

Supports are still explicitly that class that isn't even supposed to have as much gold, and they are still the class that is supposed to build sightstone every time. They are still the shit classes, even if they are less the shit classes.

Not that that stops me from Annie/Leona/Zyra fucking people.

You're right. Supports... support. You don't get the gold and kills funneled to you. You are a glorified babysitter. And that's not fun a good portion of the time. The other portion of the time, I am too drunk to CS and the worst kind of person to be in your queue. I'm sorry. Drinking just makes playing support much more tolerable.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Just hit diamond 4, still no women or money. S4 analysis feat. relic changes:

Supporting is super fun right now. Support already dictated who won bot lane 90% of the time, but now support does that and gets some gold to buy an item or two for late game to be a slightly gimpy version of a solo laner. The only problem with support at this point is that your first 2k gold is going to be the same 2 items (depending on which type of support you are) every single game, so if you fall behind enough to be unable to trade in lane you are irrelevant (but being the losing support is more tolerable now that clearing vision is fucking hard).

Jungle: You get more gold, but you're still the team's bitch and people can (and should) take your jungle often. You're also in the "fall behind, get fucked" category because of new items. If you don't get your jungle income item first or soon after your opponent and aren't a heavy ganker like Xin you get incredibly weak. Carry junglers also seem weak right now (can't survive early fights, get bullied out of own jungle and lanes get fucked), but tanky DPS is back in vogue. I blame Shyvana for that.

Gameplay: The split push meta seems to have gotten stronger since vision is harder to maintain, this makes waveclear more valuable (clear and group to fight is the best counter to split push aside from "split push harder" or "have Shen"). Rengar is crazy since there's no more oracle and pinks are less useful, but if you beat him in lane he becomes useless (classic assassin). Fights are more frequent because teams bumble into each other more often mid-late due to fewer wards. Getting Baron mid-late is even more GG due to it giving you dragon for free, so your team gets an extra 1.Xk gold on top of Baron if dragon is up. I don't really mind, because once somebody gets a baron it's a slog if the other team has decent waveclear.

Melee supports are better than others due to effectiveness of Relic shield, but Leona is being favored over Taric right now because she can afford to be a tanky initiator who CCs fools. Taric is no longer called OP because people stopped being stupid, but he is still secretly OP and I will continue to spam him. It helps that Taric counters Leona and Blitz in lane.

Lucian has been getting spammed, might be because of split push meta because he clears waves really fast and duels fighters well (as well as his good trading early with an aggressive support).


Excellent changes overall, only role I like less is jungle now. Bot lane got way more fun.

Edit: But really, Taric is super strong right now. I'm now rocking over 75% win rate with more than 30 games on him. That is either really good luck or Taric being super useful.

[...You Lost Me]

I got 85/116.

[Surgo]

Junglers seem weaker, not stronger. The supposedly extra new gold is drained into the fact that the jungle items became a lot less cost-efficient (and some of them like Wriggles are utter shit).

[Korgan0]

Supports supporting is pretty much inevitable, given the constraints of the MOBA genre. Unless riot decides to support trilanes (which they've explicitly said they won't) or buffs jungle enough to allow a double jungle strat, there'll be a lane partner who won't take CS, which means that you should have a champ with high base whatevers that doesn't scale that well, and as such should spend their money on wards, since wards don't really care about your stats.

[Kaelik]

Supports supporting is pretty much inevitable, given the constraints of the MOBA genre. Unless riot decides to support trilanes (which they've explicitly said they won't) or buffs jungle enough to allow a double jungle strat, there'll be a lane partner who won't take CS, which means that you should have a champ with high base whatevers that doesn't scale that well, and as such should spend their money on wards, since wards don't really care about your stats.

1) You don't have to 5v5. It could absolutely be a 4v4 game.
2) The Jungle could be big enough for two.
3) You could have an item like the fucking mastery that supports have, or even the mastery itself, instead of giving 1 gold everytime my adc cses for like 300 in a long game, it could give you 10 gold, or half the gold of the cs. Nothing stops that. And supports wouldn't have to be bitches.

It isn't the constraints of the moba genre that forces bitch supports, it is Riots deliberate decision.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Why do people not like supporting? Support dictates the early/mid game for the duo, then acts as your team's main vision provider and as a force multiplier. Supports can win/lose games just as surely as other roles can, they just do it in a different way and with (usually) fewer items.

The issue with making supports rich is you'll get two duo lanes that also farm the jungle and a mid laner (who farms wraiths) if duoing is worth a lot of gold. Letting gold go to waste is bad, and it's already easy for lanes to farm the camp nearest them without losing out on more than a minion or two, if they even miss out on anything. Junglers are in a weird place where you have one because the gold/xp in the jungle is worse than a solo lane, but better than being the other guy in a duo lane.

[Kaelik]

Why do people not like supporting? Support dictates the early/mid game for the duo,

Support does not dictate the early/mid game. If you adc is fucking terrible, you literally don't fucking matter. If they spend the entire time attacking the fucking taric instead of the adc on all ins, or they go in for trades where they get off one auto attack and get hit by two abilities and an auto, or they have 60cs at the fucking 20 minute mark with 1 death then you don't matter.

People don't like to support because there are a lot of bad players, and if your adc is bad, as support you have no way to carry your lane, because you don't do the damage.

then acts as your team's main vision provider and as a force multiplier.

You can act as a force multiplier with items too. And fuck, in season 4, you can't even fucking provide vision, because you get three fucking wards and a visible piece of shit.

The issue with making supports rich is you'll get two duo lanes that also farm the jungle and a mid laner (who farms wraiths) if duoing is worth a lot of gold.

Do you really think that the jungle grants less gold then paying for an item that gives you half the gold from cs that someone near you kills? Supports don't have to be rich to not be bitches, they just have to not be treated like complete shit. There is a mastery point which gives between 200-300 gold across an entire game. 200 fucking gold. Why does that even exist? I mean, I take it, because that way I know when the adc misses cs, so I can make fun of him, but fuck, 200 gold across an entire game. What would be so terrible about the support having the same gold as the jungler if he contributes a bunch of masteries and runes and a large item to it?

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Support does not dictate the early/mid game. If you adc is fucking terrible, you literally don't fucking matter. If they spend the entire time attacking the fucking taric instead of the adc on all ins, or they go in for trades where they get off one auto attack and get hit by two abilities and an auto, or they have 60cs at the fucking 20 minute mark with 1 death then you don't matter.

People don't like to support because there are a lot of bad players, and if your adc is bad, as support you have no way to carry your lane, because you don't do the damage.

Support is the engage, pressure, and (majority of) CC in bot lane. ADC is poke and consistent damage. In the same way that a shitty ADC means the support is going to fail miserably in lane, a shitty support means the ADC will fail miserably for 40 minutes. A support with a bad ADC will still do things in the game, an ADC with a bad support will be dove and shit upon constantly until the lane phase ends and play catch up until late game while hoping the game doesn't end before they can do damage.

You can act as a force multiplier with items too. And fuck, in season 4, you can't even fucking provide vision, because you get three fucking wards and a visible piece of shit.

You act as a force multiplier no matter what, ain't no thang. You're still the only guy with a sightstone usually, so you're most of your team's vision.

Do you really think that the jungle grants less gold then paying for an item that gives you half the gold from cs that someone near you kills? Supports don't have to be rich to not be bitches, they just have to not be treated like complete shit. There is a mastery point which gives between 200-300 gold across an entire game. 200 fucking gold. Why does that even exist? I mean, I take it, because that way I know when the adc misses cs, so I can make fun of him, but fuck, 200 gold across an entire game. What would be so terrible about the support having the same gold as the jungler if he contributes a bunch of masteries and runes and a large item to it?

You don't understand how easy it is to farm golems for bot/top, new camp for bot/top, and wraiths for mid. Explaining why junglers exist would take a while. There was a time junglers weren't required, that's worth remembering. The jungle is very weird because other people can take it and still lane fine.

[Kaelik]

You don't understand how easy it is to farm golems for bot/top, new camp for bot/top, and wraiths for mid. Explaining why junglers exist would take a while. There was a time junglers weren't required, that's worth remembering. The jungle is very weird because other people can take it and still lane fine.

I understand just fine how easy it is to take jungle farm. And while you are at it, the White Wraith camp is just Golems for the other side now. What you fail to understand is that these things are not inherent to the moba fucking genre. These are design decisions that could be changed. It is really fucking possible to make mids not steal wraiths, and in fact, part of that is already being done with the XP changes, however minor. If the mid isn't going to level an faster getting wraiths, then they aren't going to do it. Likewise, it is perfectly plausible to have the spawn timers on camps go down enough that you need someone in the jungle all the time to get that farm, but riot doesn't like farm junglers (even though now, Shyvana is the best jungler, but they will probably nerf that). Heck, you can even just thicken and extend the walls slightly, and suddenly tons of mids are just not going to farm wraiths until they have the enemies mid turret down and the wave pushed.

You don't get to claim that the support being a bitch character is inherent to the fucking genre. You could play Summoner's Rift 3v3 as the standard and there couldn't even be a support. It is not inherent to the fucking genre. Design decisions can be made, like making the investment into getting the gold large and making it impossible for the lanes to efficiently farm the jungle, that would still keep a jungler and a support who does have gold.

And frankly, yes, if you do it a certain way you might end up with some weird comps involving two roaming support/junglers, and that would also not be the end of the world. So fucking what. The step you are missing is explaining why any of this would be a bad thing.

And as for having a sightstone, fuck you. Of course you are most of your teams vision, but so fucking what, I didn't say you weren't. I said that the vision is not enough to make a fucking difference.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

I understand just fine how easy it is to take jungle farm. And while you are at it, the White Wraith camp is just Golems for the other side now. What you fail to understand is that these things are not inherent to the moba fucking genre. These are design decisions that could be changed. It is really fucking possible to make mids not steal wraiths, and in fact, part of that is already being done with the XP changes, however minor. If the mid isn't going to level an faster getting wraiths, then they aren't going to do it. Likewise, it is perfectly plausible to have the spawn timers on camps go down enough that you need someone in the jungle all the time to get that farm, but riot doesn't like farm junglers (even though now, Shyvana is the best jungler, but they will probably nerf that). Heck, you can even just thicken and extend the walls slightly, and suddenly tons of mids are just not going to farm wraiths until they have the enemies mid turret down and the wave pushed.

You don't get to claim that the support being a bitch character is inherent to the fucking genre. You could play Summoner's Rift 3v3 as the standard and there couldn't even be a support. It is not inherent to the fucking genre. Design decisions can be made, like making the investment into getting the gold large and making it impossible for the lanes to efficiently farm the jungle, that would still keep a jungler and a support who does have gold.

And frankly, yes, if you do it a certain way you might end up with some weird comps involving two roaming support/junglers, and that would also not be the end of the world. So fucking what. The step you are missing is explaining why any of this would be a bad thing.

And as for having a sightstone, fuck you. Of course you are most of your teams vision, but so fucking what, I didn't say you weren't. I said that the vision is not enough to make a fucking difference.

Changing anything major like number of players on the map is right out. If you hate supports so much play Dominion, ARAM, or Twisted Treeline. Changing the number of players on Summoners Rift would require rebalancing every champion in the game. Minor changes like thicker walls wouldn't stop jungle farming, just screw with jungle escapes and make invading riskier. You either make it harder to reach lanes from camps (crushing ganking) or make camps so hard you NEED a jungle item to fight them until later (current approach pretty much).


Also, roaming support + jungle was a thing at one time. Richer supports makes that less likely because then you're wasting gold by having a roamer.

Really tiny balance changes swing higher ends of the game into crazy town because they can be abused. S2 jungle let the madness come about with weird early game assassin junglers when it was super easy to clear.

I can't think of any big map changes that have happened, even the bush change is weird right now (but good because it takes away a HUGE burden of knowledge).

Basically, shit has to move slow or people will cut and run because gamers are pissy like that.

[Kaelik]

Changing anything major like number of players on the map is right out. If you hate supports so much play Dominion, ARAM, or Twisted Treeline. Changing the number of players on Summoners Rift would require rebalancing every champion in the game. Minor changes like thicker walls wouldn't stop jungle farming, just screw with jungle escapes and make invading riskier. You either make it harder to reach lanes from camps (crushing ganking) or make camps so hard you NEED a jungle item to fight them until later (current approach pretty much).


Also, roaming support + jungle was a thing at one time. Richer supports makes that less likely because then you're wasting gold by having a roamer.

Really tiny balance changes swing higher ends of the game into crazy town because they can be abused. S2 jungle let the madness come about with weird early game assassin junglers when it was super easy to clear.

I can't think of any big map changes that have happened, even the bush change is weird right now (but good because it takes away a HUGE burden of knowledge).

Basically, shit has to move slow or people will cut and run because gamers are pissy like that.

Wholly fucking shit learn to read. I am not saying that it would be totally easy to turn specifically LoL into a game without bitch supports.

I am saying that at literally every step of the design process Riot takes the intentional act of making design decisions with the specific intent of forcing 1/5th of their player base to be the bitch support.

Telling me that I don't understand how the jungle shape and the gold and the number of the players on the map is interconnected is you just completely failing to understand what I am saying and is also completely wrong. I am specifically saying that the fucking shit is interconnected, and that their exist all sorts of ways that they could solve the bitch support problem but would be difficult, but that every time a small change accidentally removes bitch supports a little bit they hamfistedly shove it right back in because they want bitch supports more than anything.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Wholly fucking shit learn to read. I am not saying that it would be totally easy to turn specifically LoL into a game without bitch supports.

Then make better suggestions? Thickening jungle walls wouldn't change shit for people farming their own jungle.

I am saying that at literally every step of the design process Riot takes the intentional act of making design decisions with the specific intent of forcing 1/5th of their player base to be the bitch support.

They just added more ways for supports to get gold (then nerfed one because it was twice as effective as the others). They're taking steps to fix it, and part of the problem will always be Sightstone and wards. A support will never have a full 6 item build without a sightstone, and SOMEBODY on the team will always need to carry wards. Support is that person.

Telling me that I don't understand how the jungle shape and the gold and the number of the players on the map is interconnected is you just completely failing to understand what I am saying and is also completely wrong. I am specifically saying that the fucking shit is interconnected, and that their exist all sorts of ways that they could solve the bitch support problem but would be difficult, but that every time a small change accidentally removes bitch supports a little bit they hamfistedly shove it right back in because they want bitch supports more than anything.

Of course there are obvious solutions. Make a new lane, remove a player, automatically split gold based on distance, better gold gain masteries, etc. The issue is each one creates new, worse problems. I'm not so sure Riot loves bitch supports so much as they love the idea of the jungle being a required role (stay with me for this one).

Jungle is the least necessary role in the game because it does not contribute anything to lanes outside of ganks (and it takes buffs away from lanes, which weakens them). The reason jungle exists is duo laning gold/xp is bad enough that jungle gold + xp is seen as better than the map pressure and gold/xp denial created by having a second duo lane. If duo laning is made good people will gladly trade the gold and xp gained by having a dedicated jungler for the map pressure of a second duo. Even right now, with duo lanes being poor as shit, in competitive play the jungler often goes to their solo lane after their initial clear to stop their team from losing a turret.

If supports got half a lane's worth of farm in gold (without their ADC sacrificing anything to get it) you can bet your ass teamcomps without junglers would start to do really, really well. Double relic bruiser lane vs having a jungler is an actual thing worth considering right now even though only 2/6ths of the double relic lane's gold is shared. What's the tipping point for the jungle being worthless?


Duo laning not generating enough gold for 2 fully build champions is the price of having a jungler. There's probably a way to fix that (and making the jungle optional again would be interesting anyways), but it's going to take a lot of fucking work. Double relic shield almost broke the game's roles by sharing 2/6ths of lane gold.


Riot is trying to buff supports while keeping junglers alive. It's a balancing act because the jungle is unnecessary because it doesn't directly kill turrets, and most buffs to support are about making duo lanes stronger.

[Kaelik]

Then make better suggestions? Thickening jungle walls wouldn't change shit for people farming their own jungle.

Are you an idiot? Making it harder to farm your jungle from lane would in fact change shit. It would not be sufficient all on it's own, but it changes things to make farming less ideal, the thing where they give shit XP also does the same thing. Combined little niggling things will combine to make it not the most efficient thing. Hell, half of season three was dominated by assassin lane clear mids who pushed the lane to go gank side lanes, not to farm fucking wraiths anyway.

[Korgan0]

Yeah, PS pretty much nailed it. I'm assuming Morello (or whoever) thinks that having a jungler makes the play dynamics in the laning phase a lot more interesting since ganks add an element of anticipation and unexpectedness to the otherwise fairly static gameplay that exists in the early laning phase, and as such the 1/1/2/jungler meta is the sacred cow that Riot don't want to mess up.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Are you an idiot? Making it harder to farm your jungle from lane would in fact change shit. It would not be sufficient all on it's own, but it changes things to make farming less ideal, the thing where they give shit XP also does the same thing. Combined little niggling things will combine to make it not the most efficient thing. Hell, half of season three was dominated by assassin lane clear mids who pushed the lane to go gank side lanes, not to farm fucking wraiths anyway.

Mids still farmed wraiths when they could, it's just that assassins have the mobility and skills to waveclear and gank, which is more valuable than waveclearing and then taking a camp. Orianna farmed wraiths in S3, still does farm wraiths, and will always farm wraiths until they nerf her or buff wraiths even more. Cassiopeia does the same thing. Non-mobile mids take wraiths because they can't gank effectively, mobile mids gank.

They change the jungle a lot because they're trying to find a good balance between jungle difficulty and jungle value (League went from "jungler not required" to "jungler required" to "anyone can jungle" to "specific champs can jungle" in a couple years). The one thing you really can't do to the jungle at this point is make it have less of an effect on the map, because the role is already so trivial to begin with from an objective standpoint.

Thicker walls makes counterjungling more dangerous (if they get thick enough to stop flashes), it does not make it harder to farm the jungle. Longer paths to lanes makes the game more about farming the jungle, which is not only the most boring part of the game (pure PvE), but it reduces the impact of the role.

I don't know why Riot loves the jungle role so much (though I think Korgan's reason of "ganks make things exciting" is a good reason), but they really want it to stay alive. Rich duo lanes would kill the current jungle.

[Kaelik]

Thicker walls makes counterjungling more dangerous (if they get thick enough to stop flashes), it does not make it harder to farm the jungle. Longer paths to lanes makes the game more about farming the jungle, which is not only the most boring part of the game (pure PvE), but it reduces the impact of the role.

You are a fucking idiot. Longer paths to the lane makes it more about junglers farming the jungle, and less about laners farming the jungle. It is therefore a direct contradiction of your claim that making thicker walls won't change laners farming mid.

You keep doing a bullshit bait and switch where you claim that because you make it harder for the jungler to get to lane, therefore the game is more about farming the jungle(for the jungler) and therefore it more about farming the jungle (for the laners).

That is a completely bullshit bait and switch and I don't know why you keep saying it.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

You are a fucking idiot. Longer paths to the lane makes it more about junglers farming the jungle, and less about laners farming the jungle. It is therefore a direct contradiction of your claim that making thicker walls won't change laners farming mid.

You keep doing a bullshit bait and switch where you claim that because you make it harder for the jungler to get to lane, therefore the game is more about farming the jungle(for the jungler) and therefore it more about farming the jungle (for the laners).

That is a completely bullshit bait and switch and I don't know why you keep saying it.

Thickened walls != longer paths. Maybe by a fucking second, but not enough to matter. You'd have to remake the jungle in its entirety to make laners not want to farm the jungle because it's too out of the way. It's not a bait and switch, your idea is just a non-solution. Thickening jungle walls to the point of flashing over not working hardly increases the time needed to reach the camp a laner wants to farm, it just makes wall jumping with flash impossible for those walls (and thus makes invades more dangerous).

Unless you want to thicken the walls to a ridiculous point it won't make laners want to stop farming the jungle. You'd have to remake the entire thing.

Edit: New favorite thing I've ever heard in a League game: "The reason this [game] is hard is one team has an ADC, the other has cancer."

[Kaelik]

Thickened walls != longer paths. Maybe by a fucking second, but not enough to matter. You'd have to remake the jungle in its entirety to make laners not want to farm the jungle because it's too out of the way. It's not a bait and switch, your idea is just a non-solution. Thickening jungle walls to the point of flashing over not working hardly increases the time needed to reach the camp a laner wants to farm, it just makes wall jumping with flash impossible for those walls (and thus makes invades more dangerous).

Unless you want to thicken the walls to a ridiculous point it won't make laners want to stop farming the jungle. You'd have to remake the entire thing.

Once again. I will reiterate the statement that small changes add up. Because you apparently are rejecting every possible change on the principle that it doesn't do it enough.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Once again. I will reiterate the statement that small changes add up. Because you apparently are rejecting every possible change on the principle that it doesn't do it enough.

No, a single thing needs to prevent farming the jungle from lanes because each circumstance that would stop a champ from farming the jungle is (mostly) independent of other circumstances.

The flowchart for farming a jungle camp near your lane is the following:

1. Have I cleared the wave?
If yes, continue.
2. Is there something better I can do than farm the jungle before the next wave hits?
If no, continue.
3. Can I reach and clear the camp and clear it before the next wave starts dying?
If yes, continue.
4. Do I have the ability to clear this camp without taking too much damage/using too much mana?
If yes, continue.
5. Did my lane opponent go MIA with high health/mana?
If no, fucking farm that camp.

let's go through this.

1 is made harder by more frequent or tougher waves. It does affect 3 if clear times are increased by more than a normal waveclear champ's rotation, or if minion waves just appear more often.

2 is champ based.

3 is affected by camp distance and camp health.

4 is affected by camp damage and heath, but camp damage/health hurts junglers way more than it hurts laners.

5 is based on your opponent.

Unless you screw with how lanes work you're not fixing the jungle any time soon (note: 25 second waves could probably solve the jungle farming problem, but add a million other problems).

[Kaelik]

Once again. I will reiterate the statement that small changes add up. Because you apparently are rejecting every possible change on the principle that it doesn't do it enough.

No, a single thing needs to prevent farming the jungle from lanes because each circumstance that would stop a champ from farming the jungle is (mostly) independent of other circumstances.

Wholly fucking shit. I am arguing with someone who legitimately thinks that 1+1=1.

Do you not understand that you can combine smaller more limited changes to make jungle camps less accessible to the lane in order to make them less likely to farm.

You don't just have to buff the camps damage or health to break the midlaner, you can buff it slightly, and make the walls thicker and make the walls longer and adjust turret health and gold, and all these things will combine to make farming the jungle less effecient than any single change.

That is really how things work. You really can make small changes that combine.

Also your flow chart is stupid, because yo forgot to ask if the camp was up, and if the jungler was right fucking there. And of course, it misses the more important concept of pushing lanes to tower to get the first tower down to snowball and/or deprive farm.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Wholly fucking shit. I am arguing with someone who legitimately thinks that 1+1=1.

Nope.

Do you not understand that you can combine smaller more limited changes to make jungle camps less accessible to the lane in order to make them less likely to farm.

You have to make changes that apply to multiple circumstances that make laners NOT want to farm the jungle.

You don't just have to buff the camps damage or health to break the midlaner, you can buff it slightly, and make the walls thicker and make the walls longer and adjust turret health and gold, and all these things will combine to make farming the jungle less effecient than any single change.

Negative, because if the jungle gets TOO HARD TO GANK MID LANE FROM you will not see junglers. One of the few lanes junglers provide massive pressure on is the mid lane. If wraiths can be warded so that the jungler takes 20+ seconds to walk around the wards (currently around 10 seconds to walk to baron, ward jump through, and then gank through the river) there will be no mid ganks from the baron side.

Also your flow chart is stupid, because yo forgot to ask if the camp was up, and if the jungler was right fucking there. And of course, it misses the more important concept of pushing lanes to tower to get the first tower down to snowball and/or deprive farm.

The jungler is never "right fucking there" if you have half a clue what wards are. Bad kids don't ward, but in 90% of the teams (where you remind them to not be retarded) you will see the jungle warded early. Early jungle ganks are obvious, you are not getting killed unless you're trying to apply huge early pressure (aka let your jungle steal a buff and snowball a lane).

It's hard to understand when everyone is bad, and that doesn't mean the players at your level are good/bad. Wards dictate the game. Even at gold you win based on your support/vision if your team is good, because they will create/prevent picks. Your idea of balancing the jungle is admirable, but it would take YEARS of work to make it viable. Nobody is calling you stupid, we're just telling you Riot is (likely) pretty smart and taking careful steps.

[Kaelik]

Negative, because if the jungle gets TOO HARD TO GANK MID LANE FROM you will not see junglers. One of the few lanes junglers provide massive pressure on is the mid lane. If wraiths can be warded so that the jungler takes 20+ seconds to walk around the wards (currently around 10 seconds to walk to baron, ward jump through, and then gank through the river) there will be no mid ganks from the baron side.

Dude, you can already place a ward that covers the entire wraiths to baron opening right now. You can do it with a trinket or with a ward. You can place it right now. Making the path slightly longer is not going to make it so that wards cover the whole thing, they already cover the whole thing. it is getting there to place the ward that is hard, and hey, another thing in your flowchart that you might do instead of farming wraiths.

The jungler is never "right fucking there" if you have half a clue what wards are. Bad kids don't ward, but in 90% of the teams (where you remind them to not be retarded) you will see the jungle warded early. Early jungle ganks are obvious, you are not getting killed unless you're trying to apply huge early pressure (aka let your jungle steal a buff and snowball a lane).

Okay,

1) You fucking idiot. Your goddam jungler. Your goddam jungler might be there. at your wraiths. You fucktard.

2) Your gold level elitism is cute and all, but maybe, instead of just assuming I'm an idiot who can't ward, you could maybe consider other possibilities, like that since I just brought up the fact that the camp could not be up, IE, because there exists some nebulous person who farmed it, you might consider that my invocation of the jungler is the one about to farm it.

I know that unless you farm wraiths at level fucking 1, several species of jungler will kill the first 3-4 wraith spawns before you can do anything because the timings involve them hitting them instantly on spawn. Now, whether or not Season 4 LCS will involve farm junglers or not, I don't know, but Shyana is Queen of the Diamond solo que right now.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

1. I'm not certain where you're putting this ward. When i saw "ward wraiths" I mean drop it in bush outside of red so it gets vision of the camp itself (you want its spawn time) or in the bush at the entrance to their jungle from mid lane between the outer and inner turrets. If you're talking about warding the river itself you're literally only preventing ganks on your lane with that ward, which is wasteful as fuck for mid to do.


2. You're talking about your own jungler farming wraiths when they have a mid who takes wraiths? That's crazy, people want their team to win so they let mids who farm wraiths take wraiths. The whole point of having mid farm wraiths is so they'll get enormous and carry from it while the jungler gets to spend more time ganking. The team should be behind the strategy of letting mid take wraiths.

3. Diamond elitism, bitch. But regardless, people who don't ward are everywhere, you still have to remind them to use trinkets sometimes.

4. I'm not saying farm junglers do not exist. They do and they should totally farm up because they're efficient farmers. We were talking about the jungle role's potential to go away if the jungle is nerfed or duo lanes are buffed. If all things remain equal the jungler will exist, but if you want supports to be richer you will lose the jungler at some point.

5. Just played a game as Taric, went for about 25 minutes and I had over 8k gold, more than our jungle or top lane. Supports are a lot better off than they used to be goldwise, because I still had fewer kills than our jungle.

[Kaelik]

1. I'm not certain where you're putting this ward. When i saw "ward wraiths" I mean drop it in bush outside of red so it gets vision of the camp itself (you want its spawn time) or in the bush at the entrance to their jungle from mid lane between the outer and inner turrets. If you're talking about warding the river itself you're literally only preventing ganks on your lane with that ward, which is wasteful as fuck for mid to do.

I'm not sure how you could possibly be confused or why it would matter. You claimed that if you lengthen the walls, junglers will have to go all the way around Baron (Or Dragon if they are on Blue side) to gank, because the ward will cover everything from wraith wall to Baron wall.

What I am saying is that they already do. You put a ward in the bush by River side of Red and it covers everything between Baron and jungle. So your absurd claim that junglers won't be able to gank mid if you lengthen the walls is fucking stupid.

The team should be behind the strategy of letting mid take wraiths.

No it shouldn't. It should be behind the optimal strategy, which very often isn't that.

We were talking about the jungle role's potential to go away if the jungle is nerfed or duo lanes are buffed.

No, that is definitely not fucking even remotely what we are talking about. Absolutely no one but you was talking about the jungle being nerfed, and you apparently are talking about it for no fucking reason at all.