How do we get rid of the Fighter

[virgil]

The Tome Fighter is a literal crime against humanity.

Somebody needs to get their dictionary inspected, because 'literal' doesn't mean what you think it means. Granted, since you are our brave defender of the definition of D&D, I guess other words fall within your bailiwick.

Seriously. Mistborn is dumb in a lot of ways, but you are going to criticize someone for using literal for emphasis?

For him, yes. As Aryxbez pointed out, he's yet to answer claims from 13 pages ago. Foil apparently makes him wet his pants. Combined with his poor reasons against and reactions to the Tome Fighter, one can see there's no room for faith, truth, nor honesty in his bosom.

[Kaelik]

For him, yes. As Aryxbez pointed out, he's yet to answer claims from 13 pages ago. Foil apparently makes him wet his pants. Combined with his poor reasons against and reactions to the Tome Fighter, one can see there's no room for faith, truth, nor honesty in his bosom.

Which is an argument for saying any of those other things instead of complaining that he used the word literal for emphasis, thus allowing him to respond and be right.

[Maxus]

I move we put Mistborn under the Curse of Elennsar. He's starting to strongly remind me of Elennsar, anyway.

[Drolyt]

I move we put Mistborn under the Curse of Elennsar. He's starting to strongly remind me of Elennsar, anyway.

I've seen Elennsar mentioned on these forums before. What was up with him?

[Maxus]

I move we put Mistborn under the Curse of Elennsar. He's starting to strongly remind me of Elennsar, anyway.

I've seen Elennsar mentioned on these forums before. What was up with him?

He showed up, wasn't so bad for a while, talked his own idea of what good game design/so forth was.

Then somehow translated to Combat Should Be Uber Lethal, but he had contradictory design goals and a resistance to defining stuff as probability and math--If I remember right, Frank blocked him because Elennsar refused to agree that something which may happen has a mathematically definable chance of happening. I can't remember all the specifics, but he tried to start up a project called Artorius, which is around the time of the Historical King Arthur, sorta after the fall of Rome. If you're really interested, you can click on his user name and view a list of all his posts from his profile menu.

Really, someone having a pronounced 'ar' in their name seems to be a bad sign. Elennsar, Shadzar, we had a dumbass trying to troll the Shadowrun Situation thread named "Caldazar" for a while, and there might be one or two which slip my mind. I call 'em the retARds.

Anyway, back on point. Mistborn argues in circles, makes retarded arguments to begin with, and he seems to be approaching GC's ego singularity. He's enough like Elennsar. The downward spiral is beginning, and I see no further profit in reading his actual posts, so I put him on ignore. The collateral wisdom gained by reading the responses to him is nice, though. The same thing happened with the retards, and Psychic Robot and Tzor (although those were more politics/economics).

This is your Gaming Den history lesson, brought to you by Maxus, Remembering Shit Since, Like, 2007-2008.

[Wiseman]

I played a 10th level Tome Fighter, and I can attest that I had fun and did interesting things. Between foil action and improved delay, I had interesting tactical decisions to make each round. If I was unsure what I actually wanted to do, or what was best, I'd delay. If an enemy tried to pull off a spell or supermove of some sort, you would interrupt their turn, move at them, foil them, and probably hit them to boot. Then you'd probably get your next turn before theirs came up and wreck them for even thinking of trying to do something cool. If nobody tried anything cool? Awesome, double turn to run around.

So the problem here isn't that the Tome Fighter isn't good or fun in combat.

Well, maybe my perception is a bit off because I normally play spellcasters. Everything you are describing sounds rather boring to me compared to shapeshifting, teleportation, summoning, creating illusions, I could go on. I think the biggest problem with melee in D&D is that it is boring. I don't see how being able to move your turn around or block other characters' actions makes swinging your sword less boring.

Thank you! Finally we hit the nail on the head. That's the main issue I have with melee characters and why I vote to just give them magic powers like anyone else. Even if it's "anime style bullshit" actually especially if it's "anime style bullshit". Otherwise it's fucking repetitive and boring and there's only so much that you can do with it.

[virgil]

He showed up, wasn't so bad for a while, talked his own idea of what good game design/so forth was.

I heavily disagree that Mistborn is as bad as Elennsar; kind of harsh even. That poster was literally the cause for us to have an ignore function. In five months, there were two thousand posts; which is a stupefying rate of posting diarrhea for this forum.

[Maxus]

He showed up, wasn't so bad for a while, talked his own idea of what good game design/so forth was.

I heavily disagree that Mistborn is as bad as Elennsar; kind of harsh even. That poster was literally the cause for us to have an ignore function. In five months, there were two thousand posts; which is a stupefying rate of posting diarrhea for this forum.

The fruitless circular arguments are starting to remind me of the big E.

So I'm cutting my losses.

I'd forgotten that Elennsar's what made us get the fancy Ignore function, though. Huh.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Gaining weird ass super powers just applies the same logic to class features. In a way I can sort of relate--sometimes in D&D I kinda feel like I already won the game way back in character creation, so in theory, at least, I can see the appeal of having to adjust to power sets I haven't already previously examined.

If that is what people want then that dream is a lot more realizable than you could imagine.

Seriously. Just make things like 'halfling wizard sidekick' or 'orphanage full of psychic little kids who research shit and maintain your giant robot' tangible and fungible (but not refundable) rewards and advancement geegaw. Players get tokens to bid on things that they want and then the DM and/or player is obligated to come up with a way to make it fit in the story. The biddable story rewards can either be randomly generated, cooked up entirely by DM fiat, or some combination thereof.

The 'Fighter' class would be different in that he got more advancement tokens to bid on in return for fewer class features. There is of course no reason why they couldn't be the only class in the game with this feature, but you'd end up with either page bloat that only one class can use or repeats. But someone like Elothar, Warrior of Bladereach could totally be generated with that method. His 'class' is that he was guaranteed some randomly generated advancement tchotchke every level (as opposed to the other classes, who only got something like once a campaign) and got to roll on the more favorable tables.

Now obviously there are a lot of caveats to this approach. We talked about them in two other threads that really got off of the rails once people started screeching that not being able to unilaterally select the exact resource tokens whenever the hell they wanted completely wrecked their character and the game experience. But that's the basic idea.

[rasmuswagner]

"Organic Character Growth", in the context of d&d, is stupid for several reasons.

First of all, there are way too many shit choices, trap options, and multilevel prerequisite chains in the game for organic growth to be a reasonable choice compared to a "build".
Second, the game has never actually had "organic growth" as a reasonable option. What you did back in Ad&d wasn't "organic", it was "take whatever random-ass shit the GM gives you; if you want a specific improvement, suck more cock". Especially the Fighter, of course; after he chose his weapon specialization at level 1, the only choice he would make for the rest of his life would be NWPs, which meant even less than "Skills that are not Perception, Stealth or diplomacy" does in 3rd.

[Omegonthesane]

Go fuck yourself the issues with the Tome Fighter are well known

Not to me they aren't. Though I assume they've been expounded in a mroe sensible form than you tend to provide.

[RadiantPhoenix]

What I remember is something about not contributing enough out of combat. (Although it does at least have magic item crafting and skills)

[Mistborn]

What I remember is something about not contributing enough out of combat. (Although it does at least have magic item crafting and skills)

The Tome Fighter can't actually make items that anyone gives a shit about with Forge Lore because he doesn't know any spells.

There have I "explained things" enough for you asshole?

Well, there is still the other stuff that you haven't answered. (becoming a little nested, due to your negligence, latter link show you to other stuff gone unexplained). Otherwise, I suppose that is satisfactory for me sure, but whether it'll be so overall, I suppose only the future posts responding to yours will tell.

Fuck you asshole, if you idiots don't know what the original source material for D&D was that's your problem. Why don't you go find out for yourself instead of bitching at me.

Somebody needs to get their dictionary inspected, because 'literal' doesn't mean what you think it means. Granted, since you are our brave defender of the definition of D&D, I guess other words fall within your bailiwick.

Yeah I really should have put you on ignore during the GC debacle, fortunately I've corrected that now.

[Omegonthesane]

There have I "explained things" enough for you asshole?

Well, there is still the other stuff that you haven't answered. (becoming a little nested, due to your negligence, latter link show you to other stuff gone unexplained). Otherwise, I suppose that is satisfactory for me sure, but whether it'll be so overall, I suppose only the future posts responding to yours will tell.

Fuck you asshole, if you idiots don't know what the original source material for D&D was that's your problem. Why don't you go find out for yourself instead of bitching at me.

Dig up the evidence yourself - it is for you to present proof for your own case, not merely to claim it can be found.

[Mistborn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_an ... 26_Dragons

Now stop whining

[nockermensch]

*things*

Whoa dude, did you forget to take your happy pills, or what?

[Wrathzog]

He's been like this for about a month or so?
I am honestly concerned.

[virgil]

He's been like this for about a month or so?
I am honestly concerned.

One could say he's been slowly degenerating since the GC incident, and one could say he's always like this and only now found something to go derpy over. Granted, you can also say "muffins need more sauerkraut before consumption over the Danube," which goes to show the potential nonsense without context. In regards to actual context however, I think it's actually closer to the "since Roy exploded" idea, because he was largely on Roy's side throughout that meltdown. Not to say he's a sockpuppet, but the ill-will toward the forum was solidly cemented by that incident, and that always seems to start a self-fulfilling death spiral.

And a super secret message, just for Mistborn, in case he ever reads this post.

[nockermensch]

He's been like this for about a month or so?
I am honestly concerned.

One could say he's been slowly degenerating since the GC incident, and one could say he's always like this and only now found something to go derpy over. Granted, you can also say "muffins need more sauerkraut before consumption over the Danube," which goes to show the potential nonsense without context. In regards to actual context however, I think it's actually closer to the "since Roy exploded" idea, because he was largely on Roy's side throughout that meltdown. Not to say he's a sockpuppet, but the ill-will toward the forum was solidly cemented by that incident, and that always seems to start a self-fulfilling death spiral.

1. The super secret image is broken for me. I managed to see it by right-clicking the broken img and "opening on new tab" (it's adorable, btw).

2. Well, isn't that a pity? I was looking forward that Nanoha RPG.

[Drolyt]

GC incident

What was that?

[nockermensch]

GC incident

What was that?

Oh boy...

[Maxus]

GC incident

What was that?

There was a poster, named Roy, who eventually ragequit or got banned, I can't remember which.

If I recall aright, he came back as "Mr. GC" (the gimp-culler), and Mistborn came over with him. They played D&D together, or something.

So GC talked a lot of shit about how the Den isn't on his level and we all play D&D in easy mode and basically showed a classic case of Internet Narcissism where he was, as I like to put it, an ego singularity. He even alienated Mistborn, and got himself banned. Again.

And Mistborn's been with us ever since, and has started circling circling the drain.

[infected slut princess]

From days bygone...

Seriously, without resorting to game rules or mechanical descriptions but only referencing stuff in the class, describe to me how a level 15 fighter is different from a level 5 fighter. Like you were writing a story in a book or filming a movie.

• He makes his own magic weapon to kill the big bad guy.
• He can perform stunts that allow him to attack giant monsters without putting himself in harm's way.
• He can interrupt magical powers of wizards and even foil dragon breath.
• He can, through force of will, turn himself back to flesh from having been turned into stone long enough to stab the evil wizard in the belly.
• He has several additional feat-based tricks available that might or might not be different from what a different 5th level Fighter was doing.

So yes, the Tome Fighter is totally different at 15th level than he is at 5th. And not just because he has bigger numbers. Your complaint is a little bit like whining about how if a Wizard just grabs a bunch of Enchantment school spells, they aren't any apparently different at 15th level than they are at 1st - especially if their enemies happen to be orcs.

In D&D land, you need magic to harm certain enemies and you need magic to go various places. The Tome Fighter is allowed to make magic weapons and magic clothes that in turn allow him to harm those enemies and go those places. Problem: solved.

In D&D land, you are compelled to deal with enemies who can blow up the entire building you are in and turn you to stone with a glance. The Tome Fighter can interrupt and foil those actions and even shrug off magical ensorcelment. Problem: solved.

Yes, the Tome Fighter has no special ability to remake the continent or change the techlevel of the setting. The Tome Fighter actually has relatively little ability to generate plot points. But he has a reasonable diplomacy score and he can participate in the actual adventures at all levels. Many people have complained that he is too Batman, since his planning based abilities are all reactive, meaning that he has an appropriate counter to pull out basically all the time.

But the Tome Fighter does solve the issues people seem to have. They want a character that plays like a sword wielding character from a fantasy movie who is nonetheless able to adventure in D&D adventures at all levels without feeling like a sidekick or sitting out most of the adventure. He does do that.

-Username17

[Aryxbez]

See Mistborn? was it that hard to provide evidence, now the discussion can progress for the better! However true, there is source material, source material for fantasy in general, has advanced, and a "new" D&D is going to advance with the times. Especially when it brings up this notion:

Because where I'm standing a 20th level wizard has more to do with The Martian Manhunter than Gandalf. Unless you also want to scale back the spellcasters you have to accept that fighters need to draw on source material outside of sword and sorcery.

From days bygone...

It worked as the solution for 3rd edition, it works as temporary solution for something that already exists. However, going forward, in regards to fixing them for the future of a new Fantasy RPG, going to want to attach power source for fiat & player agency. You can have multiple of them, doesn't have to "sound" spellcaster-y, but you indeed want to have one, even if it's just "Wuxia". Otherwise, I'd imagine there wouldn't be any issue with the way [Tome] Soldier has Ex-based superpowers for being that awesome (I'm fine with that, but still brings up the concern in the link).

[Mistborn]

but the ill-will toward the forum was solidly cemented by that incident

No that that incident cemented my ill will towards you personally because until GC started spamming the board you were winning the asshole prize in that thread by a wide margin.

See Mistborn? was it that hard to provide evidence, now the discussion can progress for the better! However true, there is source material, source material for fantasy in general, has advanced, and a "new" D&D is going to advance with the times.

There is no source material that gives you level 11+ Fighters full stop. You can not square this circle and make mundane sword guy a valid high level option. It. Can. Not. Be. Done.