The Gaming Den

Oh, so we're not dropping the topic after all? Okay.

Night Goat wrote:Actually I can't do practically anything and everything, because I wasn't born rich. I also have mental health issues that make doing things extremely difficult for me, which is why it fucking makes my blood boil when people think my life must be just peachy because I'm not a homosexual, woman or minority.

Hello friend I am white and have a dick, and I am severely fucked in the head and the finances!

My skin color means that when I went to the psych ward, it was fairly painless for me to get the care I needed, get out fairly soon, and get fast-tracked into regular therapy+medication. I mean, my state of residence helps a lot there too, but statistically I definitely couldn't have expected the standard of care I got were I not white.

My penis means that I can have a job selling and fixing computers. For comparison, someone from the copy center came over to grab something a couple weeks ago and my manager literally made a joke about how there was a giiirl behind the teeech bench hur hur hur. Pretttttty sure my exact same skill set wouldn't have gotten me the job I have now if I didn't also have a dick.

Yeah, being mentally disabled is fucking shit and you get treated like shit and everything is terrible - but being white means it's not as bad and it's easier to cope. Being poor is awful and the level of institutional machinery to keep you that way is infuriating, but being male makes it not as bad as it could be.

The important thing to note is this:
Privilege doesn't mean your life is peachy, it means you get a free boost compared to other people as a result of things you did not (and could not) choose. It means you started with an advantage in that area. Naturally, you don't have the awesome super-win power that someone with an advantage in all the areas has, but try to be aware that being born white is an advantage you have in the same way that being born rich is an advantage you don't have.

I know for a fact that I'm living a life juiced with glorious white privilege.

It is wonderful and I recommend it to everyone.

Hold on Momo, Night Goat did drop the subject. It was Fearsomepirate that kept going.

So, people have already done a pretty good job of explaining the actual concept of privilege. I want to also ask people who walked in operating on the tumblr definition to not let tumblr continue defining words for you. The oppression olympics are stupid, insane, and harmful to people who have genuine problems to deal with, and letting tumblr define words like "privilege" means that it's impossible to discuss certain issues (including, incidentally, mental health issues) without playing into their narrative. So don't let them do that. They're liars, so there's no reason you should trust them to be painting you a perfectly accurate image of what "privilege" means, or any other word (most of tumblr's shibboleths are stolen jargon from other communities, not their own invention, basically the original character do not steal of the vocabulary world). They've quietly redefined that word into some original sin bullshit, and any time someone calls them on it they try to retreat to its original, sane definition and claim that their opponents are clearly trying to minimize the plight of oppressed minorities. And people keep letting them get away with it, and I'm really starting to get sick of it.

I got my Patriarchy Membership Card in the mail this morning. Life is good.

mean_liar wrote:I know for a fact that I'm living a life juiced with glorious white privilege.

It is wonderful and I recommend it to everyone.

It really is wonderful. Let's be friends. We can look down on so many people! And ride bikes!

I like how fearsome pirate believes institutional racism isn't real so hard that they assume that even leftists believe it could only exist as a tiny conspiracy being perpetrated by a privileged few.

Look, a lot of the time the bullshit you have to put up with as a person of color isn't all that complicated or intentionally mean-spirited. Oftentimes it's just this maddening process of constantly being held accountable for shit other people in your ethnic group did. That whole thing where whites are at risk of being considered racist just by virtue of being white? Black people have the same problem, just splashed across more categories--they're often under suspicion of being ignorant thugs until they can prove otherwise and dumb, simple shit like that can be a real problem when so many jobs require you to manage the cash box or be the one to close up the shop at night.

On a disheartening personal note, I'm half Mexican and can pass without even trying. My dad was full-on ginger Irish, so I've got hazel eyes and a comically white name. My younger half-sister, however, is short and brown, so I've had a front row seat my entire life as people have said some of the most amazing bullshit imaginable to her. These days she also suffers from that thing where white people are completely incapable of telling how old she is. She works as a photo tech at a drug store and I've seen people walk right up to her and scold her for getting knocked up and not having stayed in school, which is weird, because she's 26, married and has an AA degree. She doesn't think she'll ever make manager and really, with the way I've seen customers treat her she's probably right.

Kaelik wrote:

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:I thought the tranny remark was funny too. If people want to get all offended over an in joke.... They can go back to rpg.net and commune with other thin skinned social justice warriors where people get banned for this sort of thing. I personally have had enough pc censorship on the Internet.

Oh look, guy who joined in May of 2014 and has 50 posts is telling us that we don't belong on TGD if we care about things like racism, sexism, and transphobia, because he knows the attitude of TGD better than us.

You're right, I haven't been here long enough to see if people get banned for airing heterodox opinions. I was under the impression that this place did not ban people except for the truly obnoxious like Shadzar or whatever his name was.

rpg.net bans people for all sorts of thin skinned stuff. No one's feelings are allowed to be hurt, ever, or be offended, ever. If you accidentally hurt or offend someone's feelings there, you can expect to get warnings, and if you keep it up, banned.

For example, saying furries are people experiencing some kind of mental health problem, will get you a warning because "there are other-kin here and we need to be sensitive to their feelings."


DSMatticus, you're right, saying "PC censorship" really does bring up a host of associations that I didn't necessarily intend. It's just irritating to see that something people were having some genuine chuckles about gets turned into "EVERYONE AT TGDMB HATES TRANSVESTITES WHAT KIND OF BIGOTS ARE YOU GUYS?!"

Sometimes things are funny because they're inappropriate or off color and that's part of the humor. No one is talking about actually mistreating transvestites, no one is talking about actually going out an DOING mean things to transvestites, and I highly doubt anyone here has any interest in actually being a dick to transvestites in real life.

I'm of the opinion we should let people say what they want to say, what they really feel... Because how else are you going to change people's minds? Demanding self censorship beyond a certain point seems to actually create more prejudice and bigotry.

Leress wrote:Fuck...

fearsomepirate wrote: If an active, malicious conspiracy by a tiny cabal of old, rich, white, Christian, politically conservative men is so thoroughly capable of repressing blacks in literally every aspect of life (except sports) even in progressive-dominated cities in progressive-dominated states like Boston and Baltimore, we wouldn't see Asians beating whites in anything, and the pay gap should be a lot larger than 6%. We shouldn't see the most-educated, highest-educated people in the country voting Democrat, either.

The "old, rich, white, heterosexual, conservative, Christian men don't want brown people, gays, and women to succeed" just isn't a good explanation.

Except no one here is saying that.

Yes, they are, implicitly, by endlessly going on how privileged I am for being an anglo-saxon white male! As if I'm part of a cabal with secret meetups every week with other white dudes on how to keep brown people down. I am implicitly being called a racist, there's an immediate insinuation that there's something wrong with being a white male, when I'm told I have "privilege", as if there's something I must immediately do, or say, to show that I'm not one of those white guys. You know, the racist ones.

There is absolutely nothing I can do about changing my gender or skin color, so going on how privileged I am just alienates me. Telling people, who really don't feel privileged, (i.e. middle class white men), whom, in their own society are not that privileged, that they are in fact, very privileged and some kind of oppressor is, IMO, really stupid and causes way more problems than it solves.

When I think of "privilege" - I think of wealthy people with status and influence, who have no need to work, servants, long vacations to tropical countries, own art, have expensive cars, and beautiful clothes etc. That IS MOST DEFINITELY privilege, of which, I have NONE.

Telling me I am "privileged" is an insult, it is intended as an insult, so when I act insulted for being insulted, one should not actually be surprised.

Anyone else object to having fbmf spin off this discussion topic to another thread? I'd like to say a lot more than I already have but we're getting way the hell off topic.

Lago: start your own dumb thread if you think it's so important. Or post in this one since it's already been thoroughly ruined with teh whiny bitching of you and your friends.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:You're right, I haven't been here long enough to see if people get banned for airing heterodox opinions. I was under the impression that this place did not ban people except for the truly obnoxious like Shadzar or whatever his name was.

rpg.net bans people for all sorts of thin skinned stuff. No one's feelings are allowed to be hurt, ever, or be offended, ever. If you accidentally hurt or offend someone's feelings there, you can expect to get warnings, and if you keep it up, banned.

...

I'm of the opinion we should let people say what they want to say, what they really feel... Because how else are you going to change people's minds? Demanding self censorship beyond a certain point seems to actually create more prejudice and bigotry.

You are a fucking idiot. Let's go over the series of events:

1) Someone calls something tranny of the dragons.
2) Some people say that tranny of the dragons isn't funny and/or is transphobic.
3) You say that people who are offended should leave this forum (which would mean stop posting right?). To whit: "If people want to get all offended over an in joke.... They can go back to rpg.net and commune with other thin skinned social justice warriors where people get banned for this sort of thing."
4) Now you defend yourself as saying "people should be able to say what they want!"

Guess what dumbshit, saying that something is offensive is fucking saying what we want. Telling you that you are in fact a complete idiot, and hey, also actually hurting trans people by using them as a synonym for bad even if you aren't talking about actively hurting them, is saying what we want.

You were the one saying that people who were offended by offensive things should stop telling other people. You, like every concern troll ever, are demanding that people not tell you when you are doing something shitty because you don't want your feelings hurt. Fuck you, no one cares about your feelings, so we are going to keep pointing out the things that you say and do are shitty and stupid.

I swear I get disappointed every time I click this thread expecting 5e hate only to remember it got taken over by a derail about transphobia.

Seerow wrote: I swear I get disappointed every time I click this thread expecting 5e hate only to remember it got taken over by a derail about transphobia.

I tried, just have to wait until fbmf move the post to a new thread.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:Yes, they are, implicitly, by endlessly going on how privileged I am for being an anglo-saxon white male! As if I'm part of a cabal with secret meetups every week with other white dudes on how to keep brown people down. I am implicitly being called a racist, there's an immediate insinuation that there's something wrong with being a white male, when I'm told I have "privilege", as if there's something I must immediately do, or say, to show that I'm not one of those white guys. You know, the racist ones.

There is absolutely nothing I can do about changing my gender or skin color, so going on how privileged I am just alienates me. Telling people, who really don't feel privileged, (i.e. middle class white men), whom, in their own society are not that privileged, that they are in fact, very privileged and some kind of oppressor is, IMO, really stupid and causes way more problems than it solves.

When I think of "privilege" - I think of wealthy people with status and influence, who have no need to work, servants, long vacations to tropical countries, own art, have expensive cars, and beautiful clothes etc. That IS MOST DEFINITELY privilege, of which, I have NONE.

Telling me I am "privileged" is an insult, it is intended as an insult, so when I act insulted for being insulted, one should not actually be surprised.

Ah, I see.
Okay around here people are explicit in what they say. Now you maybe thinking that people here are implicitly saying that, but it seems like that is coming for other places that have said that to you. Several people in thread have said that there isn't a cabal, but more of a way society as a whole looks at various people. I will explicitly say that no you are not to blame for "white privilege" but you are given that by society. Now this does not mean that you are on easy street, just that you have an advantage outside of your control. So you can feel like you have it or not doesn't change that fact you still get that advantage. Will that advantage come up in every single facet in your life? No. Also you probably want to decouple the privilege and oppressor. Now many people will use that as an insult and treat you like it is your fault, but I am pretty sure a fair number of us here will not unless you start to say that make you blind to that fact.

So, people here aren't surprise when a person is insulted that they feel insulted, they are angry when it seem that you lumped every instance of being told you had white privilege the same here as when you were told at other places even though people have said exactly what they mean by that here.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote: For example, saying furries are people experiencing some kind of mental health problem, will get you a warning because "there are other-kin here and we need to be sensitive to their feelings."

You are right, around here you would not get a warning. You would be told you are a fucking idiot who doesn't know what they are talking about. See here is the thing, you can say what every you like around here, but so can everyone else. So if you say something that someone else doesn't like don't be surprise that they tell you so.

Virtually anything can be used as an insult, so you should probably consider that maybe you've got your head up your ass if you're really flipping out about this one particular way you suspect you're being insulted. Because, seriously, privilege is going to come up, because it's a relative concept. You may not feel privileged but given we're all talking about this shit on the internet right now I'm guessing we're all privileged compared to someone without say, water security.

Leress wrote:Hold on Momo, Night Goat did drop the subject. It was Fearsomepirate that kept going.

Mm. Fair point, though I really did mean "we" - I refrained from posting that initially because of the (yours, in fact) yellow card/ ->mpsims comment. But then everyone kept going so I assumed it wasn't a terrible derail.

Still, apologies to Night Goat.

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:For example, saying furries are people experiencing some kind of mental health problem, will get you a warning because "there are other-kin here and we need to be sensitive to their feelings."

Where's that one in the DSM? Or are you just one of those "I don't like it so anyone who does is broken somehow" sort of people?

It's just irritating to see that something people were having some genuine chuckles about gets turned into "EVERYONE AT TGDMB HATES TRANSVESTITES WHAT KIND OF BIGOTS ARE YOU GUYS?!"

Those aren't real quotes, that's just your imagination talking. Projecting. Almost like it's your conscience or something. Like everywhere you go people end up calling you a bigoted idiot and it just keeps happening so that's what you think people are doing here.

Sometimes things are funny because they're inappropriate or off color and that's part of the humor. … I highly doubt anyone here has any interest in actually being a dick to transvestites in real life.

There are transvestites here, this is real life, you are being a dick to transvestites in real life right now. You seem to have an interest in aggressively continuing to do so despite it being suggested to you that you might stop so as not to offend already.

I'm of the opinion we should let people say what they want to say, what they really feel... Because how else are you going to change people's minds? Demanding self censorship beyond a certain point seems to actually create more prejudice and bigotry.

Almost nothing is banned here. You don't even have to censor youself because [EDITED] and [EDITED] and stuff.

Yes, they are, implicitly, by endlessly going on how privileged I am

That's your imagination again. Projection. Conscience. A little piece of self-awareness desperately trying to catch your attention. Implications are things in your head, you see. Inferences are things other people make. No one inferred you're endlessly anything.

Telling me I am "privileged" is an insult, it is intended as an insult, so when I act insulted for being insulted, one should not actually be surprised.

You've been told repeatedly how that word is being used in this context. No one is calling you upper class, haute bourgeoisie, or a trust-fund kid. No one. You need not feel insulted, as that is super-clearly not happening. Pull your head out of your ass and pay attention to what other people are actually saying.

The concept at hand is that there are many kinds of privilege, including quite small and very inconsistent ones shared by a plurality of people. Where you might not gain anything on anyone you know and even have a bunch of shitty luck on top, but across society that goes better for strait white men than for other groups on average, even if it didn't for you or anyone else you know (though it totally did, you just didn't notice).

tussock wrote:

Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:For example, saying furries are people experiencing some kind of mental health problem, will get you a warning because "there are other-kin here and we need to be sensitive to their feelings."

Where's that one in the DSM?

Axis II, Histrionic Personality Disorder, Millon subtype "Theatrical"?

tussock wrote:Where's that one in the DSM? Or are you just one of those "I don't like it so anyone who does is broken somehow" sort of people?

You have to be a little careful with the furry topic, because it ranges from reasonable to batshit. Jerking it to cartoon characters with funny ears and body hair is just an inoffensive fetish; even fursuits are only moderately more stupid looking than gimp masks. But the declaration that you have the soul of a fox is obviously insane. Because you don't have a soul, and it cannot be a fox's soul. You're just a human being exploring a particular and atypical set of interests.

Sexual orientation is an arbitrary preference. It's important that we respect all sexual orientations. Genders are arbitrary social constructs. It's important that we respect people's desire to piss on those arbitrary social constructs when it makes them happy. Your sexual anatomy is a part of your body, and if you think you'll be happier having it surgically modified by all means - hopefully one day we get very good at doing that. But much like "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body" needs to remain a colorful description bemoaning the mismatch between your biological sex and the gender you wish to express yourself as, "I'm a fox trapped in a man's body" needs to not be a claim you are asserting as literally true. Because it's fucking crazy. Full-on otherkin are insane. But the thing where people think Krystal is kind of hot isn't even worth a doubletake.

I really see furry-ness as a modern day extension of ancient totemic traditions. There could be an interesting term paper in that, but I don't care enough to pursue that.

"I'm a fox trapped in a man's body" does not seem any more insane than "This cracker becomes the flesh of a middle-eastern jew who died 2000 years ago when I eat it." or "Invisible sky man hates you for something your ancestor did, but he loves everyone and will forgive you if you ask correctly."

The only difference between religion and insane beliefs is the number of people who agree with you.

TiaC wrote:"I'm a fox trapped in a man's body" does not seem any more insane than "This cracker becomes the flesh of a middle-eastern jew who died 2000 years ago when I eat it." or "Invisible sky man hates you for something your ancestor did, but he loves everyone and will forgive you if you ask correctly."

Well since you are addressing this to the TGD crowd of hardcore atheists who say the same thing about religious people all the time...

Although I vaguely recall DSM being wrong about this a long time ago in the agnosticism direction.

DSMatticus wrote:But much like "I'm a woman trapped in a man's body" needs to remain a colorful description bemoaning the mismatch between your biological sex and the gender you wish to express yourself as, "I'm a fox trapped in a man's body" needs to not be a claim you are asserting as literally true. Because it's fucking crazy.

I've always interpreted those two claims as being very similar. With otherkin basically being a colourful way of saying "I wish that I had the biological features of a fox instead of a human." It's a sentiment that I don't personally agree with (I would not enjoy being a fox and would not consent to be turned into one) but can understand and accept. If there were a procedure to make people be fox-shaped, I see no more reason to forbid people from undergoing it voluntarily than there would be for a procedure to make people be woman-shaped or man-shaped. Is there more to it than that? I've heard stories about various otherkin claiming to have elaborate stories about being reincarnated wolves or whatever, but that seems like someone's generic religiosity trying to come to terms with a real and valid preference rather than their preference itself being a mental illness.

DSMatticus wrote:You will note that African Americans have higher unemployment rates, not lower. Also, it has been demonstrated that between two identical resumes for two fictional people the one with the less "ethnic" name is far more likely to be given an interview for a position.

Thoughts on this study?

brized wrote:

DSMatticus wrote:You will note that African Americans have higher unemployment rates, not lower. Also, it has been demonstrated that between two identical resumes for two fictional people the one with the less "ethnic" name is far more likely to be given an interview for a position.

Thoughts on this study?

Off the top of my head, it occurs to me that no one actually hires people without seeing them, so racial stereotypes in the real world can just kick in when the person doing the hiring sees the person, instead of just when reading their name.