The Shadowrun Situation

[TheFlatline]

To be honest, I haven't really looked at the Matrix chapter in detail.

I saw the two page spread of "matrix jargon" and said, "Fuck you."

Then I went back to reading Kant, because it's more straightforward. And less needlessly complex. And more clearly written.

Yes, that's a philosophy nerd rip on the SR5 writers.

Oh noes! Who's next? McDonnalds workers?!

New matrix seems to be too fiddly to me, from the GM perspective - you need to track everyone's matrix stats, loaded programs, Overwatch Score, Matrix condition monitor, initiative, MARKs...

Matrix rules have always been a clusterfuck in Shadowrun. Franks Ends of the Matrix is nice, and consistent, and works, but I find it's way overkill. SR doesn't devote 50 pages to combat tactics in a magically awakened future tech world (although part of me wishes to fuck they would), and outside of the spell list the magic section is fairly manageable too. For some reason it's a trope in SR that as soon as you flick a computer on you have to go batshit crazy in this completely disconnected over the top shitstorm that integrates into the main game about as well as a Saint Bernard mates with a Chihuahua: You can make it work but some lubrication and a lot of booze is going to be required.

I'd like to see 1. What the matrix can do for someone who *isn't* a hacker, because it focuses so much on a hacker that normally in a game I rarely see non-hackers use the matrix, which is supposed to be fucking ubiquitous. Instead you get pseudo-Luddites who worship the all-powerful Hacker-Priest when it comes to looking up the number of the local Stuffer Shack. And no, I'm not talking about cyberware bonuses for being online. That's stupid and should be punished.

I'd also like to see 2. the complete abandonment of this fucked up need to seem like it's based on modern computer systems, and then throw the baby out with the bathwater because you're not an IT expert and know fuck-all about modern telecommunications. Invent a system that works within the game, and design the hacking and the normal user system so that it works and makes sense. Then when the rules work, go back and put in your set dressing and technobabble.

[Username17]

Technomancers are basically in the same boat they are in in SR4. They are able to get absolutely ridiculous dice pools on specialist tasks, they are going to be actually incapable on some others, and that is somewhere between broketastically overpowered and unplayably terrible depending on how your GM handles things.

Here's the core issue: Remember how to play a Decker you just had to spend six digits of Nuyen on equipment, some of which cost 5¥ or less? Now, remember how every single item is a wireless device? Technically, before you can do anything to anything in the Matrix, you have to spend an action analyzing its icon. And the average character is composed of like a hundred icons. So even if those analysis actions always worked (which they do not), we'd still be looking at dozens or hundreds of whois queries before any meaningful actions could be taken by anyone. Obviously, in actual practice you aren't going to be called upon to take all the actions or roll all the dice the book tells you that you have to. In fact, you aren't going to be rolling even one percent of the die rolls the book actually calls for.

But which tiny fraction of the tests in the book you are actually going to need to do is completely up in the air. It's really very possible that you're basically going to be making a single hacking test to see how good your hacking is. Obviously, if everything is reduced to a single test and it's something you're incapable at, you've just lost the game; while if everything is reduced to a single test and it's something that you are beyond mundane hacking potential dice pools because you have beneficial sprite powers and they don't, then you've just won the game.

But the matrix isn't just way too many die rolls, it's also way too many unique bullshit mechanics. Some ratings give dice pools, others set thresholds. Some give bonuses to standard matrix tasks, some allow you to do tasks that would otherwise be impossible. A starting technomancer can no-shit have access to things that set opponents' success threshold to their rating - at rating 12. That means that IC or hostile spiders have to roll twelve hits or GTFO (remember SR5 hit caps and how they are normally less than 12). On the other hand, the technomancer is also guaranteed to have actual holes in their resume, and as previously noted some of those line items simply allow you to act at all, so if those tasks come up, the technomancer literally cannot proceed.

The matrix rules are unplayable as written. And the technomancer rules interact with them badly, to the point of being even less playable. But you'll see people on internet boards complaining that technomancers are overpowered or useless. And both these groups of people are right.

-Username17

[Longes]

Technomancers are basically in the same boat they are in in SR4. They are able to get absolutely ridiculous dice pools on specialist tasks, they are going to be actually incapable on some others, and that is somewhere between broketastically overpowered and unplayably terrible depending on how your GM handles things.

How so? I know how SR4 TM gets big dicepools, but I struggle to see how SR5 technomancer will do that. I fail to find a single way where technomancer is better than decker.

Here's the core issue: Remember how to play a Decker you just had to spend six digits of Nuyen on equipment, some of which cost 5¥ or less? Now, remember how every single item is a wireless device? Technically, before you can do anything to anything in the Matrix, you have to spend an action analyzing its icon. And the average character is composed of like a hundred icons. So even if those analysis actions always worked (which they do not), we'd still be looking at dozens or hundreds of whois queries before any meaningful actions could be taken by anyone. Obviously, in actual practice you aren't going to be called upon to take all the actions or roll all the dice the book tells you that you have to. In fact, you aren't going to be rolling even one percent of the die rolls the book actually calls for.

You don't need to roll Matrix Perception to see the icon that isn't running silent. You can just see it, and know that it's an IC or a book or a camera. You need Matrix Perception to know details, suchs as its Device Rating and stuff.

But the matrix isn't just way too many die rolls, it's also way too many unique bullshit mechanics. Some ratings give dice pools, others set thresholds. Some give bonuses to standard matrix tasks, some allow you to do tasks that would otherwise be impossible. A starting technomancer can no-shit have access to things that set opponents' success threshold to their rating - at rating 12. That means that IC or hostile spiders have to roll twelve hits or GTFO (remember SR5 hit caps and how they are normally less than 12). On the other hand, the technomancer is also guaranteed to have actual holes in their resume, and as previously noted some of those line items simply allow you to act at all, so if those tasks come up, the technomancer literally cannot proceed.

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Clarify, please.

[TheFlatline]

Technomancers are basically in the same boat they are in in SR4. They are able to get absolutely ridiculous dice pools on specialist tasks, they are going to be actually incapable on some others, and that is somewhere between broketastically overpowered and unplayably terrible depending on how your GM handles things.

Here's the core issue: Remember how to play a Decker you just had to spend six digits of Nuyen on equipment, some of which cost 5¥ or less? Now, remember how every single item is a wireless device? Technically, before you can do anything to anything in the Matrix, you have to spend an action analyzing its icon. And the average character is composed of like a hundred icons. So even if those analysis actions always worked (which they do not), we'd still be looking at dozens or hundreds of whois queries before any meaningful actions could be taken by anyone. Obviously, in actual practice you aren't going to be called upon to take all the actions or roll all the dice the book tells you that you have to. In fact, you aren't going to be rolling even one percent of the die rolls the book actually calls for.

But which tiny fraction of the tests in the book you are actually going to need to do is completely up in the air. It's really very possible that you're basically going to be making a single hacking test to see how good your hacking is. Obviously, if everything is reduced to a single test and it's something you're incapable at, you've just lost the game; while if everything is reduced to a single test and it's something that you are beyond mundane hacking potential dice pools because you have beneficial sprite powers and they don't, then you've just won the game.

But the matrix isn't just way too many die rolls, it's also way too many unique bullshit mechanics. Some ratings give dice pools, others set thresholds. Some give bonuses to standard matrix tasks, some allow you to do tasks that would otherwise be impossible. A starting technomancer can no-shit have access to things that set opponents' success threshold to their rating - at rating 12. That means that IC or hostile spiders have to roll twelve hits or GTFO (remember SR5 hit caps and how they are normally less than 12). On the other hand, the technomancer is also guaranteed to have actual holes in their resume, and as previously noted some of those line items simply allow you to act at all, so if those tasks come up, the technomancer literally cannot proceed.

The matrix rules are unplayable as written. And the technomancer rules interact with them badly, to the point of being even less playable. But you'll see people on internet boards complaining that technomancers are overpowered or useless. And both these groups of people are right.

-Username17

Not to mention that this gargantuan can of worms gets opened so that only one party member can feel useful out of a team of 4 or 5. Yes, to an extent you need unique rules so that different roles feel like beautiful and unique snowflakes, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

The core matrix rules are broken as fuck to begin with. The proper act is to throw them out and build a new rule set that works, not build more complexity on an already overly-complex and broken rule set.

Towards that end, while I sort of like the concept of Technomancers... And actually liked Emergence from a story perspective, I don't think they should be in the core SR book.

[Longes]

Unrelated. Dear buddha, the editing on SR5 is horrendous! Noone tells you what the numbers in the Metatype column are, as written, Technomancers lose Resonance every time they lose fraction of Essence, rules for buying autosofts are missing...

[Username17]

You don't need to roll Matrix Perception to see the icon that isn't running silent. You can just see it, and know that it's an IC or a book or a camera. You need Matrix Perception to know details, suchs as its Device Rating and stuff.

This is a common misconception. You don't get to automatically know what an icon is just by looking at it. You get to know, at best, what someone has labeled it as. If it is being used by anyone even vaguely nefarious on either side, it won't have any labels on it. Finding out what "type" an icon is still requires a matrix perception action (and a net hit, using up one of your questions). Remember that Change Icon lasts forever and doesn't even require a roll - if you want to turn all your literally hundreds of icons into numbered purple spheres, you can just do that.

When you take a Matrix Perception action, each hit can reveal one piece of information you ask of your gamemaster. Here’s a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell
you.
...
[*] The type of icon (host, persona, device, file), if it is using a
non-standard (or even illegal) look.

And if they are running silent on top of that, it gets even stupider:

Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test.

The Matrix game is super fucked. Like, before anyone even declares an attack it is already essentially impossible to resolve even the simplest of matrix encounters in any reasonable amount of time. It's a perception test to note that there are hidden icons, it's one action to find each of their stupid fucking icons (and you find them in random order), and then it's another perception action to find out what each icon actually is once you've found it.

I don't see how it's even possible for a spider and a hacker to have a hack fight by the book in less than five hundred rolls. Which means naturally that you will never ever play a matrix encounter by the book. No one ever has, and it's not something that is ever going to be done. What will actually happen is that your GM will make shit up as he goes along and periodically call for a test that will probably be named the same thing as something actually written in the book. The rules in Shadowrun 5 are literally unplayable.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

What Frank is referring to is the Hall of Mirrors, where you go get a sack of matrix compatible RFID tags and before a run you turn all 1000 of them or so into non-standard icons, hide them, and then hide your actual PAN icons. So in a squad of 5 shadowrunners, you have maybe a 1 in 5000 chance of actually finding a node that is useful and not a dummy node.

The authors of SR5 replied arbitrarily that they would smite any PC who tried to do this for no other reason than "gaming the system". So an understanding of the Matrix rules is encouraged to be actively punished by the developers of SR. Because instead of identifying rules that are fucked as being a good thing because then you can Errata, for CGL it's an insult to point out bad rules.

That's fine if you're running Paranoia and Friend Computer rewards ignorance, but that version of the Hall of Mirrors isn't even particularly abusive, and there are some REAL fuckerated versions out there that illustrate how bad the rules are. Which, if you run with, CGL suggests dropping a cow out of orbit on the offending PC just to teach the player a lesson.

And as for the 500+ dice rolls, Frank isn't exaggerating much. In SR4, the Matrix had a sample "hack" where some hacker wanted some chick's phone number or something so he can creep on her. Eventually they broke the story down into mechanics. We looked at those mechanics, and it took like 70 rolls for a "simple" hack to occur, with each roll consisting of like 10 dice a piece.

[Longes]

Here's the sample SR5 matrix run for you, with spiders and stuff: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/ind ... ic=12278.0
If you could make an analysis of it - that would be rather entertaining

You get to know, at best, what someone has labeled it as. If it is being used by anyone even vaguely nefarious on either side, it won't have any labels on it

I was about to argue that only Wrapper program can meaningufly hide icons, but then...

CHANGE ICON
(Simple Action)
Marks Required: Owner
Test: none (Data Processing action)
You change the target’s icon to one that you have
a copy of or have designed yourself. Changing an icon
doesn’t change the results of a Matrix Perception action,
but might fool personas who don’t take the time to inspect
your new look. You can target your own icon, if
you like.

So, uh, I guess you are right.

What Frank is referring to is the Hall of Mirrors, where you go get a sack of matrix compatible RFID tags and before a run you turn all 1000 of them or so into non-standard icons, hide them, and then hide your actual PAN icons. So in a squad of 5 shadowrunners, you have maybe a 1 in 5000 chance of actually finding a node that is useful and not a dummy node.

The weak link here is the passage about noticing icons whos features you know not being random. Would "I'm looking for a hidden comlink" being sufficient, or not - is a mystery.

[NineInchNall]

I'd also like to see 2. the complete abandonment of this fucked up need to seem like it's based on modern computer systems, and then throw the baby out with the bathwater because you're not an IT expert and know fuck-all about modern telecommunications. Invent a system that works within the game, and design the hacking and the normal user system so that it works and makes sense. Then when the rules work, go back and put in your set dressing and technobabble.

This. Actual hacking is ... not exciting. It involves lots of trial and error, brute forcing, and things with cool-sounding names like "stack smashing" that really aren't all that cool to anyone who isn't a CS geek. (There's seriously no smashing involved.)

All the technobabble and actions in the system should be high level stuff. SQL Injection should just be a thing you do that has a chance to get you either the info you need or the clearance you need or whatever else is appropriate to database access. Stack Smashing should just be a thing you do that has a chance to modify how a target machine behaves. Add like 5 more general hacking strategies. Granularity more significant than that should go fuck itself.

[phlapjackage]

There's a discussion (argument?) about the SR5 running-silent icon thing on DS here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1266958.

People who are defending the Matrix rules and saying they're not broken are keying on a line in the rules that says: "If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below)."

[Longes]

This. Actual hacking is ... not exciting. It involves lots of trial and error, brute forcing, and things with cool-sounding names like "stack smashing" that really aren't all that cool to anyone who isn't a CS geek. (There's seriously no smashing involved.)

IRL hacking mostly hinges on developers being retarded and leaving stupid weaknesses in the system. I would give you an example from my work, but I really shouldn't

[kzt]

Most of ours result from naive users doing crazy things. Like "Why did you go to google docs and enter your AD user name and password?" Or opening a zip file that is actually a malware dropper, which delivered cryptolocker a few hours later. Oh, that was a good week....

[TheFlatline]

Here's the sample SR5 matrix run for you, with spiders and stuff: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/ind ... ic=12278.0
If you could make an analysis of it - that would be rather entertaining

You get to know, at best, what someone has labeled it as. If it is being used by anyone even vaguely nefarious on either side, it won't have any labels on it

I was about to argue that only Wrapper program can meaningufly hide icons, but then...

CHANGE ICON
(Simple Action)
Marks Required: Owner
Test: none (Data Processing action)
You change the target’s icon to one that you have
a copy of or have designed yourself. Changing an icon
doesn’t change the results of a Matrix Perception action,
but might fool personas who don’t take the time to inspect
your new look. You can target your own icon, if
you like.

So, uh, I guess you are right.

What Frank is referring to is the Hall of Mirrors, where you go get a sack of matrix compatible RFID tags and before a run you turn all 1000 of them or so into non-standard icons, hide them, and then hide your actual PAN icons. So in a squad of 5 shadowrunners, you have maybe a 1 in 5000 chance of actually finding a node that is useful and not a dummy node.

The weak link here is the passage about noticing icons whos features you know not being random. Would "I'm looking for a hidden comlink" being sufficient, or not - is a mystery.

If every icon is saying "Hi! I'm a Commlink!" how do you know which one is the real commlink?

Or fuck that. I'll go out and buy 5 cheap-ass commlinks and hide their icons. Now you search for the hidden commlink and have a 1-in-6 chance of finding the commlink that isn't a dead end. And every fake commlink you have to spend time breaking into to find out if it's real or not. Cost? If memory serves you can buy cheap-ass commlinks for like 200 nuyen. So for like 1000 nuyen you make your commlink 5 times harder to hack.

According to the SR authors, if I pulled that as a defensive tactic (and it's basically electronic chaff) the MC should either just give the hacker the proper commlink icon as punishment for trying to outsmart the authors or drop a cow from orbit onto the PC.

Either that or they say you find all hidden commlink icons at once and can then filter through them quicker than normal because fuck you we designed shit rules but can't be bothered to fix them.

Basically, the "solution" the authors give breaks the rules as written. It doesn't even create a new rule, it says "fuck you if you try to be creative".

This is why the rules are stupid, broken, and need to be fragged and started from scratch using a system that works and then technobabble to make it sound like a computer hacking minigame. The idea that I will either have the MC pull some Gygax rule breaking to spite me or drop a cow out of orbit on my character because I have the audacity to create a honey pot is absurd.

[Username17]

There's a discussion (argument?) about the SR5 running-silent icon thing on DS here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s ... &p=1266958.

People who are defending the Matrix rules and saying they're not broken are keying on a line in the rules that says: "If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below)."

The thing is: you don't know the features of an icon running silent. Ever. The limit of range for knowing where an icon is is... no range limit at all. You can specifically discover icons on the other side of the planet. So what possible information could you know that was unique to the enemy? Heck, if hackers really want to troll you, they can hackastack and make multiple copies of their persona. Even if you knew literally every single thing about them, you still wouldn't have unique knowledge about any icon. Because every single fact about their icon including ownership and location is not unique.

There's nothing to defend in the SR5 matrix rules. Yes, the rules for alerts and GOD interference are too fiddly and too complicated, but it never even gets that far because the game seriously wants you to render all ten thousand files on the server at a minimum of three die rolls each for each user who cares what files are on the server. It's insane. SR4 Matrix rules were terrible, and SR5 Matrix rules have managed to make all the problems worse. You can't even make an argument that part of the system is usable. It's turtles all the way down. Ironically, it would take a computer to even start to play this system.

Here's the sample SR5 matrix run for you, with spiders and stuff: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/ind ... ic=12278.0
If you could make an analysis of it - that would be rather entertaining

That was painful to read. OK, first of all, that was really long. Secondly, he only did two rounds and nothing actually happened. But the big deal is that not only did the author leave out a bunch of things (for example: the Patrol IC looks for a hidden icon, but there would have to be at least a dozen hidden icons and it's supposed to randomize each search), and even the things he does do required the author to make shit up (the action required of "sharing the mark" doesn't actually exist in the book and the author has to guess how it might work).

The system is literally unplayable. Needed information doesn't exist. What information is present is so fucked up that people are forced to ignore it even when they are attempting to demo the fucking rules. Shadowrun has had a lot of bad Matrix rules in the past, SR5's is literally the worst. It's really quite an achievement.

-Username17

[NineInchNall]

IRL hacking mostly hinges on developers being retarded and leaving stupid weaknesses in the system. I would give you an example from my work, but I really shouldn't

Oh, that's quite true. You wouldn't believe how hard I once had to argue to get someone to modify this

Code: Select all

if &#40;x < 1&#41; &#123; doStuff&#40;&#41;; &#125;

to this

Code: Select all

if &#40;x < 1 && x >= 0&#41; &#123; doStuff&#40;&#41;; &#125; 

X was seriously a value sent from another computer and negative inputs were baaaaaad and couldn't be handled by the system. Never mind trying to get him to make sure that x was actually a double or to put the function call in a try-catch block.

So yes, devs are stupid and lazy, and most exploits result from not handling all cases or not making sure your inputs conform to expectations.

Some things are a little harder to protect against, and there's always the complexity problem (i.e., as complexity approaches infinity, the probability of there being a bug/exploit approaches 1.)

[Longes]

My experience with SR5 is one session long, and it was fairly fun, due to GM skipping most of the hacking rules (including OS) and despite the team doing stupid-stupid things.

Well, I guess I'll go back to my futile search of SR4 online game.

[Longes]

IRL hacking mostly hinges on developers being retarded and leaving stupid weaknesses in the system. I would give you an example from my work, but I really shouldn't

Oh, that's quite true. You wouldn't believe how hard I once had to argue to get someone to modify this

Code: Select all

if &#40;x < 1&#41; &#123; doStuff&#40;&#41;; &#125;

to this

Code: Select all

if &#40;x < 1 && x >= 0&#41; &#123; doStuff&#40;&#41;; &#125; 

X was seriously a value sent from another computer and negative inputs were baaaaaad and couldn't be handled by the system. Never mind trying to get him to make sure that x was actually an int or to put the function call in a try-catch block.

So yes, devs are stupid and lazy, and most exploits result from not handling all cases or not making sure your inputs conform to expectations.

Some things are a little harder to protect against, and there's always the complexity problem (i.e., as complexity approaches infinity, the probability of there being a bug/exploit approaches 1.)

Hah. We've been making a system for Google, and for about a month after the system went online, and we started getting the money from the customers, I've found a hole that allowed to access the account with email only.

[OgreBattle]

The SR5 folks should do D&DN, and the D&DN team ought to do SR5

[Aryxbez]

The SR5 folks should do D&DN, and the D&DN team ought to do SR5

Oh god! I know both 5th editions these days are terrabad, but I'm almost thinking that the SR5 team would do a better job with D&D. In that they'd probably rip-off actual rules that somewhat worked, and just make them difficult to parse.

I'm deadly curious to how much damage Mike Mearls would do to the Shadowrun brand if he was behind it....

Also, apparently the adventures they have for Shadowrun are filled with inflated statblocks, who have Dice Pools from 12-24 for most rolls. Evidenced by my second session I played, and that my friends told me this was a regular thing they had experienced lately. Sad thing is, the stuff in the book generally don't have DP's that high, soak rolls of 9-ish being common among gangers.

[Longes]

The SR5 folks should do D&DN, and the D&DN team ought to do SR5

Oh god! I know both 5th editions these days are terrabad, but I'm almost thinking that the SR5 team would do a better job with D&D. In that they'd probably rip-off actual rules that somewhat worked, and just make them difficult to parse.

I'm deadly curious to how much damage Mike Mearls would do to the Shadowrun brand if he was behind it....

Also, apparently the adventures they have for Shadowrun are filled with inflated statblocks, who have Dice Pools from 12-24 for most rolls. Evidenced by my second session I played, and that my friends told me this was a regular thing they had experienced lately. Sad thing is, the stuff in the book generally don't have DP's that high, soak rolls of 9-ish being common among gangers.

Well, I've read parts of the "On the run" adventure, and here are the first guards you come up against:

TROLL GUARDS (2 PER DOOR)
B A R S C I L W ESS Init IP CM PR ARM
9 2 2 8 2 2 2 3 6 4 1 13 2 7/5
Skills: Automatics 2, Close Combat Group 2,
Intimidation 3, Perception 2
Gear: Armor Vest (6/4), Club, Commlink
Notes: Reach +1, Thermographic Vision, Natural
Armor +1

So they have attack rolls of 4, have Automatics (but no guns), and attack with their clubs for 5P damage. They also have 9 + 6/4 soak rolls. They are, and I'm quoting "Nabo’s people have spent a fortune on security, but they know they aren’t going to be able to cover everything. Two burly ork or troll guards—heavily but discreetly armed—are stationed at each door"
A decently built character would go through those trolls as if they were made of paper. I mean, really? 4 dice on the attack roll?

Problems I see with SR5:
1. Matrix rules are still bad.
2. Wireless bonuses don't make Matrix rules any better.
3. Technomancers are nerfed into oblivion. I don't see any way to use Puppeteer complex form, for example.
4. Mystic Adepts are Magicians+ or Adepts+, depending on how you build them. Even with the hotfixed "5 Karma per PP".
5. Spirits are still OP, and still have their bullshit Immunity.
6. Bioware + Cyberware don't give you discount on Essence.
7. 'ware seems to be not very good.
8. Essence affects your Social limit.
9. The only social modifier is Tailored Pheromones, which explicitly make you full of yourself. CYBERNETICS EAT YOUR SOUL!!!!!1ONE
10. Technomancers are nerfed into oblivion.
11. Sample Characters aren't even legal. Street Samurai has 220k more money spent than he should.
12. Drones are made of paper.
13. Priority system.
14. Priority system enforcing classes archetypes. I liked SR4's homogenization of character archetypes.
15. Editing of the goddamn book.
16. TECHNOMANCERS BEING NERFED INTO OBLIVION.

[Username17]

Basically, the "solution" the authors give breaks the rules as written. It doesn't even create a new rule, it says "fuck you if you try to be creative".

That's the big problem here. The people running the show over there are unethical douchebags, who apparently think it's OK to resort to bluster and intimidation the moment someone even mentions that the rules have a problem. And the rules have a huge problem. And they are not going to fix it, because whenever anyone talks to them about it they get all huffy and dickish.

It's not that it's trivially easy to break the game by loading up on minor bullshit items and leaving them in hidden mode. I mean, it is, and you don't even pay any real price for it because operating in stealth carries no penalties at all for devices that aren't taking matrix actions and you can buy new devices to set into stealth mode with the change in your couch. But even characters who aren't trying to do anything funny cause that system to collapse. I know that the sample characters aren't in the table of contents or in alphabetical order or anything, but they do exist. And the sample Decker has ten icons before she even turns her persona on. Some of those icons are things other people might want to hack attack, so it's not even a question of the rules technically saying something but obviously not meaning it. The rules do say that, and they mean it, and it's exactly as fucked as it looks like on first, second, and third reading. And there's no simple fucking patch.

These rules have to be killed with fire and someone has to start over with different ideas of what needs to be simulated and how to simulate things. And the people in charge aren't going to do it. They aren't even going to admit there's a problem because they think they can push through with bluster and intimidation.

-Username17

[Longes]

Btw, what's with the Missions rules banning certain pieces of the normal rules? Like Code of Honor. Why would they do something like this?

[Ancient History]

Because Missions are (or were, I haven't been keeping up) run by Bull, and Bull has very specific ideas of what Shadowrun is, which gelled somewhere back in 2nd edition. Ostensibly, the restrictions on Missions are there so that any player can bring an "acceptable" character and sit down at the table and play without breaking the adventure/causing undo headaches for the gamemaster. But really, it's Bull not wanting players to come in with possession magicians or sasquatches or gunsel karcists, 'cause that's not his style of play.

[Username17]

Yeah. You'd think the purpose of the missions would be to help sell books and thus the missions would encourage you to use expansion material that you had to pay money for. Or maybe you'd think that that the purpose would be to create adventures geared towards new players and that there would be firm limits on power level to keep things within the range new players can handle. Possibly you might think that they'd try to strike a balance, incentivizing players to buy new material while still having power ceilings to keep the new players in the game.

And you'd be wrong. The Missions banned list is just there to force everyone to conform to the prejudices of a guy who doesn't really like the direction that science fiction in general or Shadowrun in particular has gone since 1994. It really is exactly as if the RPGA didn't let people play Dwarven Wizards because they let Shadzar be in charge of things and he aesthetically didn't like the opening of race/class combinations that happened in the 21st century.

-Username17

[RadiantPhoenix]

IRL hacking mostly hinges on developers being retarded and leaving stupid weaknesses in the system. I would give you an example from my work, but I really shouldn't

I've heard that the PEBKAC error is almost unavoidable.