VaeVictis, a Dom3 MP

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:57 pm

I am available for subbing in a fortnight. I barely have the time free for a tabletop game at the moment. Not helpful considering the present situation, but if noone steps up and Pangaea is still around in 5 turns, I'll take over.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:18 pm

Saying that someone is making bad decisions and therefore has a less than medium chance of victory is disingenuous. Jotunheim is very similar in overall power to Pangaea, and victory in battle between them is going to be largely dependent upon who scripts better. That's what a medium chance of victory is.

When Marignon went to war with Caelum, Caelum had more provinces, more research, more armies, and more mages. Marignon had a higher income. Now as it happens, Marignon won that war, but it was not because Marignon had a better than medium chance of winning the war, it was because Marignon was better scripted.

If you have a roughly even starting position as your opponent, you have a medium chance of victory. If you blow it, that's on you. But it doesn't mean that you didn't "really" have a medium chance - it means you had a medium chance and you blew it.

-Username17

tenuki · Post by **tenuki** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:51 pm

You're right, point conceded.

I'm going to do one more turn for Pan before getting out of the game. I'll also give my successor a synopsis of recent events and the overall strategic direction, if desired.

My intention is not to spoil anybody's fun here; I just don't feel like investing more time in a game where the philosophy of a significant portion of the players appears to be quite at odds with my own attitude toward strategy games.

Shiritai · Post by **Shiritai** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:58 am

Yikes, major drama while I was gone.

Tenuki wrote:Sorry to the rest of you; it was a lot of fun while it lasted and I think I held my own, but I can't justify spending so much time on a game where people don't even agree on the objective. I know to ask next time.

Bonus explainer: There is even a technical term for what Marignon and Jotunheim are doing. It's called collusion, and it's banned in any competitive MP gaming environment that takes itself seriously.

I honestly don't understand what your problem is. There are Dom3 games than ban diplomacy, but this is a game with diplomacy. You were perfectly fine with an alliance against Abysia, so why is it a problem when two powers are allied against you?

Unless, is this about you thinking my alliance with Marignon is suboptimal, and so it's equivalent to throwing the game? This game isn't like chess, where good moves are relatively easy to define. There's way too many interactions and emergent properties to know for sure the best course of action, and not only that, not everyone is willing to "win at all costs." I don't feel like coldly weighing the costs of keeping my treaties vs breaking them, and if following Machiavelli's lead was a requirement for joining this game I would've passed.

And finally, there's no fairness in Dom3 and precious little balance. A single game isn't competitive in a traditional sense; simple things like geography can make or break your chances of victory (like in K's case. He wasn't kidding about lacking gems; fully searched his provinces only gave 15 or so, counting the capital!) So don't get too obsessed over the competitive angle. It's a hugely strategic game, yeah, but it's not something that could ever become a sport.

Edit: Ah, missed this.

Tenuki wrote:
Shiritai wrote:Edit: Curious... It looks like taking a province in the magic battle phase can prevent movement through that province.

Dunno about that, but I'd be interested in the answer.

My troops that had retreated were all ordered to move back to the fort, but your Ghost Riders took the province in between and only my flying guy actually ended up moving. So it sure seems that their movement was blocked.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:43 am

God, are you that fucking dumb?

The problem isn't that you allied with someone to attack Pangea.

The problem is that you allied with Marignon to attack Pangea.

Again, Marignon has 14 fucking VP. Five more, and he wins.

There is absolutely no guarantee that you will get Pangea's VP provinces ahead of Marignon.

And even if Marignon promised you that he will leave all Pangean VP provinces to you, then you are a doubly stupid fucking moron. Because that only means Marignon will launch an invasion against R'yleh (which they are already doing), who still has the requisite 5 VP.

So even if you manage to conquer Pangea and gain 8 VP (total of 11), Marignon wins once he gets 19 by beating R'yleh.

If Marignon didn't have such a massive VP lead, then yes attacking Pangea can be considered tactically sound. But that's not the case. Hell, they're so close to winning that a mass-teleport assault on Man, C'Tis, or the still neutral province of Ermor could suddenly win him the game without needing to finish off R'yleh or Pangea.

Yes, you are under no obligation to play "fairly". You can hide behind "but the game is imba anyway!" to hide behind the fact that you're a gigantic tool.

But likewise, we are under no obligation to play with such a fucking moron who is throwing the game and doesn't even realize it.

Fuck it. I quit too. The game's final result is academic with such a fucking tool playing the game, and I will not waste any more time with this bullshit.

C'Tis recognizes Marignon, and Marignon alone, as the winner of this game. They played most competently and are the world's undisputed superpower.

We will recognize no one else. No "second placers", no "co-winners", no fucking bullshit. Unless this game somehow turns on its head and lasts another hundred turns with Abysia pulling the most epic come-from behind victory ever.

tenuki · Post by **tenuki** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:47 am

@shiritai:
Let me put it like this (and yes, Frank, I'm expecting you to disagree):

You apparently don't care much about winning the game, otherwise your primary goal at this point would be to stop Marignon from doing so in a few turns. [EDIT: Or at least you wouldn't interfere with those who are willing to do the dirty work.] I and some others do care about winning, most notably Frank, and he's got you in his pocket. There is precious little the rest of us can do in this situation except try to persuade you not to throw the game.

My arguments don't work on you because you don't care for my premises. As I said (and you just confirmed), difference of attitude towards gaming.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:29 am

The ragequitting is weak. Yes, Marignon emerged as the superpower in this game. Yes, everyone is to blame, through action or inaction. Yes, no human player is perfect, and we have all made mistakes...but hey, it's our mistake to make.

Jotunheim has as much right to declare war on any player in the game they choose, whether or not that is the "smart" play. Hell, declaring war is a polite gesture - there are no diplomacy rules in this game, only the social niceties that we choose to observe. And this is a social game, where we interact with each other, make and break promises, played for fun. For fun. If you can't handle the idea that other people do stupid shit and enjoy a game anyway, you're probably not ready for multiplayer with actual humans.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:52 pm

I bet he rage quits Settlers when someone trades sheep for wood to the guy with 7 victory points too.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:14 pm

Is there no Dom3 game, which gets finished on this forum?

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:34 pm

Kaelik wrote:I bet he rage quits Settlers when someone trades sheep for wood to the guy with 7 victory points too.

Its not as if Frank didn't exactly the same (ie ragequit) in an other game...

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:41 pm

Hey, Kaelik, again: Until you're actually in the game, shut the fuck up.

Also, again, you are a fucking moron about boardgames. If someone has 7Vp in Catan, and they're contesting for longest road/biggest army, and they've got a couple of extra development cards, hell yeah you should embargo Mr. 7 VP unless you're gonna get 10 VP by making the trade.

They embargo me all the time too. Because that's the smart play.

But no, we don't have smart play here. We just have Jotunheim throwing the game, Kaelik cheering him on because he wants to kiss Frank's ass, and Ancient History making some shitty appeal to "But this is for fun!"

Well it hasn't been fun for me from day one. I'm through subbing for people and then getting blamed for the previous owner's mistakes. Fuck you all.

There is zero incentive for me to keep playing as C'Tis since all we can really do is to sit and watch this trainwreck. I've already accomplished my personal goal of being a porcupine; and the justification of "practicing how to play well" is a joke. Single player is faster, and one-on-one PBEM is a superior way to compare scripting skills with another player. All the multiplayer trains you in is diplo.

And again, this game is over anyway. Marignon wins because the only way they can be contained is gone. Stop pretending otherwise, and stop wasting everyone's time.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:53 pm

If you guys wish to concede with me in first and Jotunheim in second, that's fine. Of course: by doing that you proved Jotunheim's decision correct, since it was entirely possible that they would have come in 3rd or 4th had the game dragged on to conclusion.

-Username17

tenuki · Post by **tenuki** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:40 pm

That would only be an option if there were such a thing as a second place in this game. However, the game only defines the position of the Pantokrator. If the new Pantokrator wants to keep a pet dog, that's entirely her decision and has nothing to do with the game.

Nice try, though.

(I just hope nobody throws a fit of rage at this rather transparent attempt to push people's buttons.)

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:01 pm

Fuck it. Start mailing me the turns for pangaea or c'tis. I can at least put in a half-arsed effort until I finish my papers.

I'll try and make people earn their victory. All diplomatic arrangements will cease, though I may be open to new agreements. Consider this a declaration of war on everyone.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:29 pm

Winnah wrote:Fuck it. Start mailing me the turns for pangaea or c'tis. I can at least put in a half-arsed effort until I finish my papers.

I'll try and make people earn their victory. All diplomatic arrangements will cease, though I may be open to new agreements. Consider this a declaration of war on everyone.

PM me your email.

tenuki · Post by **tenuki** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:27 pm

Winnah, who are you taking over for, C'tis or me? If it's me, I've already sent a turn that I put 2 hours or so of work into, which you may or may not want to keep. I can send you the 2h file for approval or modification.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:42 pm

Pangaea I guess. I have no preference. I just want the opportunity to test out a few strategies against a new group of players.

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:43 pm

tenuki wrote:Winnah, who are you taking over for, C'tis or me? If it's me, I've already sent a turn that I put 2 hours or so of work into, which you may or may not want to keep. I can send you the 2h file for approval or modification.

He said he preferred Pangaea, so that's the one I gave him.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:50 pm

I'm more familliar with Pangaea, plus it is in a better position than Switzerland...For the moment. It should be interesting to see if I can keep the nation running longer than Ermor.

Shiritai · Post by **Shiritai** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:34 am

Huh. I've sent in my turn a few times now and gotten confirmation emails from llamaserver, but it still says that it's waiting for my turn. I guess I'll see how it turns out.

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:02 am

C'Tis concedes only to Marignon and calls "bullshit" on this "second place" business.

And with Jotunheim throwing the game, you are all wasting your time.

But if you really want to continue with this forgone conclusion, suggest you just set C'Tis to AI, as it's been porcupined enough to resist any lightning land grab; even with no scripting, taking down the forts will still take gems or some extra turns.

BTW, thank you for confirming that bullshit goalpost changing did happen and we know who to never trust again. Honor my ass.

tenuki · Post by **tenuki** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 8:01 am

The management of Pangaea has been successfully transferred into the hands of Winnah; may he live up to his name.

Please direct all future abuse, requests for ass-kicking and offers of surrender to him.

Have fun, all.

K · Post by K » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:26 pm

I wonder if a lower VP victory condition would have circumvented the inevitable acrimony that late-game Dominions always seems to provoke?

Zinegata · Post by **Zinegata** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:50 am

Possibly.

A large part of late-game acrimony comes from having to work for 50+ turns, and then getting pissed off at other players doing something to ruin all of that - especially if that "something" doesn't actually win the game for those other players.

With lower VP conditions, Marignon would have simply won outright very many turns ago before any of this drama. So people would have invested less time and effort before a king is finally crowned.

That being said, it has to be pointed out that part of the problem is also often the map. Uneven VP distribution was a direct cause of the drama in the Revenge of the Den game; because while the Western powers (Abysia and Marignon) had much superior economies despite having to deal with LA Ermor, they only had 3 VPs on their side of the map. The Eastern Powers (Agartha and Man) had 6, and were close to several VPs near the center of the map.

If the VP distribution was more even, Abysia and Marignon would have probably swept that game without resorting to the diplomatic moves that resulted in the drama (and you wouldn't have been screwed over on Turn 1 sitting right beside R'yleh)

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:03 am

Zinegata wrote:A large part of late-game acrimony comes from having to work for 50+ turns, and then getting pissed off at other players doing something to ruin all of that - especially if that "something" doesn't actually win the game for those other players.

You mean like declaring neutrality and making NAPs with all the major players when the end game wars had already begun?

-Username17