How do we get rid of the Fighter

[virgil]

Am I the only one noticing that he seems to reject every possible variation of a proposed solution that doesn't fit his ego? You can't have someone with super powers and call them a fighter, because it's not D&D (?!). You can't offer a fighter abilities that let him partake in adventures, because then he'll burn your family and salt the earth. You can't even just ignore the butt-hurt and stop including the fighter as an option, because he'll apparently rape that dead horse like Ahab on meth. It's obvious that he's essentially devolved into a useless troll.

There is no source material that gives you level 11+ Fighters full stop. You can not square this circle and make mundane sword guy a valid high level option. It. Can. Not. Be. Done.

This looks like a job for...

[Wiseman]

So what you're saying is that everyone on the Den as a limited lifespan before they're hopelessly insane/irrelevant?

[Avoraciopoctules]

There is no source material that gives you level 11+ Fighters full stop. You can not square this circle and make mundane sword guy a valid high level option. It. Can. Not. Be. Done.

http://www.gog.com/gamecard/icewind_dale_2
http://www.gog.com/gamecard/neverwinter ... nd_edition
http://www.gog.com/gamecard/neverwinter ... 2_complete

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box

[Wrathzog]

Devil's Advocate: Sarevok was a demi-god and a lot of his power came from being a bhaalspawn. That's still sort of true in BG2.

[Maxus]

I still haven't seen anyone answer why D&D fighters can't do this or this.

And there's a crazy side note. D&D Fighters probably have a bigger thing on leadership/diplomacy because normal people identify with them more closely than they do wizards, clerics, or skillmonkeys. Huh.

[OgreBattle]

There is no source material that gives you level 11+ Fighters full stop. You can not square this circle and make mundane sword guy a valid high level option. It. Can. Not. Be. Done.

The AD&D Fighter:
(read Right to Left)








High resilience and reliance on magical tools.

[Maxus]

Okay, that made me laugh.

[infected slut princess]

It worked as the solution for 3rd edition, it works as temporary solution for something that already exists. However, going forward, in regards to fixing them for the future of a new Fantasy RPG, going to want to attach power source for fiat & player agency. You can have multiple of them, doesn't have to "sound" spellcaster-y, but you indeed want to have one, even if it's just "Wuxia". Otherwise, I'd imagine there wouldn't be any issue with the way [Tome] Soldier has Ex-based superpowers for being that awesome (I'm fine with that, but still brings up the concern in the link).

I don't really get it. I'm not a Fighter advocate, I want crazy power sources for crazy fantasy games. I want Mystic Knights and DBZ Warriors, not Fighters.

But it's not clear to me the case being made against the Fighting Man is totally decisive. Why? Because even if your "superpower flavor" is mundane or magic, you still need to write specific abilities with specific rules. The rules for an ability define what it does. The flavor of the ability does not do that.

[Whatever]

The rules for an ability define what it does. The flavor of the ability does not do that.

Frank already addressed that. The "flavor" of an ability is crucial to understanding what it actually does (otherwise the ability only ever does "push 2 squares").

[infected slut princess]

I don't think that argument is particularly convincing. What he seems to be saying is that if the rules don't say they can do something, and the MC has to improvise, he will be more accommodating to the "magic" power than the "mundane" power. Well... so what?

(I don't even think that's a given anyway -- after all, the 4e DM won't let you use the darkfire to destroy the door.)

The unspoken assumption seems to be that the rules of the Line Ray/Beam versus the Line Cut/Stab don't specifically say anything explicitly or implicitly on the issue of using them against rock to make tunnels.

Maybe they dont. But what if they do?

If the rules of the eldritch bolt or disintegrate ray say it can blast a hole through the rock, then it blasts a hole through the rock. If it can't do that, then it can't do that. Anything else is MTP.

Same thing for a mundane "hit stuff in a line with your sword" power that some dumbass Fighter might have. If the rules of that power interact with the environment in such a way that it can be used to bore a hole through the rock, then whoa, you can do it. If not, then you can't. Anything else is MTP.

In a game with bad physics, badly written "magic powers" are better than badly written "mundane powers" because some MCs (most, even) will give you more MTP opportunities to do stuff with the magic powers. So what? Is that it? Am I missing something?

[Starmaker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box

So your idea of a level 25 challenge is "drive some demihuman bandits out of a village"?

[tussock]

At level 25 you were playing Pools of Darkness, and pissing about on a great many alternate planes, like the corpse of Moander (fighting his bits), and reloading until you won initiative and got to move in the big fights. 25d6 Fireball, eh, 1st edition style.

Plus, the Fighters had all dual-classed into Wizard a very long time ago, and were Ftr 13 - MU 22 or something instead. Usually a high level Paladin in there though, IIRC, not that I can remember why.

[icyshadowlord]

What exactly are people arguing here again?

Edit: I'm going to try and see every perspective here, even at the risk of becoming dumber as a result.
Mistborn kind of has a point, if only in the context of a 3.5e Fighter trying to be useful in a setting at level 11 and above.

Second edit: Remind me not to try and post here when tired as hell. Also, I find it hard to hate someone with a Touhou-related avatar...

[zugschef]

it seems to me that people deliberatly take stupid positions just to oppose mistborn's stance.

[Xaos]

What has to be recognized is that the fighter is an incomplete concept. By contrast, the paladin is a pretty strong concept, a crusading knight of justice and chivalry with all the trappings of the Knights of the Round Table and the Twelve Peers. Paladin is the class you take if you want to play Sir Lancelot or Roland or King Arthur himself, or just your generic knight in shining armor. It is not clear what mythical characters embody the concept of "fighter". Which is fine, if you admit that the fighter is not a full class like the paladin, ranger, or berserker (the "barbarian" class can die in a fire) but a kit to create characters that don't fall into one of the other categories (maybe you don't have a samurai class, luckily the fighter is there). Which is kind of what the 3e fighter does, but feats are so meaningless in terms of actual concept while simultaneously providing sufficient bonuses to such narrow circumstances that you end up with "the character who is really good at swinging a sword" or "the character that is really good at tripping" or even "the character that is really good at charging, specifically with one weapon and only when riding a Pegasus". Which, even if they worked mechanically, aren't character concepts on the same level as "a knight errant who sallies forth to right all wrongs" or "legendary warrior who channels primal spirits to destroy his foes" or even "guy who is friends with animals".

The only comparable (not homebrewed) D&D class I know of is the sorcerer. Depending on spell selection you can make a wide variety of different spellcasters out of the one class. They don't get the respect they deserve because wizards and codzilla basically encompass every possible sorcerer but in one class, though I'd say it was the prepared spellcasters that were designed poorly. I suppose the martial adepts were the closest that WotC came to this idea, but there are too few (really different) options with too many traps for it to work like I've described.

TL, DR: Sorcerers are simpler to use but Prepartion is part of what made the earlier version of D&D, D&D. Same goes for Fighters. But Fighters have gotten weaker because instead of working on making fighters awesome, we've been making too many Sword Dudes who do the things that made fighters unique back in the old days PLUS given them some kind of superpower related to their archetype and this makes solutions difficult.

Long version: Well...the "Prepared" Spellcasters were following the old rules. The rules all the way back to OD&D had casters capable of learning all the spells, but only "arming" a select few per day. (Although in whitebox, Clerics didn't automatically learn all of their spells when they leveled, so they actually became WORST and started other problems) I personally prefer Sorcs for their simplicity and the fact they are probably easier to balance, but they become less "D&D". Mostly because they were replacing the old system with one that was simpler for people to wrap their head around.

Of course, hundreds of CRPGs and console games had "Spontaneous" casting for years before 3.x Sorcerers finally came along. They also tended to treat armor as an improvement to DR instead of evasion, and one might argue that that was superior design. (Hell, Do you even KNOW how much of a boon it would be to the game if heavy armor simply had a PENALTY to dexterity instead this "maximum dex bonus bullshit? In fourth, heavy simply nullifies that bonus outright.) I've even seen systems (Mostly "Grim and Gritty ones) that try to apply this to 3e.

But..."Armor Class" and "Vancian Magic" are sort of Iconic. Taking them out of D&D is like removing the Transporters from Star Trek. Same damn thing with trying to remove "Fighting men". Which brings us full circle back around to the topic.

Going back to OD&D once again, the three classes were Fighters, Mages, and Clerics. In their oldest form, Fighters' "Schtick" was being the only guys who could use all the weapons without restriction. (Including any form of legal ranged weapon that existed at the time and such popular entries as the Spear, the Axe, and -that Mary Sue of outdated weaponry- the Sword) Fighters could use any magic weapon they found (specialization wasn't even a thing) and they had the best Attack bonus. Mages did their damage with spells, limited to daggers or the occasional magic staff which didn't technically "count" as a weapon. Clerics had better gear selection than Mages, but had awful attack and generally sucked at doing damage in general. (The thief didn't exist yet. Everyone could search for traps because the traps were just...there. You told the GM you were searching extra carefully or were prodding shit with a ten-foot pole.)

In its oldest form, the Fighter class had a complete monopoly on fighting with medieval weapons in this supposedly medieval fantasy setting. Any Muggle of any sort who wasn't a non-combatant was a fucking Fighting-Man/Woman. The thing that made Robin Hood or Conan or anyone else special was the fact that they had more experience levels that ONE.

But that monopoly just couldn't last. The reason why "Fighters" seem like such a bland and "Theme-less" class nowadays is because EVERY SINGLE CLASS WITH A FULL BAB AND HEAVY ARMOR *IS* A FIGHTER, PLUS SOME KIND OF MAGIC OR SUPERPOWER.

Fighters are simply the "Insert warrior culture here" class. Multiclass the right Power source (Divine, Arcane, Primal, Shadow, Psychic, Diabolic, Necrotic, whatever) with a "Fighter" and you can create every single "Swordsman" class ever.

Knights? Barbarians? Samurai? All Fighters, every one.
Duelists and a fuckton other PrC? Ditto.
Paladin? Fighter-Cleric.
Ranger? Fighter-Druid.
Psionic Warrior/4e Battlemind or Ardent? Fighter-Psion.
Berserker? He's basically a better Barbarian. Fighter...Shaman, maybe?
Old school Elves? Ah, the origin of multi-classing. Fighter-Mages.
Bards? They are a quadraclass that wants to pretend to be a single class.
Final fantasy Red Mages? Bards with more Evocation and less Music.

Thief/Rogue? ......Well, actually, he's kind of the inverse of the Cleric: Originally limited to Edged weapons instead of being limited to blunt ones, Sneaking and Dexterity prime attribute demand Light Armor instead of heavy/medium armor and shield, play style and archetype generally more "awesome" than the Cleric's in spite of the fact they are non-magical, one lives a life of crime while the other life of forgiving others of their sins...thieves have a fucking pre-existing archetype in fiction...

So yeah, the 3e Fighter (Since Warrior-types are everywhere now) suffers because they get a big bag of feats that are basically "Here, instead of Class Abilities, pick some of this new upgrade we just made for this new edition of D&D and try to customize your own special snowflake" and it NEVER WORKS.

So, as Frank said, "Sword Dudes" can exist. I mean, the fact that "Berserker" is a class that counts, means that we have a mundane...ish fighter archetype. We could make several other classes for every other idea there is out there. Or we could file all them under a generic (and HIGHLY Multiclass-able) "Fighter" class that specializes in powers that modify weapon attacks and magic weapons to do weird Godlike things such as shatter entire mountains with war picks and all the other bullshit people have suggested for fighters over the ages which you get less of if you DO multiclass.

[nockermensch]

There is no source material that gives you level 11+ Fighters full stop. You can not square this circle and make mundane sword guy a valid high level option. It. Can. Not. Be. Done.

The AD&D Fighter:
(read Right to Left)

High resilience and reliance on magical tools.

Freeza has nothing on Ryotsu, he's hopelessly outclassed.

[Drolyt]

Mistborn kind of has a point, if only in the context of a 3.5e Fighter trying to be useful in a setting at level 11 and above.

Most of us have already agreed with Mistborn that a) fighter is a poor concept and b) sword swinging does not work in D&D right now. What is entirely unclear is the rest of his grand vision. Most of us think there is a need for characters like Conan/Roland/Beowulf/Aragorn/etc. but Mistborn doesn't like them because they don't work at high levels. Then when we propose ways for them to work at high levels it apparently doesn't fit the source material. Yet he still hasn't explained how that bothers him but spellcasters that look like they belong in Marvel Comics are fine.

[nockermensch]

Mistborn kind of has a point, if only in the context of a 3.5e Fighter trying to be useful in a setting at level 11 and above.

Most of us have already agreed with Mistborn that a) fighter is a poor concept and b) sword swinging does not work in D&D right now. What is entirely unclear is the rest of his grand vision. Most of us think there is a need for characters like Conan/Roland/Beowulf/Aragorn/etc. but Mistborn doesn't like them because they don't work at high levels. Then when we propose ways for them to work at high levels it apparently doesn't fit the source material. Yet he still hasn't explained how that bothers him but spellcasters that look like they belong in Marvel Comics are fine.

Curiously, when I presented kaelik's classes to my players (cold dudes, storm lords, etc) I got exactly a "wait, are we playing a super-heroes game now?" / "are these from that last airbender show?" reactions. This just goes to show how that while we all agree that D&D is its own genre, most of us will disagree about what that genre is.

[virgil]

Then when we propose ways for them to work at high levels it apparently doesn't fit the source material.

The fixes do fit source material, just not the ones that Roy Jr approves of.

[sabs]

Mistborn kind of has a point, if only in the context of a 3.5e Fighter trying to be useful in a setting at level 11 and above.

Most of us have already agreed with Mistborn that a) fighter is a poor concept and b) sword swinging does not work in D&D right now. What is entirely unclear is the rest of his grand vision. Most of us think there is a need for characters like Conan/Roland/Beowulf/Aragorn/etc. but Mistborn doesn't like them because they don't work at high levels. Then when we propose ways for them to work at high levels it apparently doesn't fit the source material. Yet he still hasn't explained how that bothers him but spellcasters that look like they belong in Marvel Comics are fine.

Curiously, when I presented kaelik's classes to my players (cold dudes, storm lords, etc) I got exactly a "wait, are we playing a super-heroes game now?" / "are these from that last airbender show?" reactions. This just goes to show how that while we all agree that D&D is its own genre, most of us will disagree about what that genre is.

And there are two pure fighter characters in Last Airbender.
1) Sukko who is a liability in 90% of the fights, and is helpful only in that he's forced to try and think his way out of situations, because he is otherwise worthless.
2) Ty Lee, who is super acrobatic/flexible and has the power to strike chi points and stop people from being able to bend. So she's a real threat, because she has effectively the 'foil' ability from Tome Fighter.

Everyone else is some kind of bender, or doesn't rate.

[Kaelik]

Curiously, when I presented kaelik's classes to my players (cold dudes, storm lords, etc) I got exactly a "wait, are we playing a super-heroes game now?" / "are these from that last airbender show?" reactions. This just goes to show how that while we all agree that D&D is its own genre, most of us will disagree about what that genre is.

Huh what? The idea of a Storm Mage who shoots lightning made think they had to be playing a supers game instead of a fantasy RPG because Storm Mages and Ice Mages are weird things that don't belong in fantasy RPGs?

WTF?

[Chamomile]

1) Sukko who is a liability in 90% of the fights, and is helpful only in that he's forced to try and think his way out of situations, because he is otherwise worthless.

You seem to have collapsed together Suki and Sokka. Suki proves capable against mook-level firebenders with regularity, but I don't think she's won a single fight with a major antagonist, so whether or not she counts depends on how you're defining "worthless."

[sabs]

1) Sukko who is a liability in 90% of the fights, and is helpful only in that he's forced to try and think his way out of situations, because he is otherwise worthless.

You seem to have collapsed together Suki and Sokka. Suki proves capable against mook-level firebenders with regularity, but I don't think she's won a single fight with a major antagonist, so whether or not she counts depends on how you're defining "worthless."

I ment Sokka. Suki... is a total bad-ass, who can hold her own against unnamed firebenders, but basically loses to anyone with a name, even if they are minor characters. She does better against Ty Lee.

Sokka has a personal growth sidequest where he becomes Master Swordsman. And that still means he's worthless against anything not a mook.

And, high level airbenders, are less powerful than 15+ level wizards and sorcerors.

[nockermensch]

Curiously, when I presented kaelik's classes to my players (cold dudes, storm lords, etc) I got exactly a "wait, are we playing a super-heroes game now?" / "are these from that last airbender show?" reactions. This just goes to show how that while we all agree that D&D is its own genre, most of us will disagree about what that genre is.

Huh what? The idea of a Storm Mage who shoots lightning made think they had to be playing a supers game instead of a fantasy RPG because Storm Mages and Ice Mages are weird things that don't belong in fantasy RPGs?

WTF?

I think it's the always on nature of their powers that make people think on super-heroes. At least that was my initial assessment. Later I got the idea that people can dislike some classes for flavor reasons only. Whatever the D&D genre is, people seem to agree that it contains valorous knights, mysterious wizards in their towers, wily thieves in guilds and pious clerics in their churches, and so on. How do storm lords fit into this picture? Maybe I had approached the players with fluff that integrated them in the world, they'd call the class awesome.

So maybe it's about the same problem people have with psionics.

---

Sokka is quite clearly a heart-bender, guys. Suki is one of Sokka's class features.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Devil's Advocate: Sarevok was a demi-god and a lot of his power came from being a bhaalspawn. That's still sort of true in BG2.

And in Throne of Bhaal, he loses his bhaalspawn powers when he gets revived as a player character. He had a few other tricks, but those probably came from his fighter kit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box

So your idea of a level 25 challenge is "drive some demihuman bandits out of a village"?

More "fight your way through Lolth's Abyss, filled with dozens of types of magical giant spiders." And fighters were pretty awesome there.

Alternatively:

From Zhentil Keep, travel to the Black City of Mulmaster in the southeast corner of the map. You must defeat the monsters in the arena to gain
passage to Arcam. The first wave is two black dragons; the second is Purple worms and displacer beasts, and the third wave (which attacks maybe one time in ten) consists of salamanders and pyro snakes.

A beholder will come up to you. It says that you have earned an interview with Arcam. Will you go? Agree and follow the beast out of the arena and into the tunnels below. You need to proceed south, through Arcam's Hall of Victory (1). In the next chamber is the chancellor of Arcam. If you come to the chancellor before this point in the game, he will assign you a task (eliminating other allies, like Marcus, Manshoon or whomever, offer to pay you for it, and have margoyles escort you out exit A). At this point, he decides that you are becoming too dangerous and orders the legions inside the chamber against you.

Defeat the chancellor and the many margoyles and you will see Arcam drift out of view to the south. Follow him south and west, looping back around to the east where you are confronted by a red mage saying that Arcam wishes to parley. He offers a bag of gems in return. If you attack him, he utters a command word and fire elementals jump out. After defeating them and continuing east you will run into a dungeon (3) off to the north. Rescue the prisoner in the northeast corner, then go down to level 2 (B).

Upon arrival in level 2, you discover that you are on the outskirts of the Hall of the Dead. If you step into the hall, you are attacked by undead (obviously). You can either use exit C or D to go down to level 3, however if you go directly south to exit C you will be ambushed by more undead. Looping around to the west and doubling back is much more effective.

When you arrive on level 3, go down the hallway. You will notice a door on the south wall, which leads into the Labyrinth. Think back to the chant that the Banites were using, if you happened to run into them. In any event, you'll have to wander around until you find the exit, or you can simply follow these directions. From just inside the entrance (4), take one step to the east. Turn south, take three steps, then turn around without moving. This is the exit, which will take you to the room immediately to the east (5).

Go north from here into the next room where some of Arcam's allies are trying to set up and ambush. They won't be prepared for you however, and as you engage them in battle Arcam floats off north. Follow him north into a large square room (6). This is Arcam's chamber, which contains organized resistance. After defeating the group of monsters guarding the door, you will be informed that the room is full of odd ornaments and stalactites, which are good hiding places for defenders (or, in other words, if you move too much you get attacked).

Proceed to the northwest corner of the room where Arcam finally faces you. Arcam, who turns out to be a beholder is accompanied by another of his kind. Don't bother with magic; you have to go right to the jugular because both of the monsters are magic resistant. The ladder to the next level is immediately to the west (F), but if you go to the southwest corner of Arcam's chamber and go west through the arches to the southwest corner, you will discover the treasure trove of Arcam (7).

When you reach level 4, you will enter a room to the east with a lone, stone sentinel inside it, in the shape of a dragon (8). When you try to walk past
it, it senses the Horn of Doom, and calls its dragon allies from the north, who swoop down on you and attack. Once they're defeated, you can rest
in the room to the north. Proceed east to the next room (9), which contains a huge statue, this time of a spider with a thousand eyes looking down upon you.

You guessed it, when you try to walk by, the spider senses the Crystal Ring and calls spiders from the room in the north to attack you. Once you
defeat them go to the east into the next room (10). Inside this room, the party will notice a giant black hand jutting from the far wall. The hand is
in the shape of a clenched fist. When you approach it, it senses Bane's Talisman, the fingers spread out revealing a portal, from which Bits o Moander
and walking trees attack you from.

Once you defeat them, go through the portal inside the hand and teleport to Elminster's camp in Limbo. He congratulates you on getting this far, then says that he's going to send you into Bane's Land.