Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:21 pm
Does anyone know a (3rd party) feat, that let's a cleric use channel energy based off of wisdom?
Maybe he just like big boats, and he cannot lie.Rawbeard wrote:Fixed.For starters, Bioware had actual game designers
The adventure path has limited word count, so every word devoted to background details that the PCs will not interact with is a word not used to provide more GM advice, suggested alternate paths, tactical advice for running encounters, or ideas on how to tailor the adventure to a specific group.MGuy wrote:dogbert... are you complaining that there are background elements at all that players may not interact with? If so, why? Why the hell would you care if there are elements players 'may' or may not be curious enough to find. If not, what exactly is your problem with it?Dogbert wrote: Paizo APs, on the other hand, are written by self-indulgent hacks who scrabble a story that, regardless of quality, serves no purpose other than giving MC something to fap about because players never interact with it. I vastly prefer a canned adventure that only has a dungeon, critters, and no other motivation than "there's treasure inside" because at least that's more honest and players don't get shoved the idiot ball up their assess with cheap railroading and lazy scenario design while MC faps and thinks "oh I'm so clever."
Shouldn't you know how to make your party like or hate someone better than the author? I get what you are saying, but it seems unreasonable to ask for pages dedicated on how to keep murder hobo parties from killing key NPCs that will be applicable to only a small segment of the player base. Also most of the "your party will like this NPC because he saved a squirrel" or "give him a funny voice," is both niche and stupid.mlangsdorf wrote: So if there's a column and a half devoted to the background and life story of the NPC opponent that the PCs will murder in 3 rounds, I get angry and frustrated with Paizo for not condensing that to a paragraph and using the rest of the space to give me more advice on how to make sure that the PCs like the NPCs that they're supposed to like.
That is an odd thing to get angry about. You simply can't know whether or not players will kill named NPC number 4 and you can't know whether or not they will go along whatever Railroad the adventure tries to set up. I can't get mad at them for spending time fleshing out a character the players might or might not kill. It is not as though they write the stuff in and then NOT write what you need to run the encounter into their APs. If they did that, I could understand that kind of view but since they give you all that + extra I find it confusing to get mad at them adding extra.mlangsdorf wrote:The adventure path has limited word count, so every word devoted to background details that the PCs will not interact with is a word not used to provide more GM advice, suggested alternate paths, tactical advice for running encounters, or ideas on how to tailor the adventure to a specific group.MGuy wrote:dogbert... are you complaining that there are background elements at all that players may not interact with? If so, why? Why the hell would you care if there are elements players 'may' or may not be curious enough to find. If not, what exactly is your problem with it?Dogbert wrote: Paizo APs, on the other hand, are written by self-indulgent hacks who scrabble a story that, regardless of quality, serves no purpose other than giving MC something to fap about because players never interact with it. I vastly prefer a canned adventure that only has a dungeon, critters, and no other motivation than "there's treasure inside" because at least that's more honest and players don't get shoved the idiot ball up their assess with cheap railroading and lazy scenario design while MC faps and thinks "oh I'm so clever."
So if there's a column and a half devoted to the background and life story of the NPC opponent that the PCs will murder in 3 rounds, I get angry and frustrated with Paizo for not condensing that to a paragraph and using the rest of the space to give me more advice on how to make sure that the PCs like the NPCs that they're supposed to like.
The entire 6th book of Kingmaker comes out of nowhere.Amalie Gaston wrote:Pathfinder adventure paths have a terrible habit of making the plot details that tie the campaign together visible only to the DM. Kingmaker is a blatant example of this. From the DM's perspective, the end of the second book is an agent of the BBEG harassing the party while the BBEG stays out of sight, building her power. From the player's perspective, it's an owlbear out of nowhere that has no connection to anything prior or after.
Ideally, the adventure should have been playtested by multiple groups after the first draft was completed, and feedback from those playtests encorporated in the final draft. I'd rather have suggestions based on experience that you shouldn't be too overbearing with NPC A or that you really have to play up NPC B's kindness and admiration of the PCs because otherwise some of the stuff she does for plot reasons becomes really annoying than the in depth history of NPC C's interactions with NPCs D and E in a city that the PCs won't visit for another 3 installments of the adventure path.MGuy wrote:That is an odd thing to get angry about. You simply can't know whether or not players will kill named NPC number 4 and you can't know whether or not they will go along whatever Railroad the adventure tries to set up. I can't get mad at them for spending time fleshing out a character the players might or might not kill. It is not as though they write the stuff in and then NOT write what you need to run the encounter into their APs. If they did that, I could understand that kind of view but since they give you all that + extra I find it confusing to get mad at them adding extra.mlangsdorf wrote: The adventure path has limited word count, so every word devoted to background details that the PCs will not interact with is a word not used to provide more GM advice, suggested alternate paths, tactical advice for running encounters, or ideas on how to tailor the adventure to a specific group.
So if there's a column and a half devoted to the background and life story of the NPC opponent that the PCs will murder in 3 rounds, I get angry and frustrated with Paizo for not condensing that to a paragraph and using the rest of the space to give me more advice on how to make sure that the PCs like the NPCs that they're supposed to like.
I'm of the opinion that these people should just read actual novels. As a GM I'm fine with getting lots of background information in an AP, but it should designed to be used. At the very least, there should a knowledge check to find out what's going on. When something happens the PCs need to know the reason, or they might as well be playing through a random encounter table.Antariuk wrote:The fact that Paizo print lots of stuff into their adventures that nobody will ever experience or find out about in a real game is not really surprising since there are lots of people who read materials as you would a novel, without even the intent of using it at a table or anything. Paizo has even officially acknowlegded this to be a fact, so in a way they're just catering their customers.
I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the most recent APs, so it is possible that things have changed. From the beginning, there was very little that was not useful - the closest I think that would match was when a 'red herring' was presented... Information about what the PCs might investigate but was ultimately unconnected to the larger plot. But then again, if it isn't a railroad, that information actually matters.LeadPal wrote:I'm of the opinion that these people should just read actual novels. As a GM I'm fine with getting lots of background information in an AP, but it should designed to be used. At the very least, there should a knowledge check to find out what's going on. When something happens the PCs need to know the reason, or they might as well be playing through a random encounter table.Antariuk wrote:The fact that Paizo print lots of stuff into their adventures that nobody will ever experience or find out about in a real game is not really surprising since there are lots of people who read materials as you would a novel, without even the intent of using it at a table or anything. Paizo has even officially acknowlegded this to be a fact, so in a way they're just catering their customers.
It's common for APs to have monsters with long backgrounds that the PCs have no incentive to learn, much less any way to do so. And while it's nice when you can use these backgrounds to inform the actions of these monsters, if the PCs have no way of knowing about it, the result from their perspective isn't any different from if the monsters acted randomly. Kingmaker's owlbear from nowhere (above) is a great example.deaddmwalking wrote:I have to admit that I'm not familiar with the most recent APs, so it is possible that things have changed. From the beginning, there was very little that was not useful - the closest I think that would match was when a 'red herring' was presented... Information about what the PCs might investigate but was ultimately unconnected to the larger plot. But then again, if it isn't a railroad, that information actually matters.LeadPal wrote:I'm of the opinion that these people should just read actual novels. As a GM I'm fine with getting lots of background information in an AP, but it should designed to be used. At the very least, there should a knowledge check to find out what's going on. When something happens the PCs need to know the reason, or they might as well be playing through a random encounter table.Antariuk wrote:The fact that Paizo print lots of stuff into their adventures that nobody will ever experience or find out about in a real game is not really surprising since there are lots of people who read materials as you would a novel, without even the intent of using it at a table or anything. Paizo has even officially acknowlegded this to be a fact, so in a way they're just catering their customers.
BBEG is Ahab1) The BBEG is That Guy.
Ahab plans to kill the white whale2) That Guy plans to do This Thing.
He will kill the white whale by securing a crew and changing his stated goal.3) He'll enact This Thing by means of These Other Things.
He needs to have Starbuck and the other mates run the ship and handle keep the crew in line while he ignores easy profit.4) These Other Things are to be carried out by These Other Guys.
Ishmael has almost no contact with Ahab throughout most of the book and yet his presence is felt through the actions of others and signs of his movement. Ishmael and Quequeg do not mutiny even though Ahab's plot is clear because fuck you.5) These Other Guys DO HAVE contact with the PCs, and it's totally possible for the PCs to get in on the whole BBEG's plot and throw a monkey wrench in it, but the GM is tasked with stonewalling the PCs, because fuck you.
An idiot plot for a predetermined narrative and an idiot plot that's supposed to set up a cooperative storytelling session are not the same thing. I love Ace Attorney but if someone tried to pull some of the shit they tried in those games in a game of Discourse and Dragons: Courtroom Edition, I'd punch my GM in the junk.Scrievener wrote:Your definition of an idiot plot is bad. It's okay not to like the products, but why the hate?
AndLago PARANOIA wrote: Dogbert is too vague on the details for me to agree with him that the Adventure Path is an idiot plot, but I don't agree with your counter-example.
Absolutely. These are fair criticisms. I just want to know what dogbert wants from a plot. While neither fit exactly, being different forms of media, they both have the same basic structure. I was trying to point out that Dogbert's criteria of what constitutes an idiot plot and a GM wankfest fails spectacularly when used on not TTRPG products.Maxus wrote:Moby and 5th element aren't TTRPGs
About the only part of it that's agreeable at all is probably half of the 5th one because that involves actual railroading for questionable benefit. Even then, that's only the latter half of the complaint and I can see situations where it would probably be necessary to do that if you wanted to get your money's worth out of the AP or you wanted to prevent TPK. However, the rest of your list doesn't make sense to me. If your complaint is that, at times, APs tell the GM to make sure the players don't ruin future events that, I can agree with. It hasn't been a problem for me thus far but I can understand not liking it. The rest... I can't understand your complaint at all. Can you explain how 1 through 5 is actually an insult?Dogbert wrote:I'm indifferent about toilet reading, it's when they specifically write an idiot plot where I draw the line:
1) The BBEG is That Guy.
2) That Guy plans to do This Thing.
3) He'll enact This Thing by means of These Other Things.
4) These Other Things are to be carried out by These Other Guys.
5) These Other Guys DO HAVE contact with the PCs, and it's totally possible for the PCs to get in on the whole BBEG's plot and throw a monkey wrench in it, but the GM is tasked with stonewalling the PCs, because fuck you.
This is insulting on several levels, and the reason why I spit on Paizo's GM Wank pieces Adventure Paths.