The Gaming Den

I don't know; I think there'd be a similar argument if you tried to debate just generalist Wizard vs generalist Rogue. People like to think that Wizards have the answer for absolutely everything all the time, when that's not true in practice.

You, know, a lot of people keep saying that a Wizard can prep for 'almost anything' via their vast amount of spell options.

Which is true.


However, the classes detractors almost always say "yeah, but you only get 4 + Bonus spells per day. So tough luck being prepared for almost anything."


To which, the 1st level wizard says:

"Uhm. Kindly fvck off you haters. I get Scribe scroll at 1st level; what the hell do you think I do with it? Let it go on fire?"


Which pretty much sums up why a well-prepped wiz doesn't have that much trouble dealing with problems, mostly b/c he's got a spell or... 50 in scroll format.

And, by level 11; they have every spell in a scroll at least once. Due to either Candle of Invocation chaining for Wishes from Noble Djinni or Efreeti (one Candle lets you summon one outsider; who can then give you 3 candles as your 3 wishes, then leaves; then you repeat to acheive 9 candles; then 27; then 81; 243 and 729 'wishes').

Pretty much only a wizard would know or be smart enough to do such a thing.

So, ultimately, the mage is able to outdo anything a specialist wizard could, becaseu they've got extradimensional pockets on their belts, cloak, pants and Heward's Handy Haversacks that are full of scrolls to use.

Which, keeps sounding more and more like Batman. =/

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1170099081[/unixtime]]
Which, keeps sounding more and more like Batman.

It actually sounds more like batman is a rogue with maxxed UMD and an unlimited budget for scrolls and the like.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1168968072[/unixtime]]So, he'd probably 'solve' the problem of the wizard. Probably by just sundering his spell component pouch.

No one called him on this? Geez... This just makes me sad.

You sunder the wizard's spell component pouch... he grabs another of the 50 he carries on him because he knows the DM thinks sundering spell component pouches is fun? I mean, seriously, its a *non-action* to use a spell-component pouch. "Oh noes, you sundered one, I only have another 49 *on my person*, and you only get *one attack* off a readied action, whatever shall I do? You should have hit me, stupid."

Sundering spell component pouches.... sheesh. They're 5gp each. Thats free for anyone 3rd level and above. You think people would stop arguing for such stupidity.

Who said he sundered just one?

Bats has been carrying thermite with him since.... uhm, the 70's.

Thermite cuts through tank armour and engine blocks (mostly b/c the stuff is molten iron).

Some thermite wouldn't just sunder the Wizard's spell comp pouch, it would sunder everything the wiz is wearing that is flammable, b/c you know, sunder can be used to break off a guys magical glove or buckler, but not do any hit point damage to the hand or arm that was underneath.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1170342486[/unixtime]]Who said he sundered just one?

Bats has been carrying thermite with him since.... uhm, the 70's.

Thermite cuts through tank armour and engine blocks (mostly b/c the stuff is molten iron).

Some thermite wouldn't just sunder the Wizard's spell comp pouch, it would sunder everything the wiz is wearing that is flammable, b/c you know, sunder can be used to break off a guys magical glove or buckler, but not do any hit point damage to the hand or arm that was underneath.

Um, thats not a sunder check. Please read the rules on sundering. For the first part, you can only make a Sunder check with a melee weapon, which thermite is not.

Second, you can't burn anything someone is wearing unless they fail a save, because thats how things work in D+D. Sorry, try again. Further, there's no way such an application of thermite isn't an attack on the wizard. I've *seen* thermite in action - there's no possible 'it burned through his clothing but didn't touch him'.

--Squirrelloid

clikml at [unixtime wrote:1170112873[/unixtime]]
It actually sounds more like batman is a rogue with maxxed UMD and an unlimited budget for scrolls and the like.

In actual practice it could be either one. In terms of pulling crazy special effects out of thin air, the difference between a wizard and a rogue with a sufficiently large budget is pretty small. Batman clearly has a sufficiently large budget. Either way, he's still filling the traditional role of the Wizard, whether he actually uses the wizard class or not.

I tend to think of him a little more as an actual wizard mainly because he seems to construct a fair amount of his fancy gadgetry himself -- although this really depends on what version of Batman you're dealing with. The "Batman Begins" Batman, for instance, is much more plausible as a rogue, since all his gadgetry seems to be pretty much repainted off-the-shelf gear from the depths of the weapons lab.

--d.

dbb at [unixtime wrote:1170395597[/unixtime]]

clikml at [unixtime wrote:1170112873[/unixtime]]
It actually sounds more like batman is a rogue with maxxed UMD and an unlimited budget for scrolls and the like.

I tend to think of him a little more as an actual wizard mainly because he seems to construct a fair amount of his fancy gadgetry himself -- although this really depends on what version of Batman you're dealing with. The "Batman Begins" Batman, for instance, is much more plausible as a rogue, since all his gadgetry seems to be pretty much repainted off-the-shelf gear from the depths of the weapons lab.

--d.

Are you suggesting that Batman was an 'organic' character which multiclassed from rogue into wizard???

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1170378778[/unixtime]]

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1170342486[/unixtime]]Who said he sundered just one?

Bats has been carrying thermite with him since.... uhm, the 70's.

Thermite cuts through tank armour and engine blocks (mostly b/c the stuff is molten iron).

Some thermite wouldn't just sunder the Wizard's spell comp pouch, it would sunder everything the wiz is wearing that is flammable, b/c you know, sunder can be used to break off a guys magical glove or buckler, but not do any hit point damage to the hand or arm that was underneath.

Um, thats not a sunder check. Please read the rules on sundering. For the first part, you can only make a Sunder check with a melee weapon, which thermite is not.

Second, you can't burn anything someone is wearing unless they fail a save, because thats how things work in D+D. Sorry, try again. Further, there's no way such an application of thermite isn't an attack on the wizard. I've *seen* thermite in action - there's no possible 'it burned through his clothing but didn't touch him'.

--Squirrelloid

Except for the fact that Therimite needs to be placed at a range of.... 5 or less inches to properly take out a truly hard target?

You don't usually throw Thermite charges at a tank; you have to place them so that they'll slag ideally.

As for the second part, I making fun of the fact that when say.. a raging barbarian sunders a buckler the size with his great axe that weighs a good 10-15 pounds and he can deal in excess of 40 damage per hit; the buckler breaks.

However the arm underneath it is protected by the arbitrarium that was the now broken buckler.

Same if you sunder someones glove of storing. You can 'break' the glove, but you will not deal any HP damage.

That's what I find hilarious.

Also, thermite would be excessive, but it would prolly break any gear a PC carries; unless it was actual stone, then maybe not. Stone gets melted, a bit, when it is hit with thermite; but it won't turn to slag.

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1170405975[/unixtime]]

dbb at [unixtime wrote:1170395597[/unixtime]]

clikml at [unixtime wrote:1170112873[/unixtime]]
It actually sounds more like batman is a rogue with maxxed UMD and an unlimited budget for scrolls and the like.

I tend to think of him a little more as an actual wizard mainly because he seems to construct a fair amount of his fancy gadgetry himself -- although this really depends on what version of Batman you're dealing with. The "Batman Begins" Batman, for instance, is much more plausible as a rogue, since all his gadgetry seems to be pretty much repainted off-the-shelf gear from the depths of the weapons lab.

--d.

Are you suggesting that Batman was an 'organic' character which multiclassed from rogue into wizard???

Yes, and he got psychic reformating thanks to his sensei in Japan to trade out rog lvls for wiz lvls.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1170452059[/unixtime]]

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1170378778[/unixtime]]

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1170342486[/unixtime]]Who said he sundered just one?

Bats has been carrying thermite with him since.... uhm, the 70's.

Thermite cuts through tank armour and engine blocks (mostly b/c the stuff is molten iron).

Some thermite wouldn't just sunder the Wizard's spell comp pouch, it would sunder everything the wiz is wearing that is flammable, b/c you know, sunder can be used to break off a guys magical glove or buckler, but not do any hit point damage to the hand or arm that was underneath.

Um, thats not a sunder check. Please read the rules on sundering. For the first part, you can only make a Sunder check with a melee weapon, which thermite is not.

Second, you can't burn anything someone is wearing unless they fail a save, because thats how things work in D+D. Sorry, try again. Further, there's no way such an application of thermite isn't an attack on the wizard. I've *seen* thermite in action - there's no possible 'it burned through his clothing but didn't touch him'.

--Squirrelloid

Except for the fact that Therimite needs to be placed at a range of.... 5 or less inches to properly take out a truly hard target?

You don't usually throw Thermite charges at a tank; you have to place them so that they'll slag ideally.

As for the second part, I making fun of the fact that when say.. a raging barbarian sunders a buckler the size with his great axe that weighs a good 10-15 pounds and he can deal in excess of 40 damage per hit; the buckler breaks.

However the arm underneath it is protected by the arbitrarium that was the now broken buckler.

Same if you sunder someones glove of storing. You can 'break' the glove, but you will not deal any HP damage.

That's what I find hilarious.

Also, thermite would be excessive, but it would prolly break any gear a PC carries; unless it was actual stone, then maybe not. Stone gets melted, a bit, when it is hit with thermite; but it won't turn to slag.

Ok, this is the last time i respond to this nonsense, because it is.

(1) Thermite is *not* a melee weapon. Thus you cannot sunder with it.

(2) You can only target one item with a sunder attempt.

(3) You have to hit the item - you attack its AC. That means if it isn't visible, it has full concealment and you have to guess where it is. Even if successful, this means you have a 50% miss chance!

(4) So even if we allow you to sunder with Thermite, you will on average miss 25 of 50 spell component pouches entirely!

(5) You may not sunder an opponents armor while they are wearing it (read the SRD) - which implies that a wizard's robes is an equally invalid target (same slot - and can give an AC bonus). This means anything under or *in* the robes is also perfectly safe.

(6) Note - Fireball gives us precedence for how thermite should be handled (given how you've been arguing thermite is being used). Its an AoE attack (It can't hit *all* the wizard's gear unless it is) that should allow a save, and doesn't effect equipment at all unless you fail the save. High level wizards don't fail saves. In fact, it probably does fire damage which the wizard resists anyway.

Doesn't this whole argument seem a teensy bit retarded to anyone else?

When it got down to the specifics of certain superheros dueling with certain D&D classes, instead of general debate about the power level assumed in the game, well that was a teensy bit. Since then it's been straight downhill to the point where this thread will probably win the best picture Oscar

I find it annoying that people are claiming that Batman MUST be raped up the ass because he's not a magic-user. Like, didn't we have that discussion a long time ago?

There can't be an arbitrary level where magic automatically trumps nonmagic for the only reason that it's magic. Magic has to have rules too.

-Des

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1170529575[/unixtime]]Doesn't this whole argument seem a teensy bit retarded to anyone else?

Well, finally someone said it.

I was just playing devil's advocate.

Squirreloid, yeah, you prolly can't sunder all of a wizard's spell comp pouches; but you can ready an action to sunder the next bag they reach for or just hit them to make them fail their concentration check and fizzle their spell.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1170551674[/unixtime]]

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1170529575[/unixtime]]Doesn't this whole argument seem a teensy bit retarded to anyone else?

Well, finally someone said it.

I was just playing devil's advocate.

Squirreloid, yeah, you prolly can't sunder all of a wizard's spell comp pouches; but you can ready an action to sunder the next bag they reach for or just hit them to make them fail their concentration check and fizzle their spell.

I conceed the rest of this discussion is retarded. I'll also conceed your sunder claim is retarded. But people brought up spell component pouch sundering on WotC, and they got smacked down - it never works. Stopping a non-action doesn't prevent repeat attempts at that non-action.

Seriously, I reach for a spell-component pouch, you sunder it... I reach for another one and continue casting my spell. Whoop de doo. Never bring this up as a valid tactic - it doesn't work.

Now, hitting them for the concentration check might do something - assuming they don't just move away first. But at least you make them move.

Batman obviously stunlocks any magic user who isn't immune to status effects.

Next!

I also vaguely recall the flash had his own set of exclusive physics to acompany his super abilities, so I would think an ability that read "Wild Card" would trump wizard spells, which are usually defined.