The Gaming Den

Kresalak = Cielingcat. How I got this: he posted the warlock from "Making the Warlock from Scratch" at WotC.

Yes, that would be me.

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1174347854[/unixtime]]Some guy there has a "feature point" system for evaluating LA that charges *less* for ability boosts than for +1 Natural Armor or Speak with Burrowing Mammals 1/day, and everyone there treats it like the New Testament.

I can't stand that guy's ridiculous "feature points" or his arrogant attitude. People laud praise onto him and i cant' figure out why.

Two years after I leave and those fuckwits are still calling anything they disagree with 'strawmanning'.

MingT seems to have his head screwed on straight, though.

Calibron at [unixtime wrote:1174407022[/unixtime]]

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1174347854[/unixtime]]Some guy there has a "feature point" system for evaluating LA that charges *less* for ability boosts than for +1 Natural Armor or Speak with Burrowing Mammals 1/day, and everyone there treats it like the New Testament.

I can't stand that guy's ridiculous "feature points" or his arrogant attitude. People laud praise onto him and i cant' figure out why.

I wouldn't mind it much, since I don't read the WotC boards, but those same idiots who love it keep citing it on other boards and expecting people to listen, which gets old very quickly.

You talkin' 'bout YabaTheWhat?

I have to read through that now, just to see the poo-flinging nature of it all.

EDIT: Wow. I'm skimming over it and just got to the kobold. Kobolds are better (worth more FP) than humans? Whuh? Something's obviously out of wack.

Centurion wrote:Because I have played and DMed for them. Have you? I have had a pixie rogue and a succubus with no levels and a good players who knew how to use them. I'm sorry you don't know how to play them.

I see so many people saying, "I'm not powerful. My character isn't as strong as a druid, or cleric, or hulking hurler, or pun pun. Oh, woe is me." If you are so underpowered, talk with your DM. I'm sure you can whine enough so that the DM will make an exception just for you.

And if it all really bothers you, change it. All you people complaining need a good DM. This game is not set in stone. All the rules are guidelines. Use you brain and come up with a new system for monster characters and if you want, post it here. Or just keep complaining, that always works.

Mod Edit: Disturbing image deleted by request. While the joke is now lost, Waesal was insinuating that reading the quoted post caused his brain to rupture.

Yeah, that thread is a veritable gold mine.

I like how Argaud was trying to make us retreat by suggesting that a 4th-level Druid's animal companion would be overpowered as a fourth level character.

Mod Edit: Disturbing image deleted by request. While the joke is now lost, Waesal was insinuating that reading the quoted post caused his brain to rupture.

My head a splode!

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1174407841[/unixtime]]Two years after I leave and those fvckwits are still calling anything they disagree with 'strawmanning'.

Yeah, on the WotC boards, the most common tactic by far is accusing your opponent of using the strawman.

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1174585837[/unixtime]]

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1174407841[/unixtime]]Two years after I leave and those fvckwits are still calling anything they disagree with 'strawmanning'.

Yeah, on the WotC boards, the most common tactic by far is accusing your opponent of using the strawman.

Now, is that the definition of irony, or simply the best example of it?

I accused someone of using a strawman in that thread just now....

Okay practically no one is listen to anyone on the thread and taking each others words out of context.

OK, let's boil down that thread just a bit:

The people who support LAs have one of three arguments:

1. I haven't seen a problem with LA characters being underpowered.
   
2. Therefore they are not underpowered.

That argument is dumb, because the premise equally supports the conclusion "I wouldn't know game balance if it left me a couple of dubs on the nightstand after sex." That's not good.

By saying that you personally haven't noticed a porblem you aren't really arguing against people who say that they have. If person A hears a noise and person B does not, that in no way indicates that there is no noise.

1. A good roleplayer can have fun at any power level.
   
2. Therefore it doesn't matter if LA characters are underpowered because you could just as easily play a character that is crushingly inferior to all the other players and still have a good time.

That argument is at best tangential to anything that anyone is actually talking about. After all, the conclusion "Therefore you could just let players play Ancient Gold Dragons in 1st level parties because game balance doesn't matter" is equally supported. Indeed, by saying that game balance doesn't matter you are essentially opting out of the entire balance discussion. There's nothing to talk about at that point.

And finally:

1. Have you seen Succubi? I mean damn, they are super hot.
   
2. Seriously though, with a good diplomancy build you can walk away with the entire game. Monsters and gods will line up to fan you in your throne. You can rename everyone in town and force them to like it.
   
3. You can make a good diplomacy build whether you have any "hit dice" or not, so honestly, who cares?
   
4. Because you can make even one character who can break the game even while laboring under LA, characters in general who have LA aren't underpowered.

Oh dear. That's the closest one to a compelling argument, because it actualy uses any facts at all. Unfortunately, it too comes apart at the seams. Here's the deal:

Diplomancy and the Succubus:
Just because you can make a 12th level Diplomancer who is a Succubus and can crown herself Queen of Bladereach doesn't mean that this is a level appropriate 12th level character. After all, there are many characters who can crown themselves Queen of Bladereach well before getting to 12th level. There's no limits to the planar army that a 9th level Wizard can bind, an 11th level Cleric can raise an unlimited army of shadows, and a properly min/maxxed druid can simply wipe out Bladereach with weather effects at level 7.

Even the Sucubus' great plan - which is to charm everyone who wouldn't otherwise talk to her and then use the Diplomacy skill to kick them up to Helpful - is available cheese for a Warlock at level 6, a Bard at level 2, and a Beguiler at first level. It's a pretty decent world domination scheme, but it's not 12th level good. That's the level that people start having plans like "Wish for more wishes by getting the free wish from a conjured Glabrezu or Efreet and then using it to get a Staff of wish with 50 charges - then wish for everything you need to put your world domination scheme into action". Indeed, the whole "Charm then Diplomacize" trick - while effective - is actually negatable with (Un)Hallow - which is seriously a defensive enhancement that can be permanently added to any structure or settlement by a 9th level Cleric.

But regardless, that's a waste of time.

The fact that a character can do one thing that's level appropriate does not mean that that character does everything level appropriately, nor does it mean that every character using those rules is level appropriate.

In short, the fact that you can make a Succubus who is in many ways the equal of an 8th level Beguiler does not mean that a Frost Giant is in any way the equal of an 18th level anything. The Frost Giant has a BAB of +9 and a +18 Strength bonus. You can seriously make a better fighter out of a Gnome Wu Jen by casting giant size on yourself every day. Same BAB and more Strength - the fact that you can also create temporary duplicates of yourself and you know, dominate monster on the first Frost Giant you see just to rub it in.

---

So yeah, I don't even know what to say. The personal anecdote arguments are bad, the anti-mechanics arguments are bad, and the mechanical arguments are irrelevently nit picky and don't actually show anything.

Game balance is broken if at any time one character can do everything another character can do at least as well and also has any number of additional talents or is superior to the original character at even one of their shared schticks. Game balance is also broken if a character pays so much for a unique ability that they cannot survive in an appropriate environment or have such narrow utility that they are unlikely to get to do something impressive even as often as once per session.

Level Allowance crosses both lines. The Frost Giant is trivially easy to demonstrate his weakness (in that his BAB is actually the same as the Wizard and the Wizard can just use ninth level spells to outfight him in all categories). On the other end of the spectrum the Succubus has so few hit dice that when faced with a level appropriate challenge (such as an angry spellcaster with circle of death or holy word) that she simply dies to spells that are intended to eliminate low level assistance monsters such as summonings and mounts. In short - at the level she is expected to play she is literally destroyed as an afterthought.

-Username17

Heh, then there's my "favorite" argument seen over on those boards. "If I can show a [trait/classification X] character who can [reach target benchmark T], that proves that [X] [doesn't suck/isn't underpowered/is awesome]!"

Seriously. That's like saying that C + X >= T shows that X > 0. And it's clung to with such fervor that it makes my head hurt. I think that Arguad gave a particularly good example with X = fighter 20 and T = beat a balor, with the conclusion that this proved X>suck.

Hey, guess what? I've got a class here that has three class features. First, it gives you penis cancer. Second, it punches you, the player, in your mouth, and takes your wallet. Third, I guess it gives you a -2 to a bunch of stats or something. Well, optimize up some Hi C, and we'll hit that magic C + X >= T and we can "prove" that it doesn't suck too.

I think I brought that up in the aforementioned thread, with someone else mentioning an aristocrat 20 or commoner 20. Only they weren't heading towards the conclusion that this vacuous methodology held no value, but instead proved the those classes didn't suck either. In fact, I think they stated, "Yay! Nothing sucks! Now let's all get together in a field and circle [EDIT: Probably a bit strong, section removed. /EDIT]

Re-god-damn-diculous.

Yes, indeedy-doody it's ri-god-damn-diculous. But what are ya gonna do? People apparently are incapable of recognizing when an argument's structure prevents it from being valid. People even deny the very value of logic over on the WotC boards. I remember some post by danielinthewolvesden way back when in which he said that logic is only relevant in a "high school debate club".

Oh hey, someone touted the true strike at will item again, and like all others before him, has no idea how it works

Frank - that was a great post. I'd like to snag that for my gaming group.

bitnine wrote:Hey, guess what? I've got a class here that has three class features. First, it gives you penis cancer. Second, it punches you, the player, in your mouth, and takes your wallet. Third, I guess it gives you a -2 to a bunch of stats or something. Well, optimize up some Hi C, and we'll hit that magic C + X >= T and we can "prove" that it doesn't suck too.

Thanx for the smile.

Jesus H Christ what is going on with that thread!?! It's turned into this stupid cycle of insults, and turning into an us vs them match. Each side believing they are right and no one is listen to one another, so there is no way in hell a comprise can be reach.

Someone has to be wrong, I'm betting its that moron arguad who thinks +6 LA is totally cool. (was he one of the same ones who declared a ECL 20 character with +10 LA was also fully playable?)

You can't compromise with stupidity.

And who would want to?

Yes, it is the same moron in every such thread.

Apparently, the following builds "prove" that the Fighter is a balanced 20th level class. Naturally, they're from the same threads that we're talking about, and are 20th level builds with no mention of performance at any other level.

Human Fighter 20

1. Weapon Focus (Morningstar), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
2. Improved Sunder
3. Cleave
4. Weapon Specialization
6. Combat Brute, Shock Trooper
8. Melee Weapon Mastery
9. Brutal Strike
10. Three Mountains
12. Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization
14. Driving Attack
15. Combat Focus
16. Combat Vigor
18. Combat Stability, Weapon Supremacy
20. Combat Strike

This build is designed to be a hard hitter.

Bull Rushing: The Driving Attack feat. As a full round action with a piercing weapon, make an attack. If it hits, you can bull rush the opponent. Replace your strength modifier on the strength check with the total damage you dealt on the attack. Considering you add strength to damage, this feat is pretty awesome. Just by holding your weapon two-handed, you're getting a higher bonus. Then you add the +6 from the Weapon Focus chain, the magic enhancement bonus of the weapon, any Power Attack damage, etc. to the check. Chances are, you will bull rush. Domino Bull Rush and Directed Bull Rush allow you to bull rush your foe in different directions and let's you knock him into other people and attempt trips against them. Advancing Blows gives you bonuses to attack and damage based on how far you Bull Rushed your opponent.

Tripping: The Driving Attack feat. If you bull rush your opponent at least 10 feet, you can reduce the amount you push them by 10 feet and have them fall prone. This completely avoids another opposed check, instead piggybacking on the bull rush. Further, it avoids the 13 intelligence needed for Combat Expertise. As long as you can bull rush something, you can trip it (so long as it's not untrippable).

Sundering: The bonus to attack and damage from the Weapon Focus chain, coupled with an Adamantine weapon give you the edge. Sundering Cleave from Combat Brute let's you follow through a successful sunder with an attack against your opponent. As usual, the Improved Sunder feat gives a bonus on the attack as well.

Status Effects: Brutal Strike forces your opponent to make a fortitude save (DC = 10 + power attack damage) when you power attack them with a bludgeoning weapon or be Sickened for 1 round. The Three Mountains Style forces your opponent to make a fortitude save whenever you hit them twice in the same round with your morningstar (DC is 10+1/2 level+strength). If they fail, they're Nauseated for 1 round.

Power Attack: Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge dumps the penalty to attack into your AC when charging. Very useful (and dangerous). Momentum Swing increases your attack to damage ratio after using power attack on a charge (I believe). The Weapon Focus chain gives you bonuses to attack, mitigating the penalties to attack from Power Attack.

Defense: The Combat Focus chain adds a +4 to Will saves, Fast Healing 4, and a +8 to avoid bull rushes, trips, and grapples. Weapon Supremacy adds a +1 to AC, allows you to use your Morningstar in a grapple, and adds a +4 versus Disarm attempts.

Full Attacks: The Weapon Focus chain adds bonuses to attack and damage, which are always helpful with more attacks. The Three Mountains Style triggers on two or more hits, so a full attack would force your enemy to save or become Nauseated. Weapon Supremacy allows you to take 10 on an attack as well as add +5 to any attack other than your first in a full attack sequence.

Here's a neat sequence: Open up combat with a Heedless Charge, power attacking for full. At the end of the charge, you actually attack the weapon (if any). Sunder it, going into Sundering Cleave. When you hit the enemy, you trigger Brutal Strike. They fail the save and become Sickened. On their turn, they probably full attack you, though it obviously depends on what you're fighting. On your turn, use Driving Attack as a full round action. Take advantage of Momentum Swing, gaining a 3:1 Power Attack ratio holding your morningstar two-handed. Dump 5 into Power Attack, for a +15 to damage. You hit, and bull rush. Enough to trip them as well. On their turn, they can either get up and move towards you (a bad idea) or get up and move away or attack from range. Depending, you can be set up for another charge, a full attack, or another dirving attack.

Human Fighter 20

1. Weapon Focus (Elvencraft Longbow), Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
2. Precise Shot
3. Rapid Shot
4. Weapon Specialization (Elvencraft Longbow)
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Manyshot
8. Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing)
9. Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
10. Greater Weapon Focus (Elvencraft Longbow)
12. Greater Weapon Specialization (Elvencraft Longbow), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
14. Crushing Strike
15. Pulverize Foe
16. Improved Rapid Shot
18. Weapon Supremacy (Elvencraft Longbow), Improved Precise Shot
20. Greater Manyshot

I don't even know half those feats

Damn, I'm not terribly impressed with either fighter.

They fail to do anything spectacular. No outstanding damage, no ability to tank, no ranged schtick, no significant battlefield control, and those status effect abilities are pretty crummy- I'd prefer the abilities that let you daze enemies at the very least.

I love how Argaud keeps thinking that losing 6 HD will somehow give you skill checks as good as a 12th lvl anything.