[Class] The Defender

[CatharzGodfoot]

I might almost put SR in this category, it effectively adds ~+2 to saves (I think).

What? There is an entire category of spells which can be resisted only via SR.

The Fire Giant, Bebilith, and Vrock all have good Fort saves (+14 to +16), so DB will only go off about half the time.

DB is a concentration check, or possibly Will save.

[Manxome]

On the Aura of Safety: You are correct. It is strictly not an Rng power. In my opinion it is close enough that it might as well function as an Rng power.

The part where you can make one save against every effect in the round rather than one save against each effect in the round has profound tactical implications in certain situations.

There's also an opportunity cost and a resource cost to using Aura of Safety, so it's a real tactical choice, not a simple numerical bonus.

So, the Defender could instead ready an action to attack, and get the DB ability off. But you have to remember that a readied action gives you one attack. This is instead of your two normal attacks. The Fire Giant, Bebilith, and Vrock all have good Fort saves (+14 to +16), so DB will only go off about half the time. In other words, the Defender is choosing to be half as effective damage wise for a 50/50 chance of negating the opponents offense (making the opponent half as effective averaged on multiple rounds). This is a wash, a readied DB is no better than a full attack, it is no better than not having the ability.

As CatharzGodfoot noted, the original version is a concentration check, and the change I was considering has a Will save, not a Fort save.

Additionally, the first attack each round is better than the following ones. If the Defender gives up his second attack to negate an opponent's first attack, that's quite possibly a win. Plus, this also saves the Defender a move action, which could theoretically be used for something--if he can turn those into running fights where the opponent only gets a single attack instead of a full attack, then Distracting Blows is working against every enemy attack. He could also use readied bow attacks to try to interrupt enemy movement and prevent them from getting within range at all, if that's preferable.

Plus, I believe the Vrock has to be "adjacent" to use his spores, so I believe he loses some damage there if he doesn't want to provoke an AoO and another risk of DB.

Plus, the Defender has Phalanx Fighter and therefore charging him provokes an AoO, which has a decent chance of interrupting the charge due to DB. All three of those monsters are reasonably likely to make that mistake at least once.

Given that the Knight has mounted combat and speak with animals, I will assume he gets a mount.

Having a mount is not a class ability of the Knight, it's a piece of equipment; you should probably assume the Warrior can get one as well.

The Knight does have class features that make him better at utilizing one, though.

Therefore he would try to go the Designate Opponent archer route and use his mount as interference. He would be using a class ability pretty much every round, and every encounter. Designate Opponent forces tactical choice, so I like it more than an Rng power.

When the Knight is the only person on his side, Designate Opponent really isn't much of a tactical choice, except to the extent that it takes up his swift action (and I can't think of any other class features that use one at the moment, unlike the Defender). It isn't like the monster was going to attack someone else. I guess it adds more risk to using a SoD instead of a damaging attack, but I don't think many monsters on that list have a serious choice between doing damage or doing a SoD.

Plus, when it works, all Designate Opponent gets you is bonus damage. Even if you wanted to argue that this numerical bonus is better than a RNG power on the grounds that it can't push anyone off of the RNG, you should keep in mind that attack bonuses (clearly a RNG abililty) can be converted into damage via PA, so allowing damage bonuses to count while ignoring "RNG abilities" strikes me as profoundly unfair.

If you really want to ignore a certain class of abilities that you don't like, I think it's high time you defined more clearly exactly what abilities fall into that class.

Would you prefer to run it and write a comparison first, or would you like me to do it?

I'll consider doing it at some point if you don't want to, but I'm not sure when I'd get around to it. Feel free to go for it if you're interested.

[CatharzGodfoot]

When the Knight is the only person on his side, Designate Opponent really isn't much of a tactical choice, except to the extent that it takes up his swift action (and I can't think of any other class features that use one at the moment, unlike the Defender).

Energy resistance, draw fire, sacrifice*.

*sacrifice is an immediate action.

Energy resistance stays up until you spend a swift action to alter it, so that's mostly a once per combat choice.

[Manxome]

When the Knight is the only person on his side, Designate Opponent really isn't much of a tactical choice, except to the extent that it takes up his swift action (and I can't think of any other class features that use one at the moment, unlike the Defender).

Energy resistance, draw fire, sacrifice*.

*sacrifice is an immediate action.

Energy resistance stays up until you spend a swift action to alter it, so that's mostly a once per combat choice.

I stand corrected.

May be worth noting that Draw Fire and Sacrifice don't have any obvious utility when you're fighting alone, though. Maybe you can use them to protect your mount or something...

[CatharzGodfoot]

May be worth noting that Draw Fire and Sacrifice don't have any obvious utility when you're fighting alone, though. Maybe you can use them to protect your mount or something...

And this is why the tested defender should probably be mounted, if not with cohort (although that's really stretching it, as an expert with a wizard cohort can probably do OK in the challenge).

[Manxome]

So I've just been re-reading the RoW rules on armor and realized that the build I posted may have incorrectly applied ACP. I now think the ACP should be 18, rather than 20 (assuming the armor and shield are masterwork), and unless I'm mistaken that should reduce his speed by a third (making his fly speed 60 ft, unless that's only supposed to apply to land speed) and prevent him from running, which probably affects the analysis of a couple challenges.

On a related note, the penalties for armor nonproficiency under RoW rules seem to be quite managable in many cases. Unless the +4 ACP is supposed to be in addition to the SRD penalties (where ACP gets applied to attack rolls if you're nonproficient).

[SphereOfFeetMan]

The part where you can make one save against every effect in the round rather than one save against each effect in the round has profound tactical implications in certain situations.

There's also an opportunity cost and a resource cost to using Aura of Safety, so it's a real tactical choice, not a simple numerical bonus.

I fail to see how it "has profound tactical implications." It is a binary choice: Do I want to effectively have bigger numbers this round or not? On opportunity/resource costs: You are forced to choose between bigger numbers from the Aura, bigger numbers from aid, or non-number benefit. That's pretty weak.

As CatharzGodfoot noted, the original version is a concentration check, and the change I was considering has a Will save, not a Fort save.

That is irrelevant. You wanting to choose a bullshit save mechanic does not validate your class. A swashbuckling character might want some kind of mobility strike where they attacked their foes legs, and fluff description of avoiding it would be to jump up out of the way. The swashbuckler doesn't get to force their opponent to make a Jump check to avoid getting hit. You don't get to use bullshit fluff to dictate what save mechanic you use. Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. That's what you get. The Defender is smacking them with a weapon so hard that they lose their turn. It's a Fort save.

Even though what I just said is true, it is irrelevant to the fact that DB is no better than not having it. The Fort save was better than 50/50, and the will save is close to 50/50. I didn't want to get hung up on the numbers.

Additionally, the first attack each round is better than the following ones. If the Defender gives up his second attack to negate an opponent's first attack, that's quite possibly a win.

That will not happen over the course of an encounter. The monster will make the save half the time. So half the time the Defender is being half as effective damage wise, and having no effect whatsoever on the opponents offense. It is a simple concept.

He could also use readied bow attacks to try to interrupt enemy movement and prevent them from getting within range at all, if that's preferable.

First off, DB is worded poorly and it doesn't work the way you describe here. If the readied action DB takes effect, it negates the enemy's single move action. He can then take a double move to get near the Defender. The Defender is up an average 3.75 damage for his one bow strike (7 for chain). That is less average damage or equal to that of an alchemist's fire. This is a best case scenario for DB. Is this seriously what you want to hang your hat on? His only useful non-Rng class ability is the equivalent of a Alchemist Fire each round. That is just sad.

Secondly the "remains in the last square" part only occurs on Attacks of Opportunity, not readied actions, so it is not relevant in that case.

If you really want to ignore a certain class of abilities that you don't like, I think it's high time you defined more clearly exactly what abilities fall into that class.

I made it clear that Rng abilities are stupid based on my opinion. There are certainly gray areas. If want a more explicit breakdown, here it is: (The groups go by least tactical/fun to most tactical/fun)

Pure Rng abilities: These abilities help the class win simply by having bigger numbers. There are no tactics, choice, or fun gained in any way by these abilities.
-Ex Defender ability: Superior Save, Empowered Saves, Defender's Resilience.
-Ex Non-Defender ability: Divine Grace

Rng opportunity choice abilities: These abilities help the class win by effectively having bigger numbers. There is a choice about when/who to apply these numbers. The amount of tactical choice or fun gained from these abilities is very small or nonexistent.
-Ex Defender ability: Immediate Aid*
-Ex Non-Defender ability: A buff spell from a caster at the beginning of the day/dungeon making a certain number bigger for somebody (3.0/3.5 animal buffs). Also Power Attack.

Rng abilities which force tactical choice: These abilities help the class win by effectively having bigger numbers. In order to get this number however, the character must set up a prerequisite situation. In order to attain this situation, oftentimes the player must think of tactics or strategy. This ability is moderately fun.
-Ex Defender ability: Diverting Offense*
-Ex Non-Defender ability: Rogue setting up a flank sneak attack, Knight setting up Designate Opponent ability.

Mundane Non-Rng abilities which force tactical choice: These abilities help the character win through tactical means in conjunction with other abilities or allies. These abilities are simple, fast, and they don't require difficult to create rules. They are fun, yet not fantastic:
-Ex Defender ability: Positional Advantage
-Ex Non-Defender ability: The Rogue tumbling, Ride-by attack etc, many feats. Default combat maneuvers: Grappling, Disarming, etc (also has Rng aspects in addition to non-rng aspects).

Fantastic Non-Rng abilities which force tactical choice: These abilities help the character win through tactical means in conjunction with other abilities or allies. These abilities may or may not be simple and fast. They may or may not require complicated rules. They are the most fun and fantastic abilities in the game. Some people might define these abilities as the real purpose for the groundwork of all Dnd game rules:
-Ex Defender ability: Spell Snare
-Ex Non-Defender ability: Illusions (Ex: Silent Image), Enchantments, Summons, Animated Undead, Divinations, Wall spells, etc.

*(Note that these abilities are weak and usually useless)

---

The biggest problem I have with the Defender's Same Game challenge is that he effectively has no non-Rng class abilities that are worth anything more than nothing in most of his encounters.

[Manxome]

That is irrelevant. You wanting to choose a bullshit save mechanic does not validate your class. A swashbuckling character might want some kind of mobility strike where they attacked their foes legs, and fluff description of avoiding it would be to jump up out of the way. The swashbuckler doesn't get to force their opponent to make a Jump check to avoid getting hit. You don't get to use bullshit fluff to dictate what save mechanic you use. Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. That's what you get. The Defender is smacking them with a weapon so hard that they lose their turn. It's a Fort save.

There are already effects in the game that require will saves to avoid losing actions.

There are already effects in the game that force will saves when you hit someone with a physical attack.

"Smacking them with a weapon so hard they lose their turn" is bullshit fluff, and you are telling me that it requires the save to be Fort. If I labeled it a (Su) and put in fluff about how it momentarily blanks the target's mind, while keeping it otherwise mechanically identical, would that make you happy? It would certainly invalidate your cited reason.

EDIT: Oh, I should also perhaps mention that there already exist special attacks in the Tomes that force the target to defend with a skill. For example, Jester's Feint can only be resisted with a Spot check. One could perhaps argue that that's a less powerful effect and a more common skill, but it still seems to break your stated rule.

Even though what I just said is true, it is irrelevant to the fact that DB is no better than not having it. The Fort save was better than 50/50, and the will save is close to 50/50. I didn't want to get hung up on the numbers.

Actually, for the Fire Giant and the Bebilith, the Will save is actually numerically closer to a concentration check than it is to a Fort save. For the Vrock, the concentration check is better than either save.

But you were the one that brought up the fact that all those monsters have good Fort saves, so I think it is rather unreasonable for you to be upset when someone points out that that doesn't matter.

First off, DB is worded poorly and it doesn't work the way you describe here. If the readied action DB takes effect, it negates the enemy's single move action. He can then take a double move to get near the Defender. The Defender is up an average 3.75 damage for his one bow strike (7 for chain). That is less average damage or equal to that of an alchemist's fire. This is a best case scenario for DB. Is this seriously what you want to hang your hat on? His only useful non-Rng class ability is the equivalent of a Alchemist Fire each round. That is just sad.

Assuming that those numbers are based on an assumed 50% hit rate and not some more arcane formula, you seem to be neglecting the +10 damage on the bow within the first range increment and the fort save to avoid dazing if struck by the chain. Not class features, admittedly, but since you seem to care about the specific numbers of the actual posted build in this particular case...

Additionally, you should note that the value of trading actions with an enemy changes dramatically based on the ratio of creatures involved on each side. If you're in a party of 4 fighting one or two opponents, trading one of your actions for one of theirs suddenly becomes a lot more appealing. Doesn't affect the SGC, just want to make sure you're not forgetting that this is another ability that's fundamentally better in groups.

Secondly the "remains in the last square" part only occurs on Attacks of Opportunity, not readied actions, so it is not relevant in that case.

OK, that could be worded better, but under a strict reading of the current wording this actually does still work. There's nothing that says the move can continue if it was a readied attack instead of an AoO; the action is still "lost," and if the readied attack's condition is "the monster attempts to move," then the action will be lost before any movement has taken place.

Though the last sentence is admittedly confusing, on account of it having been written before I decided the ability should work on readied attacks, too. I'll be sure to clarify that.

I made it clear that Rng abilities are stupid based on my opinion. There are certainly gray areas. If want a more explicit breakdown, here it is: (The groups go by least tactical/fun to most tactical/fun)

OK, so first I should point out that you seem to be using "RNG" to mean "numerical," which is not the same thing. For example, you seem to include HP as a "RNG" ability, despite the fact that it does not modify any die rolls. So that's one thing that could stand to be clearer.

Secondly, even saying "numerical" is kind of hand-wavey, since even highly abstract abilities can usually be expressed numericallly if we really care. Does this cover changes to movement speed? How about movement type (can be viewed as increasing the number of places you can move to, or as a trick for changing the speed at which your opponent can pursue)? Changes to number of attacks or number of actions you can take? Changes to the number of steps needed to achieve some goal? Trade-offs between numbers, like power attack? Changes to the way the game's math scales, like negating size modifiers? Bypassing numbers, like getting the Edge without a higher BAB?

However you slice it, though, I'm not sure how many Tome classes are going to hold up to your expectations. For example, I'm currently looking through the class abilities of the Samurai up to level 10...

Ancestral Weapon: ghost touch (negates 50% miss chance), automatic enhancement bonus, double (item) HPs, +10 hardness...arguably all numerical
Pledge of Loyalty: unclear and situational immunity, or more general +4 bonus (RNG)
Kiai!: more damage (numerical)
Ancestral Guidance: non-combat, as far as I can tell
Terrible Blows: bypass DR/hardness (numerical)
Iaijutsu: attack as an immediate action if you have the Edge (not sure how you'll feel about that one)
Parry Magic: forfeit an AoO to get another die roll for resisting a spell (seems about as RNG-y as Aura of Safety to me)
Blade of Devastation: destroy unattended objects with hardness less than 20 (combat application: ignore cover), destroy force effects

Bonus feats: Horde Breaker, Whirlwind Attack, Blindfighting, Subtle Cut

I can't claim to have any overwhelming confidence in my ability to predict how much you'll like particular abilities, but it's not obvious to me that the Samurai is doing more non-numerical stuff at that level than the Defender is. He gets more bonus feats that you may like, I guess.

[Manxome]

Currently considering various possible changes to the Defender; would appreciate reactions to each of these options...

1. Unify ranges of Uncanny Rescue, Spell Static, Spell Stretch, Spell Snare, Reflect Woes, Unerring Sentinel, and maybe Ranged Aid so they're consistent and hopefully easier to keep track of. All of these effects would work at a distance of 10 feet up through 8th level, then increase to 20 feet at 9th level and again to 40 feet at 14th level. And maybe again around level 18-20?
2. Change range of Aura of Safety to "line of sight" or some large constant, to eliminate another distance variable that needs to be tracked. It is usually supposed to affect the entire party anyway.
3. Move Improved Aid (double bonus from Aid Another) from level 13 to level 2 (same level as Immediate Aid), to ensure that this is a worthwhile use of an action at all levels.
4. New ability:
   Armor Mastery (Ex): A Defender acts as a shield for his allies, and must be strong enough to withstand mortal blows while remaining swift enough to intercept them. At 5th level, the armor check penalty of any armor or shield being used by a Defender is reduced by 4. (Note: Under RoW rules, armor reduces movement speed based on its ACP rather than its weight class, so this allows the Defender to wear heavier armor without losing speed.)
5. New ability:
   Opportunity Cost (Ex): By 10th level, a Defender has gained insight into the flow of battle and can anticipate the reactions of less experienced warriors. If the Defender has the Edge on an opponent, he may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent whenever the opponent makes an attack of opportunity. (Yes, this means that two Defenders with the Edge on each other can theoretically make their maximum per-round AoOs against each other in one go.)
6. New Ability:
   Spell Screen (Su): A Defender of 13th level is constantly protected by a barrier against lesser magics. This functions as a Globe of Invulnerability that is always centered on him, except its radius is 20 feet (increases to 40 feet at 14th level along with everything else, if I implement that change). This effect may be suppressed or resumed as a free action.
7. New Ability:
   Effortless Motion (Ex): Defenders are expected to adapt their tactics to any situation without wasted effort. Upon reaching 15th level, a Defender may forfeit a swift action to take a move action, or vice versa. The move action from the Defender's current or next turn may be forfeited to perform an immediate action, just as is normally possible with a swift action (and thus the Defender can potentially take two immediate actions in a round).

These options are mostly independent, so any or all of them could theoretically be taken; separate impressions of each would be helpful, but also feelings regarding the Defender's overall power level.

Also, I kind of want to change the name of Spell Mirror to something alliterative, to be similar to everything else in the series, but I have not succeeded in selecting a satisfying sibilant synonym (the suitability of "Spell Split" and "Spell Shadow" seem suspect). So saddening. Suggestions?

[Maxus]

Well, unifying the ranges of the effects is a good idea, but I think it should extend a bit further. Maybe it scales directly with level, like 5' per level, starting at 15 or so feet.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

There are already effects in the game that require will saves to avoid losing actions.

No shit. That’s because those effects target the enemy’s mind. Like the Daze Monster spell.

There are already effects in the game that force will saves when you hit someone with a physical attack.

Name one that meets the following conditions (The same as DB):
-Is extraordinary
-The Dc is scalable and dependant upon the amount of physical damage done.
-The Dc is a will save.

OK, that could be worded better, but under a strict reading of the current wording this actually does still work.

No it does not. And since you edited your mistake, I cannot correct you. Kudos.

However you slice it, though, I'm not sure how many Tome classes are going to hold up to your expectations.

Every Tome class has Rng abilities. They also have at least one useful non-rng ability. The Defender does not (unless you count Alchemist Fire sized damage, 7 points or less, as relevant).

[Manxome]

Name one that meets the following conditions (The same as DB):
-Is extraordinary
-The Dc is scalable and dependant upon the amount of physical damage done.
-The Dc is a will save.

OK, so you would be satisfied if I relabeled it (Su) and used a "normal" DC instead of a damage-dependent one?

This sounds a lot like a case of "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things." Resisting distraction due to pain sounds to me like an eminently reasonable thing for willpower to do. Also, the idea that "magical" classes should be able to target any defense, but "non-magical" classes shouldn't, is clearly unfair.

OK, that could be worded better, but under a strict reading of the current wording this actually does still work.

No it does not. And since you edited your mistake, I cannot correct you. Kudos.

The original version is still there, right below it, in strikethrough. Correct away. Not that I think it's particularly important exactly how an editing error altered the effects of an ability...

Every Tome class has Rng abilities. They also have at least one useful non-rng ability.

Given that I'm still not clear on exactly what you mean by "RNG ability," I am unable to evaluate this statement. It would also be interesting to know what you consider to be the minimum acceptable level at which the first "useful non-rng ability" is granted.


No comments at all on the possible changes I brainstormed?

[SphereOfFeetMan]

OK, so you would be satisfied if I relabeled it (Su) and used a "normal" DC instead of a damage-dependent one?

It would be less stupid that way.

Resisting distraction due to pain sounds to me like an eminently reasonable thing for willpower to do.

Fortitude: These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health.
...
Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects.
...

Physical pain is physical punishment. Physical pain is not mental influence nor a magical effect. I don't know how I can be more clear.

---

This sounds a lot like a case of "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things."...Also, the idea that "magical" classes should be able to target any defense, but "non-magical" classes shouldn't, is clearly unfair.

I'm the one saying the Defender isn't strong enough. The Defender should be stronger. I am just adamant about following fundamental premises of the game.

The original version is still there, right below it, in strikethrough. Correct away. Not that I think it's particularly important exactly how an editing error altered the effects of an ability...

Distracting Blows (Ex): Whenever the Defender of 9th level deals damage with an attack of opportunity or readied attack, the target must make a concentration check (DC 10 + damage dealt) or lose the action, even if the action would not normally require a concentration check to avoid interruption. If the action was a movement and the target fails the concentration check, he remains in the last square he occupied before provoking the attack of opportunity.

A creature gets more than one action each round. So when a creature fails their saving throw, and their single move action is nullified, they can use their other action to move. In the last sentence, it states "...he remains in the last square he occupied before provoking the attack of opportunity." Since there was no AoO provoked in the readied action situation, there is no reason why the creature is forced to remain in the last square for his second move action.

I have no idea which abilities are editing errors and which are not. If I criticize an ability, and that criticism is rendered irrelevant because of something I cannot know, then I cannot help.

It would also be interesting to know what you consider to be the minimum acceptable level at which the first "useful non-rng ability" is granted.

Preferably level one. Level 11+ is too late.

[Manxome]

Fortitude: These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health.
...
Will: These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects.
...

Physical pain is physical punishment. Physical pain is not mental influence nor a magical effect. I don't know how I can be more clear.

OK, I have never actually seen those definitions before. I don't have a PHB, and the SRD is rather poorly organized.

I'm the one saying the Defender isn't strong enough. The Defender should be stronger. I am just adamant about following fundamental premises of the game.

OK, I still think this fundamental premise is fundamentally stupid, but that's a valid argument. I guess I'll make it (Su).

A creature gets more than one action each round. So when a creature fails their saving throw, and their single move action is nullified, they can use their other action to move. In the last sentence, it states "...he remains in the last square he occupied before provoking the attack of opportunity." Since there was no AoO provoked in the readied action situation, there is no reason why the creature is forced to remain in the last square for his second move action.

Oh. Yes, I believe that's actually correct in the revised version as well. I thought you were arguing that the readied attack wouldn't even prevent the first movement action.

I have no idea which abilities are editing errors and which are not.

Yes, except in the special case where you critize it, I tell you it's an error, and then you continue to criticize it.

It would also be interesting to know what you consider to be the minimum acceptable level at which the first "useful non-rng ability" is granted.

Preferably level one. Level 11+ is too late.

I have attempted to communicate that you might be easier to satisfy if you could manage to be less vague. And maybe cite precedents a little more often.

So, which RoW classes give abilities at level 1 that satisfy you?

Fighter: Combat Focus, Weapon Training
Barbarian: Rage, Fast Healing
Knight: Designate Opponent, Mounted Combat
Samurai: Ancestral Weapon, Pledge of Loyalty
Death Knight (PrC): Sword of Death (bonus damage), Life and Death (you can become undead)
Demon Samurai (PrC): Mantle of the Dark One (any armor you wear turns into demon armor)
Dragon Lancer (PrC): Dragon Mount, Dragon Skills (+3 bonus), Dragon Resistance (energy resistance)
Legendary Strategist (PrC): A World of Opportunity (extra immediate action/round), Assistance (grant ally a reroll as immediate), Legacies of Command (bonus to Command and Leadership)

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Yes, except in the special case where you critize it, I tell you it's an error, and then you continue to criticize it.

No. You said "OK, that could be worded better, but under a strict reading of the current wording this actually does still work." It does not still work. You said “He could also use readied bow attacks to try to interrupt enemy movement and prevent them from getting within range at all, if that's preferable.” That is false, it does not work.

I have attempted to communicate that you might be easier to satisfy if you could manage to be less vague. And maybe cite precedents a little more often.

On this same page I cited multiple examples for 5 different tiers of Rng focus in abilities. I even used an example Defender ability and non-Defender ability for each tier.

So, which RoW classes give abilities at level 1 that satisfy you?

Fighter: Combat Focus, Weapon Training
Barbarian: Rage, Fast Healing
Knight: Designate Opponent, Mounted Combat
Samurai: Ancestral Weapon, Pledge of Loyalty
Death Knight (PrC): Sword of Death (bonus damage), Life and Death (you can become undead)
Demon Samurai (PrC): Mantle of the Dark One (any armor you wear turns into demon armor)
Dragon Lancer (PrC): Dragon Mount, Dragon Skills (+3 bonus), Dragon Resistance (energy resistance)
Legendary Strategist (PrC): A World of Opportunity (extra immediate action/round), Assistance (grant ally a reroll as immediate), Legacies of Command (bonus to Command and Leadership)

Fighter: Weapons training is almost entirely an Rng effect, as is Combat Focus. Unsatisfied at level 1. Level 2 gives a feat, satisfied at level 2.
Barbarian: Rage is dependant upon Rng qualities. The choice between when to Rage and when to Fast Heal is somewhat good (interesting/fun/tactical). However, given that the Barbarian is designed and intended to be used by new players or those in a beer and pretzels game, it is supposed to win by having bigger numbers. Satisfied at level 1.
Knight: Mounted Combat is a good ability that has nothing to do with the Rng. That’s one. Designate Opponent is an Rng ability which forces tactical choice. Satisfied at level 1.

Samurai: Ancestral Weaponry has Rng qualities, but it also gives Ghost Touch. Pledge of Loyalty gives immunity to mind-affecting effects against actions against his Lord’s family. Unsatisfied at level 1. Gets a feat at 2nd level, satisfied at level 2.
Death Knight (PrC): A Dk can become a Vampire, Ghoul, Revenant or Swordwraith. These give all kinds of special attacks/qualities. Satisfied at level 1.
Demon Samurai (PrC): This class ability gives you equipment which is only usable with skill ranks. If those conditions are met, it gives you the ability to see souls within 120 ft, which is very good. Satisfied at level 1.

Dragon Lancer (PrC): You get a fucking Dragon. Satisfied at level 1.
Legendary Strategist (PrC): A World of Opportunity gives an extra immediate action, which potentially could create huge combinations of effects dependant upon what he can spend it on. Legacies of Command gives you more followers, which potentially could be good. This class is borderline since the class in itself doesn’t give you anything to spend WoO except Assistance at level 1. Trapmaker is an awesome ability, certainly satisfied at level 2.

So I am satisfied with 6 of the 8 classes you listed at level 1. I am certainly satisfied with all of them by at least level 2.

[Manxome]

Yes, except in the special case where you critize it, I tell you it's an error, and then you continue to criticize it.

No. You said "OK, that could be worded better, but under a strict reading of the current wording this actually does still work." It does not still work. You said “He could also use readied bow attacks to try to interrupt enemy movement and prevent them from getting within range at all, if that's preferable.” That is false, it does not work.

But that's not the part that I said worked. The words you quoted were in direct response to this (quoted right above them):

Secondly the "remains in the last square" part only occurs on Attacks of Opportunity, not readied actions, so it is not relevant in that case.

And while you are correct that DB won't cancel both move actions with a readied attack, you can still kite an enemy of equal or lower speed by negating one move action per round, as long as you start outside its threatened range. And an enemy that isn't savvy to your tactics is quite likely to charge (especially if you're more than one move away), which lets you interrupt a full-round action instead.

And there's various other tactics made viable by the "Opportunity Cost" ability I brainstormed a few posts back. Feel free to look over that list and tell me if there's anything in it you like, by the way.

So I am satisfied with 6 of the 8 classes you listed at level 1. I am certainly satisfied with all of them by at least level 2.

So you like bonus feats in general, but not Danger Sense (Defender 3)? Or you're annoyed that it doesn't come up one level earlier?

I also feel that you may be giving a bit too much credit to class features that let you do something you might well have managed to do without the class. For example, I'm not aware of anything that actually prevents you from wearing actual demon armor if you don't have a class feature to transform everything into it, and having the class feature means that you don't have the option of wearing any other kind of armor.


EDIT: So, a thought regarding Distracting Blows. Interrupting the target's current action is strictly weaker than dazing him for a round. Forcing a save to avoid dazing is a 6+ ability in a [Combat] feat (Combat School). Would it be fair/sensible to make the save DC a couple points higher, to make a "weaker but more reliable" effect? Or, alternately, should it just work with no save? (Back when I made it a Concentration check, I did expect that there would be many enemies against which it would almost always work.)

[SphereOfFeetMan]

And while you are correct that DB won't cancel both move actions with a readied attack, you can still kite an enemy of equal or lower speed by negating one move action per round, as long as you start outside its threatened range.

I thought you no longer wanted to judge the Defender by kiting standards? Also, the Alchemist Fire argument again.

So you like bonus feats in general, but not Danger Sense (Defender 3)?

Up to level 10, Danger sense gives you + to Init (Rng), you are actively searching, you get uncanny dodge, and you take 10 on perception checks (Rng). You didn’t have any of those abilities used in the Defender’s Same Game challenge, or even mentioned. So no, I don’t like Danger Sense. In any case, I think it is irrelevant to critique the Defender’s class abilities by criticizing bonus feats in RoW.

I also feel that you may be giving a bit too much credit to class features that let you do something you might well have managed to do without the class. For example, I'm not aware of anything that actually prevents you from wearing actual demon armor if you don't have a class feature to transform everything into it, and having the class feature means that you don't have the option of wearing any other kind of armor.

A ring of evasion doesn’t mean that the Rogue’s Evasion class ability is not worth anything. There are different costs, either opportunity costs (class levels) or gp costs. There is something in the Demon Samurai’s Mantle of Dark One description about not taking negative level penalties. I don’t know and can’t find if that actually does anything or not. Also, I can’t find any rules for attaining or creating Demon Armor. The description states it is crafted from a live Demon, so it might otherwise be difficult to attain for a 7th level martial character.

EDIT: So, a thought regarding Distracting Blows. Interrupting the target's current action is strictly weaker than dazing him for a round. Forcing a save to avoid dazing is a 6+ ability in a [Combat] feat (Combat School). Would it be fair/sensible to make the save DC a couple points higher, to make a "weaker but more reliable" effect? Or, alternately, should it just work with no save? (Back when I made it a Concentration check, I did expect that there would be many enemies against which it would almost always work.)

Eh. You know how I feel about bumping numbers in order to bolster an ability’s worth. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t like how the Defender gives up 2 potentially dazing attacks from a full attack for 1 dazing attack with DB on a single readied action melee attack. Frankly I see little worth in having a unique ability that functions similarly to a dazing effect, but not quite. Do you really want to be forcing melee enemies to make 2 Fort saves vs every melee attack, with only a slight variation of effect? And they are redundant?

Any ability should have level appropriate Dc numbers, or no save at all (with an appropriate opportunity cost). Otherwise you end up in a place where you can rationalize insanely powerful effects with an artificially low Dc, and weak effects with an artificially high Dc. Combine that with Dnd monster numbers which are stupidly divergent, and you end up in Crazy Town.

Removing the save? Do you want to define the Defender at The Kite Class? A no-save DB with readied actions and a ranged attack will do that.

Personally, I don’t see much value in DB. I’d make a new ability instead. I don’t know how I can be more constructive than that.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm not entirely sure what the role of the defender is supposed to be in normal terms. Although the focus is on defense, in some ways they seem all over the place. I'm not saying that's bad, just that it's hard to pin down.

I'd consider the following flavor change, along the lines of the marshall: an 'aura' ability either works for anyone capable of hearing you or everyone within the area you threaten (like unerring sentinal and hinder). The 'hearing' range could instead be 'anyone you have LoS to and can communicate with (similar to what you suggest for Aura of Safety).

That creates a fairly solid view of the defender: she's armed with a reach weapon (possibly enlarged), and constantly flailing the thing around to deflect attacks and spells aimed at her allies, while shouting warnings and advice to those she can't reach. At higher levels it might be in her best interests to take the Point Blank Shot feat and use a bow (60' radius threatened area).

There's really nothing in the defender's job description that says 'heavily armored', so armor mastery (and *gasp* great shield proficiency) might not make sense. This is especially true when multiple AoO abilities are factored in. If you do want them using shields, then the ability to use a reach weapon and a shield at the same time would be appropriate. Now the defender is swinging around her spear and her shield, deflecting attacks and smacking enemies in the face. TWFing becomes almost a given, what with its big AoO boost (unless you're using a bow).

[*]Unify ranges of Uncanny Rescue, Spell Static, Spell Stretch, Spell Snare, Reflect Woes, Unerring Sentinel, and maybe Ranged Aid so they're consistent and hopefully easier to keep track of. All of these effects would work at a distance of 10 feet up through 8th level, then increase to 20 feet at 9th level and again to 40 feet at 14th level. And maybe again around level 18-20?

Yes.

[*]New Ability:
Effortless Motion (Ex): Defenders are expected to adapt their tactics to any situation without wasted effort. Upon reaching 15th level, a Defender may forfeit a swift action to take a move action, or vice versa. The move action from the Defender's current or next turn may be forfeited to perform an immediate action, just as is normally possible with a swift action (and thus the Defender can potentially take two immediate actions in a round).

Tactically interesting, but not super-powered. The biggest exploit for a normal melee character is probably using it as a pounce.

Also, I kind of want to change the name of Spell Mirror to something alliterative, to be similar to everything else in the series, but I have not succeeded in selecting a satisfying sibilant synonym (the suitability of "Spell Split" and "Spell Shadow" seem suspect). So saddening. Suggestions?

'Mutual Magic' describes what actually happens, but doesn't sound very good.

[Manxome]

Well, whatever else it does, Distracting Blows is supposed to combo with Retaliatory Strike to prevent enemies from attacking your allies while you threaten them. I suppose I could just make it only do that and give the Defender a different general ability.

More thoughts at some later time.

[Manxome]

OK, did another round of brainstorming, rearranged a bunch of stuff, new write-up. Note that Distracting Blows no longer works on readied attacks, only attacks of opportunity. Better, or worse?

By the way, Sphere, I wanted to mention that I do actually appreciate having someone complain and hold my feet to the fire. Hope I'm not driving you crazy.

Defender
"One step closer, and your master will be receiving your head on a silver platter."

Defenders are able warriors that prioritize the safety of their allies over the destruction of their enemies. Of course, destroying their enemies helps protect their allies, so most Defenders pursue this objective as well. Some Defenders are noble and idealistic and strive to protect the helpless; others just figure that keeping their current allies alive is easier than finding new ones.

Defenders focus on martial combat and do not practice any traditional form of spellcasting, but they can't exactly ignore magic, given the number of magical threats in the world. Consequently, Defenders learn to manipulate the magic around them.

Alignment: Any. Usually (but not always) similar to the alignment of the people the Defender wants to protect.

Races: Races that don't value staying alive tend not to last very long. Defenders may be of any race.

Starting Age: As fighter.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: The Defender's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus

BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Vigilance, Immediate Aid, Aura of Safety
2 Devoted Defense, Anticipate Opportunity, Expert Reflexes
3 Danger Sense
4 Quick Lift, Tight Formation, Unresting Guard
5 Positional Advantage, Improved Aid, Empowered Saves
6 Spell Static, Lasting Aid, Radiate Courage
7 Retaliatory Strike, Diverting Offense
8 Spell Stretch, Improved Withdraw, Greater Aura of Safety
9 Distracting Blows, Deadly Defense
10 Defender's Resilience
11 Ranged Aid, Greater Defensive Perimeter
12 Spell Simulacrum
13 Effortless Motion, Instant Aura of Safety
14 Superior Save, Improved Retaliatory Strike
15 Reflect Woes
16 Spell Snare
17 General Aid
18 Unerring Sentinel, Supreme Defensive Perimeter
19 Warped Reach
20 Eternal Aura of Safety, Greater Aid

Vigilance (Ex): Defenders learn to pay acute attention to their surroundings at all times. A Defender may make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed. Any ally the Defender can reach benefits from Uncanny Dodge (though the Defender himself does not). In addition, any ally within the Defender's reach shares any dodge bonus to AC or saves that the Defender receives, for as long as the Defender receives it and the ally remains within reach.

Immediate Aid (Ex): A Defender is aware of the plight of his allies at all times. He may Aid Another as an immediate action.

Aura of Safety (Su): As a swift action, a Defender may project an Aura of Safety to protect himself and his allies. Roll a d20 and add the Defender's highest save to the result. For one round, the Defender and all allies he can see automatically succeed on the save against any spell or spell-like ability whose DC is less than or equal to the result (if the DC is higher, the target may still attempt a save as normal). This ability may be used a number of times per day equal to 3 + his charisma modifier.

At 8th level, Aura of Safety works against any effect that allows a save. It is now usable a number of times per day equal to half the Defender's class levels + his charisma modifier.

At 13th level, using Aura of Safety becomes a free action, instead of a Swift action.

At 20th level, there is no longer a limit to the number of times per day the Defender may project an Aura of Safety.

Devoted Defense (Ex): At 2nd level, when a Defender takes a Total Defense action, he gains a dodge bonus to AC equal to half his class level, in addition to the usual +4. In addition, the Defender may still make attacks of opportunity during a round that he takes a Total Defense action; in fact, he may make a number of extra attacks of opportunity equal to the number of attacks he can make during a Full Attack.

Anticipate Opportunity (Ex): By 2nd level, a Defender has honed his ability to anticipate and exploit openings in enemy defenses. If an enemy takes an action that would provoke an attack of opportunity from the Defender (including a movement), but the Defender does not threaten the target, the Defender may forfeit one of his attacks of opportunity for the round to move 5' to a position where he threatens that enemy (and may then perform the attack of opportunity as normal). This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

Expert Reflexes (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a Defender can make a number of additional attacks of opportunity each round equal to half his class level.

Danger Sense: At 3rd level, a Defender receives Danger Sense as a bonus feat. If he already has Danger Sense, he may select any feat for which he meets the prerequisites.

Quick Lift (Ex): Often the best way to protect someone is simply to separate them from the threat. Upon reaching 4th level, a Defender may make a "Lift" grapple attempt as a swift action. If the Defender moves on the same turn, this may be done at any point during the movement, and the Defender may continue moving afterwards.

Tight Formation (Ex): Defenders never assume they are anyone's primary target, and learn to position themselves accordingly. At 4th level, a Defender may choose to count as being 5' in any direction from his actual position for purposes of determining whether he provides cover to another creature.

Unresting Guard (Ex): Once the Defender has reached 4th level, he never becomes fatigued and no longer requires sleep. He is now immune to magical sleep effects.

Positional Advantage (Ex): A Defender considers danger to others more important than danger to himself. As an immediate action, a Defender of 5th level may move one touched creature (but not himself) five feet in any direction. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the target is unwilling, the Defender must succeed at a touch attack to move the target, and provokes an attack of opportunity from the target unless he has the Edge against that target.

Improved Aid (Ex): Whenever a Defender of 5th level performs an Aid Another action, he provides double the usual bonus.

Empowered Saves (Su): After reaching 5th level, a Defender always benefits from a resistance bonus to his saves equal to one third his character level, rounded up.

Spell Static (Su): Magic doesn't behave entirely normally near a Defender. Once the Defender has reached 6th level, he gains spell resistance equal to 10 + his level. Any allies the Defender can reach also benefit from this spell resistance.

Lasting Aid (Ex): When a Defender of 6th level uses an Aid Another action to provide an ally with a bonus, that bonus applies to every relevant roll within the next round, instead of only to the first one.

Radiate Courage (Ex): At 6th level, a Defender becomes immune to [Fear] effects, and all [Fear] effects are suppressed on any ally benefitting from his Aura of Safety.

Retaliatory Strike (Ex): A 7th-level Defender zealously protects his allies. A creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the Defender whenever it makes an attack that does not target him. If the attack would already provoke an attack of opportunity, it provokes a second one. At 14th level, attacks of opportunity made with this ability do not count against the Defender's limit of attacks of opportunity per round.

Diverting Offense (Ex): Once a Defender has reached 7th level, any creature within a Defender's reach can neither grant nor receive flanking bonuses, unless he allows it.

Spell Stretch (Su): At 8th level, a Defender learns to manipulate the duration of magical effects. Whenever the Defender or any creature within his reach is affected by a spell or spell-like ability with a duration other than instantaneous, concentration, or permanent, the Defender automatically knows the effect's duration, and may opt to increase or decrease it by up to 50%. This is not an action.

Improved Withdraw (Ex): Defenders prefer a tactical retreat to mutually-assured destruction. When a Defender of 8th level performs a Withdraw action, he provokes no attacks of opportunity from any opponents he can see for any movement taken during the action.

Distracting Blows (Su): A Defender of 9th level has learned to momentarily disrupt the focus of opponents with his attacks. Whenever the Defender makes a successful attack of opportunity, the target must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + CHA) or lose its current action. If the target fails this save while moving, it remains in the last space it occupied before provoking the attack of opportunity.

Deadly Defense (Ex): By 9th level, a Defender has learned to goad enemies into mistakes through care and patience. When the Defender takes a Total Defense action, anyone attacking him before his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the Defender. If the attacker has the Edge, the Defender's attack of opportunity is resolved after the initial attack (and therefore does not benefit from Distracting Blows).

Defender's Resilience: At 10th level, a Defender receives any one of Great Fortitude, Iron Will, or Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat. If he already has all three of these feats, he may select any feat for which he meets the prerequisites.

Ranged Aid (Ex): A Defender of 11th level may use Aid Another actions to hinder any opponent he can see within 60 feet, rather than just opponents within his reach.

Greater Defensive Perimeter (Ex): Upon reaching 11th level, all of the Defender's class features whose range is dependent on his reach also extend 5' beyond (and before) his reach. Alternately, if he is armed with a ranged weapon, these effects extend out to 30'.

Spell Simulacrum (Su): When a Defender of 12th level is targeted by a spell (or within the area affected by an area spell), he may choose for that spell to also affect the caster (the caster is entitled to saves or spell resistance as normal for the spell). This is not an action.

Effortless Motion (Ex): Defenders are expected to adapt their tactics to any situation without wasted effort. Upon reaching 13th level, a Defender may forfeit a swift action to take a move action, or vice versa. The move action from the Defender's current or next turn may be forfeited to perform an immediate action, just as is normally possible with a swift action (and thus the Defender can potentially take two immediate actions in a round).

Superior Save (Ex): When a Defender attains 14th level, one of his saves (fortitude, reflex, or will) becomes a Superior Save. Whenever he uses that save, he may add his highest attribute modifier (whichever it is at the time) instead of the usual attribute (CON, DEX, or WIS, respectively).

Reflect Woes (Su): When a Defender of 15th level makes a successful attack, at his option, all poisons, diseases, negative levels, and ability damage afflicting the Defender or any ally within his reach are transferred (with their remaining durations) to the target. This transfer bypasses the target's immunity to any effect he is capable of inflicting.

Spell Snare (Su): A Defender of 16th level has learned to entrap magical effects as they pass by. Whenever a spell or spell-like ability with a range of at least 5' and no more than "Long" is cast such that its line of effect passes within the Defender's reach, he automatically knows the spell being cast and its target (though not necessarily the caster). If the spell targets a creature, object, point, or area, the Defender may choose for the spell to target himself, one of his held items, or his position (as appropriate) instead. If he snares a spell that requires an attack roll, the attack automatically succeeds, but the Defender is still entitled to a saving throw or spell resistance as appropriate for the spell. This is not an action.

General Aid (Ex): When a Defender of 17th level uses Aid Another to hinder an opponent and provide an attack or AC bonus to an ally, he provide bonuses to both attack and AC (rather than just one), and that bonus applies to all allies (rather than just one).

Unerring Sentinel (Ex): Once the Defender has reached 18th level, he suppresses all of the following conditions on any allies within his reach: dazed, confused, entangled, and all fear and sleep effects. Additionally, any ally within the Defender's reach that is helpless is treated as being stunned instead.

Supreme Defensive Perimeter (Ex): Upon reaching 18th level, all of the Defender's class features whose range is dependent on his reach also extend 10' beyond (and before) his reach. Alternately, if he is armed with a ranged weapon, these effects extend out to 60'.

Warped Reach (Su): At 19th level, a Defender armed with any melee weapon can reach every square that is occupied or threatened by any ally within 100 feet, even if he does not have line of effect to those squares. The Defender also provides a flanking bonus to any ally attacking any creature the Defender threatens, regardless of relative position.

Greater Aid (Ex): Whenever a Defender of 20th level performs an Aid Another action, he provides triple the usual bonus (instead of double from Improved Aid)

[Cynic]

nothing major to add at this point as I don't have long at the comp. But it's spelled vigilance rather than vigilence.

[Manxome]

Fixed.

[Bigode]

- Vigilance doesn't mention uncanny dodge stacking - intentional?
- I'd say Distracting blows should affect readied actions - not because you're somewhy gonna do it all the time, but sometimes you wouldn't have a target without readying.
- I'd ask you to include opportunity cost, and bring aggressive defense back.
- Deadly defense: someone attacking the defender during total defense? ROFLMAO