Some Personal Classes made for 3.75 ed

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:06 am

MGuy: Everything in that post was utterly wrong.

First: It absolutely is constructive criticism: Decide what you want to do, and start over. Just because you don't want to hear the advice, and he put it after expressing how awful what you have is now, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Second: The fighter sucks. That's a proven fact. If you are writing material that takes DM intervention to be made playable (like the fighter), then go write it somewhere else. We write things to be able to do what they're supposed to do on their own, without having the DM give out pity treasure and stealth-buffs by making the monsters dumb.

Third: The test Frank proposed is actually provably sound.
Your character should be able to go into a 50% win rate in a mirror match.
A mirror match for a level n character is CR n
Substituting a CR n monster for another CR n monster should not change the encounter difficulty, unless the replacement specifically exploits weaknesses/has exploitable weaknesses of the character.
A character is underpowered if they have guaranteed-loss level exploitable weaknesses against more than half of the monster manual, and overpowered if they are able to exploit the weaknesses in more than half the monster manual to get guaranteed wins.

A character of level n, therefore, can fight a monster of CR n and win half the time. It won't be 50% against each individual monster, of course, but it should be about 50% against the entire book.

Alternate proof:
A party of level n (4 level n characters) is expected to lose half the time to an encounter of EL n+4 (3.0 DMG, in a table that was dropped from 3.5 when the rest of the section was kept verbatim).
If party size is halved, drop the expected EL by 2 for each halving (against large groups, this is the same as halving the number of monsters).

So if you halve the party size twice, to one person, you get PL of n-4, going 50-50 against EL n.

If you want to think about it in a play situation, you could imagine an encounter that's supposed to wipe your party 50% of the time, where you're pulling one of the monsters off. You're expected to be a microcosm of the party (50% chance of death) if you pick a monster randomly. For the traps, you got separated somehow (cave-ins are popular, I hear.). Alternately, you can play these in the 50-50 wipe range (EL = PL is supposed to be 20% resource expenditure, which is difficult to quantify, so we don't), with a party of four same-classed characters. If you do that, though, the CR 5 challenges are supposed to be tried by 2nd level characters. Really.

Your SGT values are off:
The Animated Statue has Hardness 10. An average damage value of 10 means that half of your attacks do nothing at all.

Manticore: You already picked your ancestral weapon. Also, melee characters with no abilities on their ranged weapons (like this build). . . kinda suck in ranged combat.

Mummy: You're soloing it because it's equivalent to a character of your level. It's closer to a cleric than your character is, but it's still labeled as "equivalent."

Traps and Pits: You have what you brought with. To do the challenge fairly, you need to decide how to allocate your resources before the challenges.

The tag teams are lower level than you, except for the cleric, who gets the Zombies as a class feature.

--
At level 15, 19 damage per turn is seriously weaksauce.

Seriously:
You're level 15, in a party, fighting a level-appropriate encounter which includes an Iron Golem. You're sent to distract the golem while the rest of the party wins the encounter; it's two CRs smaller than you. You're still using a level 1 weapon, which means steel, so you don't get to ignore its damage reduction. That knocks your damage output down to 1d10-1. Your attack bonus is 27/22/17, and I'll pick special abilities to make this encounter easier for you: Corrosive and Screaming, so your optimal power attack, according to this calculator is -4, for 26.32 damage per round.

Since you're using maxed HP (should have 195, by the way, with items), so's the Golem, at 210. Your AC 24 (unless you get your boosters), so the golem hits on a 2 for 22 damage per hit twice, or 41.8 damage per round; it only falls behind if your AC is at least 33. You win initiative. The golem breaks you over its knee at the end of a five-round slugfest.

You're level 15, in a party, fighting a level-appropriate encounter where you happen to get attacked by a Colossal Monstrous Scorpion. They're all busy doing other things (it's a big encounter, and the Scorpion is three CRs smaller than you). You can't even use your Katana once it grapples you, which it does, like, automatically. It breaks you in half and sucks out the pulp.

You're level 15, in a party fighting a level 15 Diabolist and his CR 13 Gelugon minion, along with a horde of lesser devils. You're sent to fight the Gelugon. It can fly and cast Greater Teleport at will. You can't even melee it. It can blast you with Cone of Cold, hold you within Walls of Ice, kill you slowly with Ice Storms, catch you in a mass of illusions, and teleport away when you come into melee with it, not to mention FFear Aura, Devil Summoning, or the fact that it has better reach than you and an on-hit slow. Then you need that +2 on your Katana's special abilities to be Holy, otherwise you can't even hurt the thing.

Seriously, you're losing to things two or three CRs lower than you.

Building a class with the expectation that its party members are going to be necessary for it to fight level-appropriate encounters is a surefire way to build an underpowered class unless the class itself provides buffs to those party members. You can get to other planes of existence without their help through dungeon portals or teleport traps, or even certain monsters.

---
Also, really? You're accusing Frank of not having any good ideas? Go two forums up, and click List of Frank & K Tome threads, click Races of War, and Control-F Samurai.

That's what a Samurai who can compete at high levels looks like. Frank was half of the writing team for that book.

"I hate forcing a role on people" is also useless whining. Before you write a class, you should answer "What does it do?" Why would I build my progression around this class (single-classed or with some on the side)? Why would I dip it? What does it do that other classes don't?

Really, every class can be described, mechanically, in 1-2 sentences, maybe three for the really bloated ones, without referencing other classes, while distinguishing them from them.

Really, the most bloated class in Core looks like this:
Druid: Shapeshifting spellcaster who uses the power of nature for battlefield control and to summon & manipulate plants & animals.

So, what is a Samurai?

For comparison, the RoW fighting classes:
Fighter: Suppresses enemies while grinding for slow damage, with a variety of tricks

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:09 am

Avoraciopoctules wrote:Akula and I are currently conversing via phone. For reference, HERE is the mummy:

We shall defeat this most daunting nemesis. Truly, this will be a terrible battle, and the onlooker will quail at the deadly odds we face. Still, we have faith! Such is our fervent belief in the righteousness of our cause that we are confident we can prevail over not one, but 2 of the dread, bandage-wrapped foe. Stay tuned for details.

Ugh >.> could you start another thread for your bad ass awesome action packed battle. This one is purely for people who want to help with one of the classes I'm trying to flesh out. But to help you out mummies are indigenous to Egypt that you might be able to break into a museum and go toe to bandaged foot against one there.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:11 am

You asked for "I want to see this," so you get to see it.

We already have discussion of your classes: Specifically, that they would benefit from starting over at the drawing board. That the Tome Samurai can fight Mummies is relevant to it.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:14 am

Well, the Tome Samurai has scored Kiai by level 5. A few times a day, he can crit something he hits.

He also gets some help with those pesky crowds, what with Hordebreaker (Get more AoO's) and Whirlwind Attack.

If it's one-on-one in melee and can take a critical hit, the Samurai can drop it fairly quickly.

If it's part of a group or it's ranged combat, the Samurai is in more trouble.

And he just can't afford to get in a slugfest with something larger than he is. Remember: d8 HP, only middling AC. The Samurai is something of a glass cannon. If he can't drop it quickly, it could possibly drop him. So, offhand, at level 5, he's having trouble against the undead, elementals, and constructs, with the groups being more dicey but manageable. But against the other challenges, he can have something to do that'll help. Cutting it in half is a general favorite.

imperialspectre · Post by **imperialspectre** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:17 am

4) What in the name of Jesus the multi-middle named Christ do you mean I don't get a fudging team?! Maybe for the cleric I can understand (summons and all) but at least he'll need the round to summon them (the surprise round should put him near death and most likely I'll be moving before him on the first round). However, facing two centaur, ambushing you, alone, in the woods? There has got to be a CR modifier for unfavorable conditions somewhere in there.

The CR system is pretty simple. A 4-person party of a given level is supposed to have a roughly 50% shot at beating a CR +4 monster. If you're using a single character, you're effectively at -4 effective level compared to a 4-person party. So, a balanced character should win roughly half the time against a range of monsters with CR equal to the character's level.

You don't get a team because if you have a cleric or a wizard in the party (let alone both), they're perfectly capable of dragging a Samurai around and succeeding anyway. The only way to determine if your Samurai class is worth anything is by running it solo against a range of even-CR encounters.

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:28 am

Strategy 1: The iconic samurai, Bandy Humaido (Strongheart Halfling), and his trusty sling pummel his foes with alchemical fire stored in glass orbs. His riding dog carries him to victory!!1

Strategy 2: Bandy charges valorously into melee! Before he does so, he uses a wand of Gravestrike in the weapon chamber in his trusty Small sword (which is really thin and sharp, by the way). This makes his critical hits just a tad more viable.

(Notes (Selected Feats):

Blitz
Combat School
Elusive Target
)

We have something around +15 to hit.

Base damage: 1d6 +2 enhancement, +2 school, + 4 strength (THF), +5 blitz + 1d6 (least augment Truedeath crystal). Most of this is multiplied by 3 due to Kiai.

Assumed AC: 21

EDIT: note that we are not using a pick or scythe.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:11 am

I... what the hell is this supposed to mean?^

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:37 am

First: It absolutely is constructive criticism:

I don't see how telling me what I have is stupid and saying that I should scrap everything I have is constructive criticism. I want the Samurai to fill whatever role the person who starts taking abilities in it can possibly fill with the abilities available. If he or you think that it should fill a particular role then you can help the idea by giving me a list of abilities that meet the rolls you want it to have. I'll take them, make them into a Way and move on from there.

Second: The fighter sucks. That's a proven fact.
I am not gonna dispute this. and that is why this class is under construction...

Third: The test Frank proposed is actually provably sound.
Your character should be able to go into a 50% win rate in a mirror match.

A mirror match for a level n character is CR n
Substituting a CR n monster for another CR n monster should not change the encounter difficulty, unless the replacement specifically exploits weaknesses/has exploitable weaknesses of the character.
A character is underpowered if they have guaranteed-loss level exploitable weaknesses against more than half of the monster manual, and overpowered if they are able to exploit the weaknesses in more than half the monster manual to get guaranteed wins.

I understand this. However encounters with multiple monsters with abilities that complement each other and encounters that have monsters that benefit from the situation should be scaled differently as well. Also he did not mention only monsters...

A character of level n, therefore, can fight a monster of CR n and win half the time. It won't be 50% against each individual monster, of course, but it should be about 50% against the entire book.

This is not true because as the CRs are you are expected to receive a certain amount of magical aid, no matter what the class, to deal with the problems at hand. You just can't generic the ability to take down animated constructs at 5th level. CRs ARE written with a party of adventurers in mind (don't believe me check with Wizards on it). No class is going to be prepared for everything. In fact that isn't even what I'm going for. I'm going for a specialist (more like the Ranger) who can deal damage based on their style preference. Your words are also contradictory. If by your logic any CR N monster A is equal to any CR N monster B yet some classes are underpowered/overpowered wouldn't that mean that CR N monster A )who could be a 5th level fighter) possibly not put up the same challenge against CR N monster B (who could be a huge animated object)?

Alternate proof:
A party of level n (4 level n characters) is expected to lose half the time to an encounter of EL n+4 (3.0 DMG, in a table that was dropped from 3.5 when the rest of the section was kept verbatim).
If party size is halved, drop the expected EL by 2 for each halving (against large groups, this is the same as halving the number of monsters).

So if you halve the party size twice, to one person, you get PL of n-4, going 50-50 against EL n.

If you want to think about it in a play situation, you could imagine an encounter that's supposed to wipe your party 50% of the time, where you're pulling one of the monsters off. You're expected to be a microcosm of the party (50% chance of death) if you pick a monster randomly. For the traps, you got separated somehow (cave-ins are popular, I hear.). Alternately, you can play these in the 50-50 wipe range (EL = PL is supposed to be 20% resource expenditure, which is difficult to quantify, so we don't), with a party of four same-classed characters. If you do that, though, the CR 5 challenges are supposed to be tried by 2nd level characters. Really.

I've never read/had the 3.0 DMG. I'm not disputing the effectiveness of CR I'm saying that it was written with a party of adventurers in mind, (if i recall it even says so in the 3.5 DMG) and has been mentioned by Wizards.

Your SGT values are off:
The Animated Statue has Hardness 10. An average damage value of 10 means that half of your attacks do nothing at all.

My mistake you are right about that.

Manticore: You already picked your ancestral weapon. Also, melee characters with no abilities on their ranged weapons (like this build). . . kinda suck in ranged combat.

You pick 2. If you want to be prepared you'd probably get a ranged one. You are correct that the damage just wouldn't be as good. This would be an encounter that preyed upon this class's (or specifically this build's) weakness then would it not?

Mummy: You're soloing it because it's equivalent to a character of your level. It's closer to a cleric than your character is, but it's still labeled as "equivalent."

Mummy's are generally tough enemies. I have never run into one in a place where I could easily escape or under anything better than unfavorable conditions. Unfavorable circumstances aside, I'd hardly expect any class short of a caster with abilities and spells selected for the challenge to just walk in on this thing and fight it evenly at 5th level.

Traps and Pits: You have what you brought with. To do the challenge fairly, you need to decide how to allocate your resources before the challenges.

I am sure this is another poke at the rogue comment. But, ok I'll admit it, (though it should be obvious) this class is not trap savvy. I'm sorry that this fighter cannot find/disable traps and unlock doors with his sword.

The tag teams are lower level than you, except for the cleric, who gets the Zombies as a class feature.

Individually they are lower but as an encounter together they are CR5 total. Neither mentioned, The Allip/Howler or the Centaur ambush would be easy, or even doable by ANY character on their own at 5th level. The Zombie hording Cleric is understandable but I think the Samurai as is could take it

--

You're level 15, in a party fighting a level 15 Diabolist and his CR 13 Gelugon minion, along with a horde of lesser devils. You're sent to fight the Gelugon. It can fly and cast Greater Teleport at will. You can't even melee it. It can blast you with Cone of Cold, hold you within Walls of Ice, kill you slowly with Ice Storms, catch you in a mass of illusions, and teleport away when you come into melee with it, not to mention FFear Aura, Devil Summoning, or the fact that it has better reach than you and an on-hit slow. Then you need that +2 on your Katana's special abilities to be Holy, otherwise you can't even hurt the thing.

Seriously, you're losing to things two or three CRs lower than you.

Building a class with the expectation that its party members are going to be necessary for it to fight level-appropriate encounters is a surefire way to build an underpowered class unless the class itself provides buffs to those party members. You can get to other planes of existence without their help through dungeon portals or teleport traps, or even certain monsters.

Ok, here goes the big cop out. The class isn't done... I know I've said it before but my apologies know no end to those who come to this thread expecting a finished work of art. So I shall say to all who want to tell me "your class is behind", "it isn't level appropriate", "these things can kill it in this way cause your class doesn't have a contingency for everything", etc, etc, This is a work in progress... IF you don't like it I can understand. It's not done. It is under construction. IF you don't like something GIVE AN ALTERNATIVE!. Otherwise the class will stay static and more and more time and space is wasted without any real improvement because you stopped in, said the prototype is crap and left it alone.

And its strange that in your hypothetical situations where the samurai is off on its lonesome the rest of the party gets to work together for the happy ending while the samurai becomes the smack toy.

Situation: Why don't I just go straight for the Diabolist or something I CAN fight instead of going after its minion that has every advantage over my abilities? I mean seeing as though I'm probably going first and the Diabolist probably has crap for hp If I have ANY kind of halfway descent (level appropriate) free or swift action teleport item the Diabolist will be dead while the party is off happy ending his minions. Considering the style of combat I posted as the example I'd imagine mysterious smack toy samurai would have one. Bonus points if you explain how I could have gotten this far into any campaign (even in a one shot the DM will tell you what kind of shit you're fighting) and fight demons without being completely geared and set for fighting them.

Now I really don't want to people to spend too much time coming up with hypothetical situations that can screw over the example build. I know they exist. If you feel the need to give an example like the one above, feel free to introduce tweaks that would help it out.

---

Also, really? You're accusing Frank of not having any good ideas? Go two forums up, and click List of Frank & K Tome threads, click Races of War, and Control-F Samurai.

That's what a Samurai who can compete at high levels looks like. Frank was half of the writing team for that book.

"I hate forcing a role on people" is also useless whining. Before you write a class, you should answer "What does it do?" Why would I build my progression around this class (single-classed or with some on the side)? Why would I dip it? What does it do that other classes don't?

Really, every class can be described, mechanically, in 1-2 sentences, maybe three for the really bloated ones, without referencing other classes, while distinguishing them from them.

Really, the most bloated class in Core looks like this:
Druid: Shapeshifting spellcaster who uses the power of nature for battlefield control and to summon & manipulate plants & animals.

So, what is a Samurai?

For comparison, the RoW fighting classes:
Fighter: Suppresses enemies while grinding for slow damage, with a variety of tricks

Yes I really accused him of not having any ideas. Why? He didn't present any. Sure he may have HAD ideas but that doesn't pertain to this class at in this thread. Saying I don't want to force a role on someone isn't whining. It was whining when I griped about 4e which did. It is a goal here. My GOAL is to have a fighting class that can be built around doing different things. If i had to capture the essence of it in two or three sentences for the future it would read:

Samurai: A disciplined warrior who practices one of several unique, traditional, martial arts and who bonds utilizes Ancestral weapons in conjunction with their art to topple their enemies.

Yes I have read a number of the Tomes (all the way through the Dungeonomicon) and I find them VERY interesting. I think that they should have a book on store shelves for some of the interesting ideas I've seen in there (Though I did not know/care who wrote it) In fact It was through a link that someone gave me the first time I vested interest in making classes that led me to this board in the first place.It was a link to the Dungeonomicon. I also saw them again on D&D Wiki. This does not mean I'm going to agree with everything they say nor does it help me if people who write such deep and interesting essays go in a different direction with their class design and have no ideas that would help my style.

PS: Do you have any ideas of your own?

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:53 am

MGuy wrote:I... what the hell is this supposed to mean?^

Two ways of fairly reliably beating 2 Mummies with a not-extremely-optimized Tome Samurai 5.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:38 am

Your style isn't any good. You can fix this problem by starting over. The alternative to your class is to decide what you want your class to do, and build a class to do that. You can add alternate class features to do things in different ways later. For now, try to do one solid thing.

This is not true because as the CRs are you are expected to receive a certain amount of magical aid, no matter what the class, to deal with the problems at hand.

Really? Everyone is supposed to get magical aid (outside of abilities and items) to fight a same-leveled creature? Everyone? Even the Cleric and Wizard? Where are they getting aid from?

I am not gonna dispute this. and that is why this class is under construction...

You're doing it wrong. The fighter doesn't suck because their numbers aren't big enough, or their abilities are weak at what they do, or whatever, the fighter sucks because its fundamental design is bad.

I'm sorry that this fighter cannot find/disable traps and unlock doors with his sword.

No need to sarrcastically apologize. If you lose half of them, you're good. If the half that you lose are all of the traps and so on, then that means that you have to be a little better against monsters to make up for it (if 10% of all encounters are traps, where you lose all the time, and 90% are monsters, where you lose 4/9 of the time, then you're actually balanced)

And its strange that in your hypothetical situations where the samurai is off on its lonesome the rest of the party gets to work together

That's because those are Same Game Test environments. The rest of the group might be split up, too.

Why don't I just go straight for the Diabolist or something I CAN fight instead of going after its minion that has every advantage over my abilities? I mean seeing as though I'm probably going first and the Diabolist probably has crap for hp If I have ANY kind of halfway descent (level appropriate) free or swift action teleport item the Diabolist will be dead while the party is off happy ending his minions.

There are a few things wrong with this:
1: The Gelugon example was provided for contrast with the Scorpion and Iron Golem, which are pure melee brutes. If you can't fight a pure melee brute and you can't fight a Gish monster, you can't fight anything.

2: You also expected a level 15 appropriate free-action teleport item on a 30k GP budget after everything else. In the SRD, that means you have a Cape of the Mountebank. That's once per day, hope you don't use it on an illusion. It also eats up your round, hope you don't die when you just teleported into a caster's face and then gave them a turn to save themself

3: Even without HP, a level 15 Wizard probably has defenses relevant to you like:
Contingencied Mirror Image or Dimension Door or something
Cloak of Displacement
Stoneskin (aka Your Puny Steel will not cut my magic body)
Overland Flight (aka You can't even get close to me without flying)
Arcane Sight (trumps stealth if you even think about using it)
Simulacra (Which one's real? A few of them are only level 9)

To say nothing of non-core effects like Anticipate Teleport, or full-casting prestige class abilities.

Also, you need that teleportation to be able to contribute to the fight after being put in a Resilent Sphere (Seriously, your Reflex save is on the order of +5, you're going to get caught) or Forcecage. If it's one use, you teleport up to the guy, he puts you in a box, and then the battle continues without the Samurai. Seriously, you do better, not worse, against a Gelugon than against a level 15 wizard.

Samurai: A disciplined warrior who practices one of several unique, traditional, martial arts and who bonds utilizes Ancestral weapons in conjunction with their art to topple their enemies.

That's not a mechanical description. That's flavor.

The Tome Samurai looks more like:
Samurai: A melee combatant reliant on critical strikes and opportunity attacks, but is vulnerable to anything that can survive his onslaught

As opposed to the defensive Knight and Fighter, and the balanced Barbarian.

You didn't describe anything about how your abilities work.

If you want my advice for how to fix it:
First, rip out everything you already have and simplify it. Having a lot of options seems cool, but if you put three options for each ability in the class, then you've tripled the amount you need to write and the amount people need to read for your class and not really gotten any benefit for any specific character. Don't build your class as a blank slate onto which you pile a bunch of options, that just makes things harder on everyone. Blank slate classes are actually really hard to design, it's easier to just expect people who don't want to be pigeonholed to multiclass (they will anyway).

The ability "I can buy magic weapons at full price anywhere" can stay. It's actually not an ability anyway. Give them some nice things to go with it, and then you can call it an ability.

Second, pick a style for the class. In Tome, a big part of this is a slider: how many rounds does it take to decide the battle? Offense classes have this slider set short, while defense classes have it longer. Note that all of the good classes in Core (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) are Offense classes, and most monsters are Offense-oriented, so a Defense character needs to be able to ignore and negate the actions of monsters in order to be balanced.

Let's say you want this to be more an offense than defense class, that goes through its opponents HP quickly. You're talking up their damage numbers even though they're actually quite piddly.

Now, you'll note that the defense Tome classes have their offense left at about the level of the Core fighter, while the offense classes all have something to crank it up (Rage Dice, Sneak Attack, Death Attack, Kiai!). This is intentional. The core fighter, barring certain builds (Uberchargers, for instance) has very little offense to speak of. Or defense, for that matter.

So, now you need to crank up the offense. I'll leave you to decide how to do that.

Now, what shuts them down? Try a few tests against level-appropriate monsters played tactically, and see what gimmicks you have to pull out to get a 50% win rate. Pick a few of the more thematic abilities, and stick them on the class. Not on one of the class's talent trees, but on the base class. If you find yourself needing to pull out Dimension Door in every fight to stay relevant (no save against Forcecage), give them Abundant Step. Phase Spiders are easy to beat if you can just go Ethereal.

Look at the Monk and Complete Adventurer Ninja. Those classes suck, but you can plunder them for abilities that you can make good so that you won't be automatically shut down once you're high level.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:47 am

Bandy
Strongheart Halfling Samurai 5

Abilities: Str 18 (+2 Item) Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 8 (27 point buy +1 point for 4th level)

HP 33 (23 Class+10 Con)

Saves: Fort +5 [+7] Ref +6 [+8] Will +6 [+8] (+10 [+12] against mind effecting)

Class: Ancestral Really Thin Really Sharp sword +2, Pledge of Loyalty, Kiai! 5/day, Hordebreaker, Whirlwind, Ancestral Guidance.

Feats: Combat School (+2 to hit and damage w/ some weapons), Elusive Target (+2 dodge bonus to AC, no flanking bonuses), Blitz (1d6 on charge if you lose Dex to AC, +BAB damage if you provoke an attack of opportunity)

Items: Cloak of Resistance +2, +1 Chain Shirt, Wand of Gravestrike in a wand chamber, Least Truedeath Augment Crystal, +1 sling, Alchemist Fire sling bullets, Riding Dog, Potion of Protection from Evil x3, Potion of Enlarge Person x2, Belt of Healing, Gloves of Ogre Power +2.

BAB:5 Grapple:5

Attack: +14 (+5 BAB +4 Str +2 Combat School +2 Weapon +1 Size) 1d6+10 (18-20/x3)

AC: 21 [23] (10 Base +5 Armor +3 Dex +2 Dodge +1 Size [+2 PfE])
Flatfooted +18 Touch +16

Round by Round Tactics:
1: Enters Tomb while hiding +12 mod.
2: Spots 2 Mummies +8 (he knows what to look for because he found out the likely occupants from a Q&A with his ancestors) Drinks PfE potion.
3: Bandy charges Mummy #1 activating his wand of Gravestrike. He goes all out and dumps 2 points of BAB for 4 damage while provoking an attack from the Mummy (+11 to hit 21 AC) Bandy attacks at +14 against 20 AC, if he hits (Likely) he spends a use of Kiai! in order to critical. The damage is 1d6+10+5+4*3+1d6 average 70 damage. Mummy #1 goes down on that hit. If it misses we are screwed, but this is CR 7 and we have a 75% chance of landing that hit. Mummy #2 charges Bandy and attacks at +13 vs 21 AC. Worst case has Bandy at 1 HP, but that would be max damage from both attacks. (I'm being very generous to the Mummies and assuming that there is no surprise round; a partial charge will wreck their shit, and they can't do jack about it.)
4: Bandy activates wand of Gravestrike: if it fails he tumbles away (5 feet) and uses his Healing Belt. If it succeeds he then attacks Mummy #2 power attacking for 4. +10 vs 20 AC Kiai! if it hits, damage is 1d6+18*3+1d6 average 66, again enough to drop the Mummy.
5+: Bandy continues to deny his opponent a charge and get Gravestrike up. He Attacks if he has Gravestrike and uses Healing Belt charges if he doesn't. One hit will kill the Mummy.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:08 am

This Bandy is very suboptimal, I would rather have made an archer.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:26 am

Ahh, I see... Well I asked for it I suppose.

First off I have to note the differences between the way you set it up and the way I did. To make it fair my samurai is made for the examples with just his weapon and armor. So it is a bit unfair that in your example he has the necessary equipment (IE: gravestrike wand ad true death augment). You also gets to sneak up on them which I don't think is part of the deal either. I don't know where Combat School, Elusive Target, and Blitz come from. My example just used PHB feats and race. I chose to make the limited choices because I wanted to show what the class without anything but a weapon and armor could do.

Don't Mummies have Damage Reduction?
Doesn't he have to make Will saves vs Despair? (not that I don't think he'd make it but still)
Don't Halflings get a -2 to strength?
Doesn't Brandy wield a short sword(19/20 x2 crit)? If not what exactly is the weapon he's wielding?
Isn't getting autocrits at third level a bit OP?
isn't the weapon only a +1 (5/3 round down) or is there another mechanism that made his go up early?

It would be greatly appreciated if you show this kind of effort in helping me improve one of my classes in the future.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:57 am

The feats are from the same thread as the class, they scale with BAB. This guy gets a lot more hardcore in one level.

The equipment is a reasonable thing for a character that makes criticals a significant part of their offense to have.

This example is nowhere near as good as it could have been. First I would have started out human for a melee character (hafling is fine for an archer) and then I would have gotten a x4 crit weapon. This and a potion of enlarge would have made the charging significantly less dangerous than it is for Bandy.

Gear is always part of power. If you don't consider how a character will use it to shore up weaknesses and augment strengths then you aren't making a fair comparison. It also helps to have everything out in the open, if you know the gear you don't have to make vague claims about it. Never test without gear. You need it to survive.

Yes Mummies have DR. But it is only 5/-. It makes it so that Bandy can't really wear down the foes with small strikes but it can just be blown through with a big enough hit.

Yes. But he was hiding when he saw the Mummies and I just assumed that he continued to hide if he was paralyzed with despair. And it's his best save. .8x.8=.64 chance that he makes both saves.

Yes, they do. Bandy starts with a 17 in Str -2 from race leaves him at 15 +1 at 4th level=16 and the item takes it to 18. But this is a seriously sucky way to go about the character. I could save 13 points and get much more out of the race with a bow.

The one liberty I took was to use a bit of custom content for a community material sword that has stats to make the victory possible. You can find it if you search for Tiger Monk.

Not really. You only have it 3/day at 3rd. Any encounter that has more than one enemy will be difficult to win fast. And with the way that HP scales, you won't be able to kill enemies with just one crit in a very short time; which will limit the amount of autowin you can distribute again.

Tome magic items round up. I took that as the default assumption, it makes victory more difficult but still not impossible with a +1 weapon. You need 61 damage from one attack to drop a Mummy.

There are better questions you didn't ask though.

1. Why didn't Mummy #2 grapple your ass?
2. What about the Mummy Rot?
3. You should have tripped the second Mummy, you had the Edge and it would have set up a charge.

1a. Because I wanted to keep things simple, the grapple would have favored the Mummy, but it wouldn't break Bandy. So I didn't want to look down that road.
2a. Yes, I could have killed the monster to die to the Disease. But I wouldn't kill me until after the combat, and I could have made a mad dash for the Cleric after killing the Mummies.
3a. I just didn't think of it. Sue me.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:13 am

Ok

Agreed. I was just noting that my character didn't have it.

Agreed but I appreciate you not going all munchkin on it.

Agreed and I should probably start doing that testing with gear thing >.<.

I know the hiding thing wasn't a big deal for me and the saves were even less so, just noting the differences.

Ok

True but at low levels a crit to the big boss (especially with some of the stuff this tome thing gives you) seems devastating at low levels. I think I would at least not put the +2 bit in there so that you would get the ability only 2 times a day at fifth (5/2 which i think would provoke even more judicious use in it). What concerns me most is not the player having such an ability but a bad guy having it and using it on a player. Flavor wise its fucking cool though. Two samurai line up, whoever is fastest wins.

Ok

Questions I didn't ask:
1: I thought your thin blade of whatever a ma jig was a light weapon
2: Abilities like diseases don't ever really concern me much in battle
3: What is edge?

More questions! What is Tome exactly?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:38 am

If you want my advice for how to fix it:
First, rip out everything you already have and simplify it. Having a lot of options seems cool, but if you put three options for each ability in the class, then you've tripled the amount you need to write and the amount people need to read for your class and not really gotten any benefit for any specific character. Don't build your class as a blank slate onto which you pile a bunch of options, that just makes things harder on everyone. Blank slate classes are actually really hard to design, it's easier to just expect people who don't want to be pigeonholed to multiclass (they will anyway).

The ability "I can buy magic weapons at full price anywhere" can stay. It's actually not an ability anyway. Give them some nice things to go with it, and then you can call it an ability.

Second, pick a style for the class. In Tome, a big part of this is a slider: how many rounds does it take to decide the battle? Offense classes have this slider set short, while defense classes have it longer. Note that all of the good classes in Core (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) are Offense classes, and most monsters are Offense-oriented, so a Defense character needs to be able to ignore and negate the actions of monsters in order to be balanced.

Let's say you want this to be more an offense than defense class, that goes through its opponents HP quickly. You're talking up their damage numbers even though they're actually quite piddly.

Now, you'll note that the defense Tome classes have their offense left at about the level of the Core fighter, while the offense classes all have something to crank it up (Rage Dice, Sneak Attack, Death Attack, Kiai!). This is intentional. The core fighter, barring certain builds (Uberchargers, for instance) has very little offense to speak of. Or defense, for that matter.

So, now you need to crank up the offense. I'll leave you to decide how to do that.

Now, what shuts them down? Try a few tests against level-appropriate monsters played tactically, and see what gimmicks you have to pull out to get a 50% win rate. Pick a few of the more thematic abilities, and stick them on the class. Not on one of the class's talent trees, but on the base class. If you find yourself needing to pull out Dimension Door in every fight to stay relevant (no save against Forcecage), give them Abundant Step. Phase Spiders are easy to beat if you can just go Ethereal.

Look at the Monk and Complete Adventurer Ninja. Those classes suck, but you can plunder them for abilities that you can make good so that you won't be automatically shut down once you're high level.

Why can't people just do this in their initial post? This is exactly what I'm looking for after the criticism. Thank you for a detailed and insightful response. I wish I could make a plaque for it and staple it to every post that lacked this. I like it sooo much I'll respond to it first.

From what I am getting you are saying that the class is too bland and needs to be focused on something (something people have already said. I don't know "tome" (or what that stands for. I'm guessing its those things that Frank and K wrote?) and I don't use it though the offensive/defensive slider sounds interesting.

I can say that I'm not going to give up on the styles (talent trees as you call them) They are the original inspiration for me making this class in the first place (along with the overhaul I performed on the Noble). I understand what you mean by saying having more than one train of abilities is harder to balance and more confusing for players. I'm fine with a complaint that says "its too complicated". However following that advice probably would make it easier for me. I'll probably scrap a number of the "talent trees" and sharpen their effectiveness for higher levels and give each one a role to fill. Hopefully by doing that I make the class effective at each thing I aim it at.

I actual have ideas for general abilities all for all samurai that they'd get on levels that they didn't get "Way Of" abilities but I thought it would be giving the class too much. Apparently I'm not giving it enough. So that will be my next fix then.

Now moving on to the more stinging comments.

1) May not be good but its the way I want to go. It was the original idea I had when starting this rig and I want to see how far I can go with it. Without that goal there really isn't a reason for me to complete it. Samurai had combat styles in OA/LotFR that made them good at one style of play over others. That is what I want out of this.

I'm fine if people don't want to help, but I ask those people then to just not bother posting in the thread. If all you have to say are negative things and don't have any original ideas/suggestions to throw on the board then you're not helping the process. If it doesn't work out at the very end I'll scrap the whole project but I'm not gonna stop trying to flesh out this idea just because a few people stop in and say "this sux/is stoopid/etc" without any rational explanation.

2) Magic Gear=Magical aid. Magical Healing=Magical Aid. Casters (avoiding the obvious: use their own magic to aid them response) have gear that enhances their spell casting/defensive/movement abilities.

3) I disagree. Fighters had a very basic design. I don't think the design fundamentals were wrong (in fact I'm not even sure what you mean by that) but that it is indeed that they're numbers didn't get big enough. IE they didn't get enough stuff (class abilities).

4) Oh no please do accept my sarcastic apology ^.^. And sincerely thank you for actually giving an explanation for why you brought it up (the trap thing) in the first place.

5) Same Game Test Environments? (does not know what that means/is) Though the second is understandable.

6)A: I have to give a nod there this class can't hold its own at higher levels yet.
B:I believe there are boots that give short distance teleport without such I high price tag. If not Just have neighborhood wizard craft some limited/day sandals of dimension door (samurai sandals of course).
C: Lets not get into the assload of tricks a wizard can pull to escape death. Though yes the misstep would cost him his life at high levels like that.

7) Considering the class is aimed at different ways to fight that is probably the best description I can give. I can try to think up a better one when its actually done so I'm not too concerned about it.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:47 am

1: As a small sized weapon I'm pretty sure it can be used two handed by a small sized character. Again, I could be wrong; would mean that I have to find another x3 crit weapon.

2: With a 1 minute incubation period Mummy Rot should concern you in battle. It can wreck you before you can get to a place of safety.

3: Basically the Tomes simplified special actions. Instead of cluttering up the rules with feats to make them better the Edge was put in place. Very simply, the best fighter can screw with the other guy without provoking AoOs and has some bonuses. It runs off of BAB normally, but feats can make other things give the Edge.

The Tomes are what we call the compiled F&K threads. They rebuild D&D into a game that most of us think is better. You have likely read some of them. In no real order:

Tome of Necromancy
Tome of Fiends
Dungeonomicon
Races of War
Book of Gears

There were going to be more, but work has been indefinitely delayed on them. The Book of Gears is unfinished. You might note all of the [tome of virtue], [tome of trees], and [tome of tiamat] threads. Those are the ones that never got started. TGD is working on producing the content ourselves in lieu of F&K.

Akula · Post by **Akula** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:56 am

The complaint about talent trees isn't that they are hard for the player. It's that they are hard for YOU. You have to make 3 or 4 classes that are really just one class, and that is a lot of work. At that point you might have just made 4 classes and probably had less headache about it.

Same Game Test is just having the character go up against 10 challenges of CR=ECL. The class should have a win most of the time in half of these challenges. If it gets shut down by too many of them, you will know that it doesn't have the right abilities to keep up.

The fighter sucks because there is a whole lot of powerful stuff in the game environment that has equally powerful counters...and the fighter gets access to NONE of it. I can go into detail if you want.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:04 am

Mguy wrote:Why can't people just do this in their initial post? This is exactly what I'm looking for after the criticism. Thank you for a detailed and insightful response. I wish I could make a plaque for it and staple it to every post that lacked this. I like it sooo much I'll respond to it first.

Honestly? Get the fuck off your high horse. The fact that you don't understand things is your problem, not ours. Normally I'm willing to help people who don't understand stuff, but you're a monstrous dick about receiving help.

I'm totally done even trying to help you. Your classes are shit, and you're a prick about being shown how to identify the weaknesses of your shitty classes. No. You fucking don't get to append little "do better next time" stamps to feedback that you don't like. You made the shitty classes, you do a better job next time!

-Username17

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:05 am

Please do. In fact you can instant message me if you have yahoo so that we don't have to have a conversation by post. PM me if you're intersted.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:19 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Mguy wrote:Why can't people just do this in their initial post? This is exactly what I'm looking for after the criticism. Thank you for a detailed and insightful response. I wish I could make a plaque for it and staple it to every post that lacked this. I like it sooo much I'll respond to it first.
Honestly? Get the fuck off your high horse. The fact that you don't understand things is your problem, not ours. Normally I'm willing to help people who don't understand stuff, but you're a monstrous dick about receiving help.

I'm totally done even trying to help you. Your classes are shit, and you're a prick about being shown how to identify the weaknesses of your shitty classes. No. You fucking don't get to append little "do better next time" stamps to feedback that you don't like. You made the shitty classes, you do a better job next time!

-Username17

High horse? What do you mean? How is asking people to back up their statements with reasoning being a prick? I mean despite having said it politely multiple times I still get people with comments like the one you just put here. I am fine with you not helping me.

I'm confused about your assumption that I am claiming my not understanding is someone else's fault. I haven't even implied anything like that and I don't ask people to "do better next time" I am asking people to "please explain" next time. I am reading people's words not their mind. I can't read everyone's mental math here and I'd simply prefer people who post here to tell me how they came to that conclusion. So please can there be no more comments like this one? If you don't like to explain yourself that's. This thread isn't about whether you like to explain yourself. It is about constructive criticism and suggestions/alternatives to what is here.

I'm sorry to lose your help Frank.

Side question: Why are you getting inflamed over me thanking someone else who actually did what I asked for 2 pages ago? (S)He's not even the first person I thanked for that.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:43 am

As an extra note, I should probably thank everyone who has contributed something to this process (IE explained themselves)
Thank you:
Ubernoob
PoliteNewb
Leress
IGTN
Akula
CatharzGodfoot
Avoraciopoctules
Maxus
Imperialspectre

For taking the time to actually tell me why you said things didn't work out. I hope that people who post here don't misunderstand why I respond to each and every comment (at least each and every one that I can). The reason I do is to explain what I think and why. Please do not mistake this as me telling you "you're wrong, come back later". Just as I ask for you to give your reasoning I want you to know my reasoning.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:00 pm

Will be overhauling the Samurai class so postpone your comments on it please.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:17 pm

So I looked at this. I saw the comparisons to Paizo and knew immediately it would be terrible. I checked to be sure, and sure enough it was a total joke. I was about to ask if I was missing anything but...

ubernoob wrote:These classes are absolutely terrible. Throw the whole thing out, give us fluff you're trying to match, and we'll work from there.

Apparently not.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:22 pm

Oh no, the trolls have arrived!