TNE: To Tier or Not, and Mass Combat and Setting

[Korwin]

I think one of the appeals of tiers and scaling and farm production and all that crap is the idea that you could zoom in and out of the action in the game world.

I can't imagine that I'm the only one that occassionally wants to play SimCity or Civilization in the context of D&D. Sometimes you want to play the build up your fief minigame, and then you can zoom into the adventure minigame when you go clear the Bugbear tribes out of your woods. Sure, you can DM fiat this, but that's just MTP and unsatisfying. You want the fact that you claimed the copper mines in the hills in your last adventure to mean something tangible to your estate. You also want it to be consistent regardless of who controls the mines (unlike MTP where the DM's fuck target wins).

Then, when you go to war with the neigboring Hobgoblin empire over your copper mines, you know that you can consript 500 soldiers from your lands and you want to command your troops in battle and have that be meaningful. Maybe this game plays something akin to WFB. Though the reason you don't simply do that is that there's no real way to translate your character into that system.

Again, I know that you can simply Tea Party a lot of this stuff, but I can't help but occassionally wish it was supported by the system. It's the same sort of frustration you get in video games where you have high explosives and rail cannons, yet you're still mucking around in the sewers looking for the fucking blue key.

+1

[NativeJovian]

While all of that is true, it doesn't really have anything to do with the tier system. What you're talking about is effectively turning it from a tactical game ("if I move five feet to the left, I can cast a fireball at the bugbear without getting stabbed by the orc") to a strategic game ("if I capture the iron mines, I can produce gear for 500 more soldiers per month"). The tier system is about stabbing goblins in the face vs. stabbing gods in the face, not about stabbing goblins in the face vs. sending in your army to stab the goblin army in the face.

I agree that adding a strategy level to the game would be awesome (the PCs clear the balor out of the mithral mine and then get to equip their army with mithral gear), but that doesn't change the fact that someone in the non-combat tier dies horribly to anyone with a sharp stick and the wherewithal to use it.

Worse, since the tier system is based entirely on combat effectiveness, it doesn't matter if your non-combat tier character is a dirt farmer planting wheat or a noble dwarf smith of the legendary land of Muspellheim who crafted the legendary Mjolnir; since they both die if they're stabbed in the face with a sharp stick, they both count as the non-combat tier.

[Username17]

While all of that is true, it doesn't really have anything to do with the tier system.

It most certainly does. The tier system isn't specifically or most importantly about making sure that everyone has the same numbers on their character sheet. Indeed, for things that you want divided between PCs the numbers are going to be off the scale within and probably between every tier. The mythic tier sword monk is probably not going to have a computer skill modifier that can compete with the civilian tier electronics repairman's. It's about dividing up abilities such that people are playing the same game.

At the point where you start playing Sim City, it's important for everyone to have abilities that affect the Sim City game. If only one character has abilities that function in the Mayor Tier, everyone else is effectively dead every time you scale out to that point of view. So yeah, it's totally possible, even desirable for individual characters to exist simultaneously in multiple tiers and to use their abilities from the tier that is being interacted with at any given moment.

-Username17

[NativeJovian]

So yeah, it's totally possible, even desirable for individual characters to exist simultaneously in multiple tiers and to use their abilities from the tier that is being interacted with at any given moment.

Wait, what? I thought the whole point of the tier system was to match everyone's power level, so the grizzled man-at-arms who hits things with a sword isn't completely blown out of the water by the wizard calling down lightning and hurling fireballs with the power of his mind. By that definition, it's impossible to be in more than one tier, because you're either hitting goblins with a sword or you're destroying planets through sheer will. If you can be on multiple tiers simultaneously, then how does that work?

It's true that a mythic tier swordsman doesn't necessarily know how to make his own shoes, but a civilian tier craftsman might. But if the tiers are vertical rather than horizontal (ie, mythic tier is just BETTER than mundane tier, rather than them simply having different focuses), then the mythic swordsman doesn't CARE about his shoes. He could probably walk barefoot across lava because he's just that awesome. And if the tiers are horizontal rather than vertical (ie, a Supreme Cobbler is just as awesome as a Mythic Swordsman), then I've just completely misunderstood the entire concept and am very very confused.

Either way, my original point is that I don't think explicit mechanics for a "civilian" tier are necessary. Whether a guy is the village blacksmith or Hattori Hanzo, do you need stats for that? Unless you plan to have your players making their own weapons (at which point "village blacksmith" is an appropriate mundane-tier ability and "Hattori Hanzo" is an appropriate mythic-tier character), there's no point in throwing out mechanics for "this guy makes swords better than this other guy" because you can just SAY that.

[MartinHarper]

There should still be character development within a tier. I start off with an Amazon Warrior, in the Heroic tier, and over the course of several adventures I pick up some new skills, a new combat stance, a fancy hat, and a dog called Toto. If you want all heroic tier characters to be at the same power level with the same number of options, then this needs to be done through retraining, I guess.

[schpeelah]

If you can be on multiple tiers simultaneously, then how does that work?

Look at the first posts. They include the idea of a "no super magic" zone, separate from a mountain-blowing zone. So the mythic swordsman can't handle 20 guards while in a merchant city.

[violence in the media]

I think the idea, if you combine the tier idea with what I was talking about, is that you'd have characters that function differently depending on the scale.

Let's pretend that we have 3 Zoom levels:
Individual--The level that D&D is generally played on currently.
Estate--The level where players are managing their castles and surrounding lands. This would also include small skirmish battles.
Kingdom--The level involves management of a kingdom and its armies. Founding, growing, and capturing cities and regions. War is conducted at this level.

So, you have your civilian tier shoemaker and your adventurer tier fighter.

In the Individual Zoom, the shoemaker runs his shop and the fighter kills monsters. At higher levels, the shoemaker might become a master artisan and get the ability to make magic boots or be a guildmaster. The fighter becomes a reknowned hero and probably gets knighted or appointed sheriff or something.

Now they both gain abilities for the Estate Zoom. The shoemaker can expand the guild and take on apprentices, increase the importance of the town he's in, direct guild resources, and so on. Having him might boost the resources of your newly-deeded fief. The fighter now builds a stronghold, collects taxes, and trains militia.

On the Kingdom Zoom, I'm not really sure what the shoemaker would be doing. But he's probably an NPC, so maybe having him in your capital grants a bonus to movement for your army, due to their comfortable footwear. At this level, the fighter might be serving as a general on a campaign against the southern dwarves or deciding to fund technological advancement. Maybe he decides to have the army build roads to give tangible bonuses to the kingdom.

Now, maybe the civilian/adventurer tier divide just serves as the yardstick for combat capability and most PCs have levels in both areas. I don't know. Hell, I'm not even sure how you'd work this whole idea with 20th level D&D spellcasters. But the idea that you have people that can bring abilities to the table that are valuable in some capacity, and yet not something that a PC would typically invest in, is a good one.

Now, NativeJovian, I know you're probably going to nitpick this, as you're coming across as a MTP advocate, but I want to know if you can at least see the idea I'm trying to get across.