Anatomy of Failed Design: Treasure Parcels

[shadzar]

1) Item slots are focused: From the first presentation in the PHB the item slots are supposed to remain focus on a certain kind of effect. Boots do MOVEMENT stuff. If you want bonus strength that is on "Belts" etc.

Yeah that is another big pile of stupid shit in 4th.

What fucking wizard goes to Fashion Week in NY, NY to find out where an item should go?

They didn't have weight belts. They didn't know about lumbar support, slipped discs or hernias.

Why would they place STR affecting items, within the game world, on a friggin belt? And why can someone not place the enchantment somewhere else?

Talk about being arbitrary for the sake of being arbitrary.

The reason is one-fold, and for the game mechanics, which totally breaks down SoD within the game itself.

You can clearly see the game rules bleeding through when you have these "focused" item slots.

With magic being with the motion of the hands, then what would be the first thing I would devise to aid in casting? Gloves, not some headband.

Feet may sound like a good place for movement items, but how many people want wigs on their feet rather than their back? Why not the ability to fly that makes sense? Why not gloves for moving, when you aren't going horizontally?

The whole slot focus is just stupid outside of the mechanics when you look at the world from the inside out.

It really removes so much creative control that it baffles the mind what people in the game world really would think, to be able to relate to them.

[Psychic Robot]

shadzar, are you going to respond to my post or not? 'Cause if you're not, you can just go back on ignore.

[Lago PARANOIA]

souran:

I don't care about the first one at all at least for the purposes of this thread. That's an issue with the magic item system, not with the magic item accumulation system.

For the second one, they may have wanted to go for that but if so the treasure parcels don't advance an inch in that direction. The magic item accumulation system really does assume that you'll throw away your old magic sword and armor repeatedly; when you upgrade from a +4 to a +5 suit of armor, the moneys you get for selling the +4 can't buy you jack shit. I mean, assuming that you're at the exact breakpoint for the magic item you can only afford a magic item ten levels lower than you.

The 4E treasure parcel system hands out about enough swag so that everyone can get a magic armor, magic weapon/implement, and neck slot item. But if you're replacing your magic items every five levels while the party is supposed to have five people in it and you only get four items a level, you're mostly going to end up with a pile of swords/armors/neck slot items with very rarely some boots or whatever.

Considering that the DMG recommends that players make lists of items they want and give them to the DM and that the DM should basically use these and his best judgement to put magic items in the treasure pile, I think that calling this a design goal is sketchy.

This shouldn't have been a separate design goal; it's just an rewording of the 'DM decides what players should get as much as possible' goal.

Same for monster looting.

Monster and scenery looting didn't really break the game in 3E due to the wealth-by-level system unless you managed to come across something truly obscene, like mining the elemental planes. The biggest problem is that is broke immersion. Not the strip-mining palaces and setting the frames on fire part--that shit was awesome. No, the problem was that after you strip-mined the palace and set the frames on fire the DM would be forced to send armies of beggars after you for a suspension of disbelief-breaking period of time.

But I don't find the whole 'things you kill never have anything valuable on them. Ever.' paradigm that 4E uses any better. In fact, it's even worse as far as maintaining believability.

Anyway, the system is not great. However, I would put more onus on those who didn't follow their own design rules about what was going to do what and therefore broke the system to nothingness rather than on some of the design goals themselves.

The only way those design goals could have possibly been workable is if they scuttled the idea of PCs being able to buy or sell anything and having the DM select any and everything. It's needlessly tyrannical and heavy-handed, but at least it doesn't break the game.

[Josh_Kablack]

Items are divided by item slot, much like they were in D&D 3.5 (though it took until Magic Item Compendium for the system to be quantified clearly). As before, you can only wear one item in each slot. The number of slots has been reduced (by combining slots that were similar), to keep the number of items manageable and easy to remem-ber. You still have a ton of choices for items in the game, and when we were still using more slots, our playtesters reported that it caused information overload.

Here're the 4e slots as they actually stand in the rules as written

1. Melee 1 (primary hand)
2. Melee 2 (off hand)
3. Ranged 1 (arguably two slots, some characters have secondary ranged weapons)
4. Implement 1
5. Implement 2 (there are multiple rules and feats keyed to wielding multiple implements, that makes this 2 slots)
6. Armor
7. Neck
8. Arms/Shield
9. Head
10. Feet
11. Ring1
12. Ring2
13. Waist
14. Mount - your mount costs gold, provides a benefit and you can only ride one at a time - that makes it a slot. And whetehr you have "horse" or an otherwise unslotted item like the various figurines of wonderous movement cheese.
15. Mount Slot - the item your horse or ebony fly itself wears
16. Companion Slot - the item yogi wears before you cut his head off to wear as a hat
17. Unslotted items - wonderous items, potions, consumables, etc.

Maybe they should have actually acted on the advice their playtesters gave them.

[K]

But as far as having a backpack filled with a magic carpet, a retractable grappling hook, a ring of invisibility, and a cloak of the bat? While having an enchanted booze-filled water fountain supplying my Valhalla-horn summoned pirates with booze so they can fire the delayed blast fireball and magic missile magical cannons on my golden airship? I love that shit. Bring on the bling, baby.

4E took all of the things I hated about 3E's magical items and amped them up while killing all of the things I loved about 3E's magical items.

I guess it's taken me a long time to figure out that 4e took all the things things I enjoyed about 3e, 2e, and even 1e and pissed them down the drain in their efforts to replicate computer RPGs.

I mean, the amount of attachment I have to a sword +1 vs a sword +2 is minimal, but if someone stole my Rug of Flying and tried to give me Cloak of the Bat I'd definitely feel it. My whole character interacts with the RP parts of the world in a hugely different way than if you swapped out my swords.

And that goes double for 4e abilities. It saddens me greatly that a 30th level Wizard in 4e does fewer things to interact with the RP world than a well-built 3e Wizard at 1st level. I mean, character abilities in 4e feel like "card manipulation" meta-abilities for a CCG and not storytelling tools, and that's the reason every ability in the game might as well just be given a serial number instead of the random mash-up of nouns and verbs they use.

The truly saddest thing is that I could take cards from a CCG like Magic or L5R and make a better RPG without changing anything more than the pocket-sized rulebook that comes with pre-built decks, and get a more flavorful game with better RP hooks.

Ps. Bunnypants? Did I just fail a Knowledge check?

[Psychic Robot]

Rings of invisibility are overpowered. They're clearly an artifact.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Hey, Josh, you're missing a few more.

Holy Symbol (PHB)- Bling you wear as a badge.
One-Shot Ammunition (AV2)- Bling you put into your quiver.
Dragonshard (EPG)- Bling you put into your weapon, like tying a ribbon on your bicycle.
Tattoos (AV2)- Bling you put onto your back.
Battle Standard (AV1)- Bling you put onto a flag.
Ki Focus (PHB3)- Bling that a monk... um... gets when drinking Residuum.
Solitaire (AV1)- Bling that you put into your pocket.
Boons (DMG2)- Bling you put into your soul (seriously).
Soulfangs (D379)- Bling you put into your blood.

Predictions for new bullshit item slots out in the future (serious predictions):
Pauldron Items- Bling you put onto your shoulders.
Hair Ornaments- Bling you put into your hair.
Earrings- Bling you put onto your ears.
Phylactery- Bling you put in your pocket.
Ioun stones will be retconned to being their own free space.
Goggles will be retconned into being their own free space.
Scripts- Bling you put into your short-term memory.
Perfume- Bling that you rub into your skin.
Chakra Focus- Bling that you put into your chakra.
Altar- Bling that protects you if you spend a finite amount of time a day at it.

(Half-)Joking Predictions:
Socks- Bling that compliments your boots.
Girdle- Bling that compliments your waist slot item.
Magic Underpants- Bling that protects your genitals.
Dentures- Bling that you put into your mouth.
Genital Piercings- Bling that you put onto your junk.
Suppositories- Bling that you stick into your rectum.

[shadzar]

Nipple, nose, tongue, and belly rings are missing from that Lago.

[Josh_Kablack]

Holy Symbol (PHB)- Bling you wear as a badge.

I thought that counted against one of the implement slots - although you don't need a hand free to wield a holy symbol. Is it distinct?

[Lago PARANOIA]

I thought that counted against one of the implement slots - although you don't need a hand free to wield a holy symbol. Is it distinct?

Yes. If you're playing a Morninglord Ranger the ability to put a Symbol of Divine Light into your 'Holy Symbol' slot while still getting your full array of other magical items is extremely valuable.

Otherwise, it would really screw paladins. And they're already screwed by being a dual-primary stat class where the two stats don't synergize in the least--at least you can make a good STR/DEX ranger or a STR/WIS razor cleric.

[shadzar]

How many slots do you really need, or should slots matter, and jsut a limit to the number of magic items?

Say 10 magic items, or they start affecting the wearer. Then just use as many at once as you can, even if it means 10 rings.

That is still more than reasonable for game I have played in, as 10 is a LOT.

Then just ignore the slots and just let the magic interference take over for anything over 10 as to where none work properly.

[Starmaker]

(Half-)Joking Predictions:

Dentures- Bling that you put into your mouth.

I bet this will get printed (as magic fangs for FYIADs or lycanthropes).

[Lago PARANOIA]

I'm bumping this thread in the hopes of no longer derailing Frank's thread.

But to re-iterate:

1) There is no standard for how much wealth PCs should be getting. At all. That bullshit statement in the DMG that says 'a great way to get PCs excited is to ask for a list of items' is just that--bullshit. It doesn't say how many items people should be getting or how to split up magical items fairly between PCs since the treasure parcel system intentionally gives unbalanced results.

2) If you want a golden means then just give PCs gold pieces equal to the value of a magical item of their level each level and allow PCs to sell old items at 100%. This puts you very close to what a pregenerated character should get (and honestly, it should go no lower than that if you don't want people suiciding).

3) Did I mention that the treasure parcel system gives unbalanced results? I don't just mean between games, either, I mean between PCs in the party. Go right ahead and award one PC some Iron Armbands of Power at level 2 while making another PC grab some at level 7. I'm sure it won't create hard feelings at all.

[shadzar]

#3....

Which makes all the more sense of making the classes so like ech other to put everyone on "fair-footing" because just as soon as you get your first treasure, you have already broken the balance between players even if they all are of the same class and race; by using the system as-written.

I guess even a pile of manure can be streamlined and balanced for a minute or two, then it still begins to rot unevenly.

[Username17]

The actual text of the book is:

The trickiest part of awarding treasure is determining what magic items to give out. Tailor these items to your party of characters. remember that these are supposed to be items that excite the characters, items they want to use rather than sell or disenchant. If none of the characters in your 6th‑level party uses a longbow, don’t put a 10th‑level longbow in your dungeon as treasure.

A great way to make sure you give players magic items they’ll be excited about is to ask them for wish lists. At the start of each level, have each player write down a list of three to five items that they are intrigued by that are no more than four levels above their own level. You can choose treasure from those lists (making sure to place an item from a different character’s list each time), crossing the items off as the characters find them. If characters don’t find things on their lists, they can purchase or enchant them when they reach sufficient level.

So the actual rules say to make sure that the DM doesn't place items that the players can't use. But it doesn't actually say to place items that the players want. It doesn't say not to either, it just says the DM can place items the players want. Literally the only criteria is to not place items that the PCs couldn't use. They don't say word one about not placing shitty items like Flaming Burst longswords.

Continued:

Each set of ten treasure parcels includes one less magic item than there are characters in the party. That’s not meant to be unfair...

... but it is totally unfair. But you have the designer's word that when they wrote a system in which the players by definition don't get equally valuable loot, that they did not mean for it to be unfair. Which means that we have them admitting that they aren't good at their job.

-Username17

[kjdavies]

Yes, each person has to weave a thread to the magical item to get a benefit. Improving the strength of the thread increased how much benefit you got from the item, up to the item's maximum. Each item also has a maximum number of threads that can be woven to it. I forget what happens when the item is full and another person want to use it though.

Thanks. Roughly translated into D&Dese, I'd have the threads be levels. So at 5th level, you get X amount of enhancement and abilities to your chosen weapon. Etc, etc.

That would be very rough indeed. In Earthdawn you weave the threads to items by reinforcing the item's history. There is a piece of information to be learned, and an act to be duplicated. For instance, to add a weave to a giant-bane weapon you may need to find the name of the giant king whose blood was used in the enchantment, and find and slay one of his descendants. This could be abstracted into levels, but loses a great deal of the flavor Earthdawn tried to impart.

Of course, many might decide that flavor tastes like lose (or a bucket of cock), so trying to match what Earthdawn does may not be to everyone's taste.

On the other hand, if you think this tastes like win (or not-cock), then you could 'have an adventure each level or so' that touches up the item (adds a weave). Tome games largely divorce combat XP from character advancement, so you don't have to fit everything into 40/3 encounters per level, so you get some leeway.

If you can tie multiple items together, especially if they have shared history, you can 'repeat the cycle of heroes' that came before. An incursion of giants is coming? Find the arms and harness of the heroes who defeated them centuries ago and return them to power to (and by) defeat(ing) the giants that come this time... and centuries from now, a new generation of heroes shall arise to take up what are now *your* mighty arms to hold off the encroaching tide of giantness.

(yeah, went weak at the end. I was starting to choke.)

K.

[kjdavies]

1) Item slots are focused: From the first presentation in the PHB the item slots are supposed to remain focus on a certain kind of effect. Boots do MOVEMENT stuff. If you want bonus strength that is on "Belts" etc.

Yeah that is another big pile of stupid shit in 4th.

What fucking wizard goes to Fashion Week in NY, NY to find out where an item should go?

They didn't have weight belts. They didn't know about lumbar support, slipped discs or hernias.

Why would they place STR affecting items, within the game world, on a friggin belt? And why can someone not place the enchantment somewhere else?

Talk about being arbitrary for the sake of being arbitrary.

*Or* they have some basic knowledge of mythology.

Thor owns a short-handled hammer, Mjöllnir, which, when thrown at a target, returns magically to its owner. His Mjöllnir also has the power to throw lightning bolts. To wield Mjöllnir, Thor wears the belt Megingjord, which boosts the wearer's strength and a pair of special iron gloves, Járngreipr, to lift the hammer. Mjöllnir is also his main weapon when fighting giants. The uniquely shaped symbol subsequently became a very popular ornament during the Viking Age and has since become an iconic symbol of Germanic paganism .

Thor rather predates weight belts and I would guess is the source of the belts=strength thing in D&D.

Keith

[Crissa]

Pulling hats out of mythology doesn't make it any less arbitrary. Especially when the list of effects doesn't include 90% of the effects on the magic item list.

-Crissa

[RandomCasualty2]

... but it is totally unfair. But you have the designer's word that when they wrote a system in which the players by definition don't get equally valuable loot, that they did not mean for it to be unfair. Which means that we have them admitting that they aren't good at their job.

Well no, not really. I mean in 4E, arguably you can hand out magic items to most of your party and gold to the other guy. And the gold guy may well come out ahead in the whole deal because he gets to cherry pick what he wants.

In 4E, you can just run into a shop and be back in an hour with any magic item you can afford. It's the magic item economy on steroids.

[shadzar]

1) Item slots are focused: From the first presentation in the PHB the item slots are supposed to remain focus on a certain kind of effect. Boots do MOVEMENT stuff. If you want bonus strength that is on "Belts" etc.

Yeah that is another big pile of stupid shit in 4th.

What fucking wizard goes to Fashion Week in NY, NY to find out where an item should go?

They didn't have weight belts. They didn't know about lumbar support, slipped discs or hernias.

Why would they place STR affecting items, within the game world, on a friggin belt? And why can someone not place the enchantment somewhere else?

Talk about being arbitrary for the sake of being arbitrary.

*Or* they have some basic knowledge of mythology.

Thor owns a short-handled hammer, Mjöllnir, which, when thrown at a target, returns magically to its owner. His Mjöllnir also has the power to throw lightning bolts. To wield Mjöllnir, Thor wears the belt Megingjord, which boosts the wearer's strength and a pair of special iron gloves, Járngreipr, to lift the hammer. Mjöllnir is also his main weapon when fighting giants. The uniquely shaped symbol subsequently became a very popular ornament during the Viking Age and has since become an iconic symbol of Germanic paganism .

Thor rather predates weight belts and I would guess is the source of the belts=strength thing in D&D.

Keith

A returning hammer...ok sounds feasbile, any thrown weapon could be enchanted to return to the wielder...but what is this I see?

and a pair of special iron gloves, Járngreipr, to lift the hammer

Doesn't that mean that the gloves are affecting strength, and NOT just the belt?

So your argument kind of violates the concept that only a belt would aid in strength as some weight belt would since it says the belt was not enough and still gloves were needed.

What it does is strengthen previous editions where magic could be placed on a number of locations on the body and affect the same thing. In Thor's case this would be a belt and gloves stacking to affect his strength.

So while there may be some common sense in locations, you have to think that any wizard with half a brain would try to make things for the purpose of stacking. How better to make his big dumb brutish guard stronger than anyone else and able to protect him by loading him up with strength affecting item to wear so that with a single flip of a finger he could send 90% of the people that may oppose the wizard flying away to another region of the world. Which leaves the wizard more time to do what he wants to do instead of bothering with pesky trespassers himself.

It doesn't mean a belt cannot aid strength, but why only a belt? There is no reason. IF everyone wears exactly the same thing for the same reason, then you might as well be wlaking around wearing your equipment list written on your armor since everyone will know what magic items you poses.

When in contrast having say a ring offer strength, or maybe socks even, people would never know exactly what they are up against should they decide to into an altercation with you.

What is worse than having fixed slots, is the way the treasure parcels are given out, your level of the party would be telegraphed to everyone else int he gameworld due to the amount of stuff you have since the economy is fixed based on the treasure parcels. Which places too much of the mechanics in the hands of the characters in the world.

You know someone not wearing a belt isn't magically enhanced for a strength boost, and you know just how much a boost they may have due to their party level based on collective gear they have.

Just as in the real world you can tell how much someone might be worth by the way they are dressed, levels and such are too open in 4th edition system the way it is.

[Crissa]

Yes, traditionally he also has iron gloves of strength.

-Crissa