Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

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Post by RobbyPants »

IGTN wrote:The argument "life begins at conception, ergo the fetus deserves protection from being killed by humans" ignores womens' bodily sovereignty. It would be a valid argument against abortion if fetuses were carried by nonsapient tanks, but is not for actual pregnant people.
It's both that, and defining when "life begins" is rather subjective. I don't know how you'd even begin to go about proving that. I can see why people think that, but I don't know how you prove it other than by definition.

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The fingers. Duh! Most people don't realize chickens have fingers because they're hidden under the feathers. And apparently (according to any I've had), they're four to six inches long. I think they're retractable or something. :p
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Post by shadzar »

So they come from roosters then, who only have one "finger" each?
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by tzor »

Kaelik wrote:1) Why not start and end with the moral arguments? Because all you are "proving" with your manipulated statistics with no context is that we should have safer abortions, and yet you are strongly against safer abortions.
Sure, I could start and end with a moral argument. Somehow it would not be “Den” like but I will do anything once.

Abortion is a moral wrong that ends the life of a human being. The fact that is also occurs naturally does not mitigate the moral wrong in any manner whatsoever; just as the fact that people do starve to death mitigate the moral wrongness of deliberately starving a person to death.

Abortion is a procedure that is sometimes necessary to save the life of the pregnant woman. This is an application of the principle of double effect, although in some cases this is stretch of the application. The most clear cut example is when implantation occurs in the fallopian tubes. In general the principle of double effect can be applied when there is no alternative that does not involve a inherent evil of some sort.

In the United States, Abortion is allowed for any reason whatsoever. As a result of this abortion is often used as a last “safety net” option to contraception.

In the United States, the organization “Planned Parenthood” is a major provider of abortions. (Although technically speaking they perform more “reversible” contraception procedures – 2,360, 796 in 2007 – then they do “emergency contraception kits” – 1,423,365 in 2007 – or abortions – 305,310 in 2007 – source their own 2007-2008 annual report.) They are also one of the two biggest lobbyists for absolute rights to unregulated abortions in the United States. They go beyond simple lobbying and actively employ lawyers to ensure the unregulated status for abortions. They are also strongly involved not only in “education” of the young but in indoctrination of the young to trust the Planned Parenthood brand.

Ignoring, for a moment, the origins of this organization in 1916, (by Margaret Sanger a strong supporter of negative eugenics, the same ideology that drove a lot of the Nazi Germany forced sterilization policy) Planned Parenthood is the provider, lobbyer, legal defense fund, and youth indoctrination medium for “abortion on demand,” which at the very least is a conflict of interest. Wrapped under the notion of being a special right, at the very least they have the same moral lack of standing as the tobacco industry in the mid 20th century.

The tobacco comparison is an interesting one. In order to promote their product, companies deliberately hid important medical information. Since they knew they were selling a fatal product, they deliberately put in additives to their product that were known carcinogens. They deliberately attempted to gain the confidence of youth in order to promote their product to the next generation.

It becomes more important when considering that the Pro-Abortion Law lobby groups often use the banner “Pro-Choice” but fail to provide real “informed” choice. They deliberately hide the risks and long term complications of the abortion procedures. They deliberately hide the fact of the development of the fetus, especially in terms of abortions well into fetal development if not outright viability. They even hide the fact that not all abortions are perfect and the result of a failed abortion can be the birth of a live human being into the world, a birth which, more often than not, they deliberately kill through neglect afterwards.

This, in and of itself is 75% of the work that most pro-life organizations do; preventing even further codification of the special status of abortion in state law (New York is a constant problem in this regard; we are the abortion capital of the United States for a reason, you know) getting the message out on the real and moral status of the pre-born and alerting parents to the forced indoctrination of their young while trying to avoid fully informing the parents who are the legal guardians of their young.

Thus we have several moral dilemmas. The first is the elimination of the cloak of secrecy that is deliberately maintained by the abortion industry. The second is the elimination of the far extremes. Last but not least is the overall reduction of the dependence on the procedure.

Here tobacco provides us with a logical example of two possible scenarios. You could just blatantly make it illegal, just as it was before Roe v Wade. Pot is blatantly illegal and we all know people still smoke it. The other is through the force of knowledge and information, present the moral high ground and let the people decide to take that.

The later isn’t perfect (there is a recent rise in the percentage of smokers in the United States – probably due to the bad economic times) but it’s probably the best plan that we know of.
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by tzor »

Koumei wrote:
tzor wrote:That they are so paranoid of loosing total control of their precious institution that they will do anything to keep the funding going and the status quo continuing.
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the church there, not the League of Extraordinary Abortionists.
The church arguments against abortion (which come from both the top of the heirarchy and the bottom; Priests for Life, for example is a grassroots organization of clergy dedicated to pro-life issues not something from the Vatican or the US Bishops) is clearly a universal moral issue for the church.

Opposion to homsexual marriage on the other hand ... might better fit your argument.

Koumei wrote:And again I remind people that unless the pro-lifers are willing to adopt and take care of every single abandoned child ...
Last time I checked the ratio of people who want to adopt vs people who can be adopted is so bad that most parents have to look to third world countries in order to adopt babies. Generally speaking, most third world countries don't like this idea in the least.
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Post by Username17 »

The principal of double effect is laughable. From the big perspective, everything has good and bad effects, so the principal of double effect is just a license to do anything you want and claim some god or another told you to do it.

Man up: If you want to create a situation like the Philippines where there is unsustainably high population growth and there are more abortions than China and they are routinely performed by literally beating teenage girls in the stomach, you should just nut up and admit that is your agenda. It's a wicked and morally wrong agenda, and it's yours, and you shouldn't try to weasel out of it. You should not try to weasel out of it by claiming all those dead teenagers at the bottoms of staircases or with coathangers rammed up their vaginas is some sort of "double effect" and you shouldn't try to hide behind mislabeling statistics.

The law is all about addressing moral wrongs. Girls dying from lack of proper medical care is a moral wrong. Girls deciding when and how they are going to carry babies to term or have miscarriages is not. The world that Tzor is offering is not just intrusive and creepy, it is morally wrong. Not in "double effect" but in actual effect.

We totally have an example of a country where you get your way. It's Cardinal Sin's Philippines, and it is morally wrong.

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Post by tzor »

RobbyPants wrote:It's both that, and defining when "life begins" is rather subjective. I don't know how you'd even begin to go about proving that. I can see why people think that, but I don't know how you prove it other than by definition.
Unless you want to get into complex arguments about what “life” is; life begins at conception. The genetic material to create a human being is complete at the moment of conception. This is really simple and straightforward. It might be the wrong question to ask, but it’s simple and straightforward.

(Note that the question is now when we know there is a life. The improper combination of DNA can also occur at conception which will not lead to the development of a human being under the proper conditions. However for any human being, the begging of its unique identity as a being began at conception.)
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Post by Username17 »

I blink for half a second and Tzr goes ahead and starts lying to people again. What the fuck?
tzor wrote:Unless you want to get into complex arguments about what “life” is; life begins at conception. The genetic material to create a human being is complete at the moment of conception. This is really simple and straightforward. It might be the wrong question to ask, but it’s simple and straightforward.
So unless you want to actually answer the question you get to peddle whatever bullshit you feel like? The genetic material to create a human is in every non-haploid, nucleated cell! Are you seriously claiming that every cellular proliferation in the stomach is a new life just because it has all of the human's DNA? Are you claiming that every single mutation, every one of the millions of mutations per second that your body produces is a new human life just because it has a unique set of human DNA?

What the fuck? Being a cell with human DNA doesn't make you alive. It makes you a cell. A cell in some tissue. In an organ. In a body. And the body is alive. But of course, you can tell that the woman is a living human by you know, asking her.

Something isn't a life until it is independently alive. Otherwise we'd have to worry about human rights for tumors.

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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by Zherog »

tzor wrote:
Kaelik wrote:1) Why not start and end with the moral arguments? Because all you are "proving" with your manipulated statistics with no context is that we should have safer abortions, and yet you are strongly against safer abortions.
Sure, I could start and end with a moral argument. Somehow it would not be “Den” like but I will do anything once.

>>snip long post<<
So, really, what you're in favor of is more education. Allow a pregnant woman to know the facts -- about what's going to happen, about potential side-effects, about after care, about alternatives, etc -- and then she can make an informed choice about what's right for her.
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by Kaelik »

tzor wrote:Abortion is a moral wrong that ends the life of a human being.
1) You have a fucked up definition of human being.
tzor wrote:In the United States, the organization “Planned Parenthood” is a major provider of abortions. (Although technically speaking they perform more “reversible” contraception procedures – 2,360, 796 in 2007 – then they do “emergency contraception kits” – 1,423,365 in 2007 – or abortions – 305,310 in 2007 – source their own 2007-2008 annual report.) They are also one of the two biggest lobbyists for absolute rights to unregulated abortions in the United States. They go beyond simple lobbying and actively employ lawyers to ensure the unregulated status for abortions. They are also strongly involved not only in “education” of the young but in indoctrination of the young to trust the Planned Parenthood brand.
In the US, the organization "National Rifle Association" is the biggest lobbyist for absolute right to unregulated guns. They go beyond simple lobbying and actively employ lawyers to ensure that guns are unregulated. (The fact that they often lose is just because they are wrong.) They are also strongly involved in not only "education" of the young but indoctrination of the young to trust the safety of guns.

That's not evil Planned Parenthood hard at work, that's the reality of our political situation that requires every business to lobby for itself because no one else will. Of course only people who actually understand what abortion is will lobby on behalf of abortions, because people with no fucking clue, IE you, certainly can't be expected to. You are too busy lobbying for the Catholic Church.

And shut up with this 'unregulated' lie. Like all medical procedures, abortions are highly regulated. It's just that only the safety/care/methods and cost are regulated, and the act is not banned arbitrarily (except where it is, but you know, whatever, ignore those.) That lie is exactly equivalent to me claiming that owning handguns is unregulated because anyone can do it. It's still highly regulated.
tzor wrote:Ignoring, for a moment, the origins of this organization in 1916, (by Margaret Sanger a strong supporter of negative eugenics, the same ideology that drove a lot of the Nazi Germany forced sterilization policy)
Pro Tip: When you say you are ignoring something, then explicitly bring it up. You are not ignoring it.

For example: Ignoring for the moment the economic backbone of the south on it's founding (It existed only because of the heavy exploitation and slavery it racistly imposed on the blacks it considered inferior.) Blah Blah.

Moral of the Story: Lots of things have shitty founding stories, like Ford Motor Company, that pretty much directly parallels your Planned Parenthood story. But luckily, everyone who isn't a biased lying asshole bent on scoring points is capable of accepting that the present day institution is usually not reflective of it's founding.
tzor wrote:Planned Parenthood is the provider, lobbyer, legal defense fund, and youth indoctrination medium for “abortion on demand,” which at the very least is a conflict of interest. Wrapped under the notion of being a special right, at the very least they have the same moral lack of standing as the tobacco industry in the mid 20th century.
See: NRA.
tzor wrote:It becomes more important when considering that the Pro-Abortion Law lobby groups often use the banner “Pro-Choice” but fail to provide real “informed” choice. They deliberately hide the risks and long term complications of the abortion procedures. They deliberately hide the fact of the development of the fetus, especially in terms of abortions well into fetal development if not outright viability. They even hide the fact that not all abortions are perfect and the result of a failed abortion can be the birth of a live human being into the world, a birth which, more often than not, they deliberately kill through neglect afterwards.

This, in and of itself is 75% of the work that most pro-life organizations do; preventing even further codification of the special status of abortion in state law (New York is a constant problem in this regard; we are the abortion capital of the United States for a reason, you know) getting the message out on the real and moral status of the pre-born and alerting parents to the forced indoctrination of their young while trying to avoid fully informing the parents who are the legal guardians of their young.

Thus we have several moral dilemmas. The first is the elimination of the cloak of secrecy that is deliberately maintained by the abortion industry. The second is the elimination of the far extremes. Last but not least is the overall reduction of the dependence on the procedure.
See: Anti Abortion groups lying about shit constantly.

Moral of the Story: You don't give a shit about the women undergoing abortions, so don't pretend you do. You actually want to make their lives miserable at the expense of creating more parentless children.

Tiny mention: Adoption. Wow you are extra stupid with stupid on top. They go to third world countries so they can cut through the regulations that in the united states limit adoption to capable parents. In fact, 50,000 children are adopted each year, and 300,000 are given to the system to take care of. Most children spend their whole childhood lives in foster care/institutional care without ever getting adopted. Then they turn 18 and fend for themselves. Try again.

If you can arrange for 250,000 more adoptions a year to take place, I'll fucking join you in discouraging abortions.
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So we're having another one of these debates

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Fuck the whole "when does life begin argument" - it's a stupid argument with no common ground to be reached.

I'll just go ahead and grant right out that life begins at conception. So, sure a zygote is a person, before it even reaches the blastocyst stage.

But the issue is that if it has rights, it also has responsibilities and obligations.

When a living person enters my home and my wife's body and begins to suck her blood from the inside in a process that poses serious a risk to her physical health, that is
  • Trespassing
  • Rape
  • Aggravated sexual assault
    and also
  • Attempted murder
And in such cases lethal force is completely justified as a means of self-defense. It is legally and morally irrelevant that such an intruder entered while we were engaged in intercourse.

So, yeah sure abortion is totally killing people, but even so it is completely morally justifiable, and therefore not murder.
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by Koumei »

tzor wrote: The church arguments against abortion (which come from both the top of the heirarchy and the bottom; Priests for Life, for example is a grassroots organization of clergy dedicated to pro-life issues not something from the Vatican or the US Bishops) is clearly a universal moral issue for the church.

Opposion to homsexual marriage on the other hand ... might better fit your argument.
You misunderstand: I mean that's them in general. On any issue. Anything at all is "Keep the status quo! Abhor change! Kill the heretic! Make sure we're still the ones on top, even if it means spewing bullshit and lies every time we open our mouths!"

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any other religion does any better in the same situation. I (dis)respect all religions equally! Yours just happens to be the one with the most sway in the countries most relevant to people here.
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by tzor »

Kaelik wrote:In the US, the organization "National Rifle Association" is the biggest lobbyist for absolute right to unregulated guns. They go beyond simple lobbying and actively employ lawyers to ensure that guns are unregulated. (The fact that they often lose is just because they are wrong.) They are also strongly involved in not only "education" of the young but indoctrination of the young to trust the safety of guns.
Simply put – WRONG. (They basically teach that guns aren’t safe unless you take a whole lot of precautions and steps to make them safe.) Now the NRA does have a lot of positions that go over the top, even for average gun owners; they supported the right to Teflon cop killer bullets, for example. But they are not a provider or maker of firearms; the analogy falls flat there.
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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

If the Catholic Church cares about children so much, why did they allow institutionalized Catholic child rape to occur in the United States and Ireland? Kind of hard to take them seriously on abortion when they let their priests go rape crazy and are aided and abetted by the church in their crimes.
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by tzor »

Kaelik wrote:And shut up with this 'unregulated' lie. Like all medical procedures, abortions are highly regulated.
Some Doctors May Be Hazardous To Your Health
[Note: Abortion Malpractice is seriously underreported. Women's health is threatened daily by unregulated abortion "clinics." Priests for Life brings this article to your attention because of the fact that of the five medical mishaps reported here, one of them was a botched abortion. However, the fact that the procedure was an abortion is not mentioned. Even the photo caption masks the full story by stating, "Dr. David Benjamin allowed Guadalupe Negron to bleed to death following surgery at his Queens, N.Y., clinic. He was convicted of her murder in 1995." We make no assertion that anyone in particular is to blame for this curious avoidance of explicit reference to abortion; we simply point it out.

The paramedic who arrived on the scene was so disgusted by the filthy, disorganized conditions inside that he spoke out publicly about it.]

Abortion Malpractice
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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

Well that settles it for me! Since clearly banning abortions would end all medical malpractice, we should do it right away. Good thing medical malpractice never occurs under any other circumstances or we might need to get rid of modern medicine altogether!

/sarcasm
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Re: Abortion Complications? Who would have thought?

Post by Kaelik »

tzor wrote:Simply put – WRONG. (They basically teach that guns aren’t safe unless you take a whole lot of precautions and steps to make them safe.) Now the NRA does have a lot of positions that go over the top, even for average gun owners; they supported the right to Teflon cop killer bullets, for example. But they are not a provider or maker of firearms; the analogy falls flat there.
1) Planned Parenthood teaches that abortions aren't safe unless done by trained practitioners under heavy regulation after consultation with your entire medical history known.

2) Maybe you don't know anything at all about the NRA, let me help you out:

a) The NRA provides guns.
b) The NRA provides range materials and certifies shooting instructors.
c) The NRA is completely financially dependent on the existence of guns.
d) The largest Donors to the NRA are gun manufacturing corporations.

What exactly is the distinction you are trying to make?

It's a facet of the American economy that if people who liked guns didn't lobby they would be completely illegal, just like if people who think abortions are necessary didn't lobby they would be illegal. You are a dishonest shill for attempting to brand Planned Parenthood with a "Conflict of interest" as if a single lobbying organization in the entire fucking universe wasn't under the same stipulations.

It's not a conflict of interest because lobbying organizations are not supposed to be impartial.
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Post by tzor »

Ganbare Gincun wrote:If the Catholic Church cares about children so much, why did they allow institutionalized Catholic child rape to occur in the United States and Ireland? Kind of hard to take them seriously on abortion when they let their priests go rape crazy and are aided and abetted by the church in their crimes.
Why do cops tend to defend the rotten apples? Why do congressmen tend to cover up the corrupt ones in their own party?

Part of it involves not wanting to air dirty laundry. Part of it involves self delusion that the problem isn’t really a problem after all.

You want to know the real joke? The problem in Catholic Churches and Schools is minor compared to what went on in Public Schools. That’s the joke; Child molesters look like everyone else; they can be married, single, male or female. Recently New York State tried to revoke the statue of limitations for reporting child abuse, for some reason the Teachers Unions wanted an exemption for reporting child abuse at public schools. I wonder why.

Sex Abuse by Teachers Said Worse Than Catholic Church

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Post by erik »

tzor wrote: You want to know the real joke? The problem in Catholic Churches and Schools is minor compared to what went on in Public Schools. That’s the joke; Child molesters look like everyone else; they can be married, single, male or female.
Just so long as this joke isn't some veiled attempt at justification or ablation of hypocrisy and immorality on the part of the Catholic Church.

We do tend to hold religious organizations to a higher moral standard since they are supposed to be the ones setting the standard, at least in their own eyes. Should this be surprising to anyone? Of course not.


[edit: I've been trying to piece together the statistics cited in that link to make a meaningful comparison between public school sexual abuse versus catholic school sexual abuse... and can't. It is frustrating, since it smells lke a bunch of bullshit the way they word things and use non-comparable numbers in their article. Their conclusion apparently is like saying you are more likely to see the sun in california than in montana, just because more people see the sun in california.

edit2: fuck, on the top page of the newsmax site, I found this misleading advertisement hidden as a news story, along with multiple ads for palin books and conservative crap. what sort of trash site did you link us to, tzor?]
Last edited by erik on Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

I love the complete fucking tangents tzor throws out when cornered.

For fuck's sake: Biblical law counts a human baby as being a living human with rights on their first birthday. You're totally allowed to leave those things in the desert any time in the first several months if it isn't "working out." Heck, there are rabbinical sorceries in the bible for purposes of aborting fetuses. Even if we accepted nutcase rantings that we should follow Bronze Age goatherder myths for our morality, they don't even have restrictions on abortion.

This "life begins at conception" BS is totally recent, totally crap, and totally nonfunctional for society. People who believe it are not only historically ignorant, they are bad people.

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Post by Kaelik »

tzor wrote:
Ganbare Gincun wrote:If the Catholic Church cares about children so much, why did they allow institutionalized Catholic child rape to occur in the United States and Ireland? Kind of hard to take them seriously on abortion when they let their priests go rape crazy and are aided and abetted by the church in their crimes.
Why do cops tend to defend the rotten apples? Why do congressmen tend to cover up the corrupt ones in their own party?

Part of it involves not wanting to air dirty laundry. Part of it involves self delusion that the problem isn’t really a problem after all.

You want to know the real joke? The problem in Catholic Churches and Schools is minor compared to what went on in Public Schools. That’s the joke; Child molesters look like everyone else; they can be married, single, male or female. Recently New York State tried to revoke the statue of limitations for reporting child abuse, for some reason the Teachers Unions wanted an exemption for reporting child abuse at public schools. I wonder why.

Sex Abuse by Teachers Said Worse Than Catholic Church

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Oh really. Newsmax thinks teachers are worse than Priests? Big surprise.

Meanwhile, no. It's like there are more teachers in the US, so of course their are more abuses in total.

Fuck you and your more dishonest statistics.

Not to mention that even according to that article, most of the abuse in schools is consensual between adults and "teenagers", unlike for example, rapists priests and five year olds.
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Post by Crissa »

I noticed that my prior point - that the number of abortions performed has nothing to do with the legality of abortions - has been ignored by tzor.

Nor has he fessed up how we're supposed to litigate the life or health of an adult person vs a bunch of cells which may or may not become a person.

I also notice he doesn't allow abortion if we know the fetus is dead or suffering from some otherwise fatal flaw. Which (of course) all late-term abortions were...

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Post by ckafrica »

FrankTrollman wrote: For fuck's sake: Biblical law counts a human baby as being a living human with rights on their first birthday. You're totally allowed to leave those things in the desert any time in the first several months if it isn't "working out." Heck, there are rabbinical sorceries in the bible for purposes of aborting fetuses. Even if we accepted nutcase rantings that we should follow Bronze Age goatherder myths for our morality, they don't even have restrictions on abortion.
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You got the chapters and verses on those so we can throw it at anyone trying such BS arguments in the future?
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Post by Username17 »

Sorry, it's not a year, it's the equally arbitrary one lunar month. My apologies.

Leviticus 27:6 (babies below one month have no value)
Numbers 3:15 (only children a month old or older count for census purposes)

Numbers 5:12-31 (abortion causing magic ritual for the pious to use)

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Post by Vnonymous »

I personally wonder why Tzor cares about this sort of thing because abortion availability is an issue that's never going to affect him ever at all.

It's almost like he just parrots opinions from people in positions of authority without thinking about them at all.
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Post by Koumei »

It's one of those things where ultimately it can be used to control women. No, banning abortions won't make us slaves, but it's one more step in taking options away and saying "You are in this situation, you must stay there and like it."

Which is high on the agenda for religious types.

So basically it's for the same reason that many guys here oppose his position on like every fucking point even though they'll never be pregnant.
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