Vampire Weaknesses, where the fuck do they come from?

[Prak]

yeah... I knew about that, I'm just wondering why the hell are they obsessive compulsive?

[shadzar]

I remember where this comes from. Vampires are a bit obsessive compulsive in some myths. If you places a pile of sesame seeds in your house where the vamp would stumble across it, then the would be complied to count every single one. If they took long enough dawn would catch them.

So... Are you telling me that the fact that the Count on Sesame Street is a Vampire is based on something that makes some kind of fucking sense?

Yup. Goes along with how salt wa sprinkled around something to protect it because salt was pure, but could you imagine an OCD critter cleaning it up, and having to count each grain while they did so?

Gives you plenty of time find a way to finish them off.

Add to that the silly name/action thing...the Count counts. I am all for puns, but come on now. That got old after seeing it so long in the 70's. That is why Electric Company ended up competing with Sesame Street for a good few years.

The nature of the OCD and roots of it, aren't something I can track down, but many sources, prior to defining OCD, say something about it, even in Hansel and Gretel and their missing bread crumbs.

"Like how Mary Mary quite contrary, how does your garden grow" was made form Mary Queen of Scots and her bad acts.

yeah... I knew about that, I'm just wondering why the hell are they obsessive compulsive?

Maybe because they are ever living, and like a prisoner in a cell would count the days a vampire gets obsessed with counting from counting the days of his unlife.

That is the best guess I can make.

[Data Vampire]

I have no idea where the origin of the obsessive compulsive vampire comes from.

Wikipedia on the subject.

Also a half vampires, also called a dhampir or dhampyr, is said to be able to sense vampires.

[Draco_Argentum]

And there's nothing wrong with making a pure power fantasy story about a badass villain who kills people. But if you try to rationalize that shit, you're rationalizing evil.

This sounds like you're saying killing is automatically wrong. Shooting someone isn't what makes you a villain unless we're going to get into a shooting Hitler is wrong argument. Shooting the mooks in the way is just the cost of war.

[Koumei]

I'm with Draco on this one. It's good that there are stories that say "So understand that nobody is doing their job and evil is running rampant. Time to step up to the plate and show how it's done. With a 50-cal."

I, for instance, am looking forward to seeing Death Note, and had I been the main character, I would have filled that book in under a day. If actual evildoers aren't going to be brought to justice, there is nothing morally wrong with shooting them in the face. And then shooting, in the face, anyone who thinks this makes you the villain and tries to stop you.

Note: the real moral of the story here is that ideally the police should do their fucking job, but I expect the end of all life on this planet, including those things that can survive in space, before that ever happens. So vigilantism is just the natural progression of a shitty situation called "The real world", not the first option.

[Username17]

And there's nothing wrong with making a pure power fantasy story about a badass villain who kills people. But if you try to rationalize that shit, you're rationalizing evil.

This sounds like you're saying killing is automatically wrong. Shooting someone isn't what makes you a villain unless we're going to get into a shooting Hitler is wrong argument. Shooting the mooks in the way is just the cost of war.

Wow. That's ridiculously out of context to the point that you're actually arguing against a statement that is almost exactly the opposite of my actual point. Thank you for your straw man, and kindly fuck the fuck off.

-Username17

[Koumei]

I don't know, Frank: it doesn't seem to be that much of a strawman. Kratos kills "the bad guys". Roughly half the modern stories about vampires have them kill "the bad guys" (often those untouchable by law. See: as much of Angel as you can bear to watch, so like, an episode).

And it's a perfectly reasonable justification that the people they're killing are "the bad guys" and thus totally had it coming. That doesn't rule out that maybe Kratos is a complete dickhead, but it doesn't automatically make him a dickhead. Or Wolverine, or Light Yagami or Daredevil or whoever. They kill people who happen to be in dire need of killing. In some instances they're also supreme jerks.

[angelfromanotherpin]

yeah... I knew about that, I'm just wondering why the hell are they obsessive compulsive?

That part of the myth is directly traceable to witch myths which predate vampire myths and are then gradually conflated with them. It's basically a taboo, a specific thing that black magic users have to do in order to maintain their powers.

[Draco_Argentum]

Wow. That's ridiculously out of context to the point that you're actually arguing against a statement that is almost exactly the opposite of my actual point. Thank you for your straw man, and kindly fuck the fuck off.

Then what is your point? The Wolverine movie has him working for Stryker, realising that Stryker is an ass then ending up fighting Stryker. The game appears to broadly follow that plot line. Movie Wolverine doesn't really do much arseholery. I hear that is a deviation from the comics, I've never read those. But based just on the movie hes some guy who kills his evil, bigoted ex-boss. Hes not even anti-hero.

[Username17]

Wow. That's ridiculously out of context to the point that you're actually arguing against a statement that is almost exactly the opposite of my actual point. Thank you for your straw man, and kindly fuck the fuck off.

Then what is your point? The Wolverine movie has him working for Stryker, realising that Stryker is an ass then ending up fighting Stryker. The game appears to broadly follow that plot line. Movie Wolverine doesn't really do much arseholery. I hear that is a deviation from the comics, I've never read those. But based just on the movie hes some guy who kills his evil, bigoted ex-boss. Hes not even anti-hero.

We weren't even talking about the movie though. We were talking about Wolverine Uncaged: The Video Game. So um... what the fuck?

Did you even bother watching the youtube video that Lago and I were arguing about, or did you just decide to accuse me of inconsistency or dishonesty with no grounds whatsoever?

-Username17

[Prak]

I don't know, Frank: it doesn't seem to be that much of a strawman. Kratos kills "the bad guys". Roughly half the modern stories about vampires have them kill "the bad guys" (often those untouchable by law. See: as much of Angel as you can bear to watch, so like, an episode).

And it's a perfectly reasonable justification that the people they're killing are "the bad guys" and thus totally had it coming. That doesn't rule out that maybe Kratos is a complete dickhead, but it doesn't automatically make him a dickhead. Or Wolverine, or Light Yagami or Daredevil or whoever. They kill people who happen to be in dire need of killing. In some instances they're also supreme jerks.

It just so happens that nice people are usually against killing people in serious need of killing, and the people who are pragmatic enough to kill people in serious need of a worms eye view perspective on the world tend to be total dicks.

[Draco_Argentum]

We weren't even talking about the movie though. We were talking about Wolverine Uncaged: The Video Game. So um... what the fuck?

Did you even bother watching the youtube video that Lago and I were arguing about, or did you just decide to accuse me of inconsistency or dishonesty with no grounds whatsoever?

-Username17

The video game plot as you posted is broadly the same as the movie. He gets sick of the innocent killing under Stryker, deserts, has the girlfriend who gets fake murdered and goes for revenge. Then he finds Stryker wants his memory erased, gets pissed at Stryker again and things diverge a bit here. But he still ends up fighting Stryker.

According to the video you posted his fighting style is a lot like stabbing people with swords only he has six of them and they're glued to his arms. So while I'm sure Anthony Burch thought his rant was justified he sure didn't bother to back it up with supporting video clips. His point completely hinged on Wolverine being evil, all I saw was some guy swording people who are shooting at him. He didn't show me a villain, he showed me a combatant killing people who are trying to kill him.

Unless someone has evidence of game Wolverine actually brutalising his foes just because he can I'm not going to just go along with Burch's rant. Screenshot or it didn't happen.

[Koumei]

Prak: Often it is the case. We really need someone to man up and just kill everyone on the planet. A reliable source* says that Margaret Thatcher was intending on having her special police do that.

Draco: you could argue he's a bit of a dick in X-Men vs Street Fighter? Yeah, that's kind of pushing it. Besides, no-one plays him in that, it's motherfucking Gouki all the way, teamed up with "no-one actually cares". Because you pretty much need his aero super fireball to beat Apocalypse.

*Hugh Laurie

[Kaelik]

Draco. The point is that all those people he kills are just 20 year old poor kids in the military. He just happens to enjoy murderously butchering people who are totally unrelated to Striker or himself except that they are on the lookout for a murderer, IE him.

"You have to murder hundreds of innocents in order to stop the bomb from blowing up new york" is already pushing it for being an actual hero.

But "You murder hundreds of innocents just so you can get revenge on some guy" is not good by any stretch. Even less so when you are mother fucking immortal, and you could seriously go around disarming them and knocking them out, and just plain running by them.

Bottom line. If your boss happened to rape my mother, it wouldn't make me a hero to walk into your place of employment and postal a bunch of people who weren't bothering me on my way to shooting him.

It would make me a vigilante who also murders innocents just for shits and giggles. IE evil.

[Koumei]

Bottom line. If your boss happened to rape my mother, it wouldn't make me a hero to walk into your place of employment and postal a bunch of people who weren't bothering me on my way to shooting him.

It would make me a vigilante who also murders innocents just for shits and giggles. IE evil.

Right. But I take it these guys working for Striker are trying to shoot him, right? They're just doing their job, but their job involves "Getting in the way" and "Trying to shoot you". So really, they have the opportunity to remember they have pressing matters to attend to anywhere else. If they insist on getting in the way and trying to shoot you, that really becomes their problem.

I'll bring up Death Note again: Light kills off the evildoers, and skips the middleman, going right for the big people who make bad things happen. So he's actively making the world a better place. Now, L is a detective who is trying to stop him. In the end, once he actually meets L, he writes his name in the book and L dies (spoiler!). Did L personally deserve that? No, but he did knowingly get in the way of making the world a better place, so he won one (1) free heart attack.

It's a shame that sometimes people who aren't the big bad guy still feel they have to get in the way of the big bad being killed, but ultimately that's their fault and their problem.

[Orion]

Koumei. Have you actually watched Death Note? Yagami is a monster. If you don't want to be disabused of your hero-worship, definitely don't watch season 2.

[shadzar]

I forget did N live or die?

[Koumei]

Haven't watched it yet - just seen the AMV Hell clips, which makes it out to be more hilarious than it probably is.

[Username17]

Monster

-Username17

[TOZ]

Shad- lived.

Koumei- Yeah, you should seriously watch it first. Light being Good/Evil is an internet flamewar for a reason.

And fuck you for saying I have a choice between fighting Wolverine and running away. They hop us up on duty and honor and glory and shit and then toss us in jail the moment we think about doing the smart thing.

Seriously, he has adamantine fists and a healing factor that works against bullets, explosions, your mom, you name it. He just stabs people because he's an asshole.

[Kobajagrande]

Yeah, Death Note is 50% of the time about Light being evil and delusional.

The other 50% is about how he's powertripping about being God and all, and in the end he dies like a whiny, pathetic brat suffering the same death as countless nameless other humans.

[Koumei]

It doesn't really alter the basis of my argument though, that Light is a dick: yes, it means I chose a bad example. But if he did limit himself to just the big bads and anyone who tried to stop him (don't get me wrong here, I'm an L fan as much as the next person, even if L is for Loser) then he would be what is known as a hero. Heroes make the world a better place, overcoming obstacles to do so. Sometimes you do that by making a list of everyone who is making the world a worse place, and ridding the world of them. And yes, anyone who will protect them is making the world a worse place by protecting them.

Frank: I saw nothing wrong with him up until 2:00 where he decided "And then I'll rid the world of everyone else I don't like". That is the part where he decided to be a monster. But if you're seriously saying that to put a round in Hitler - and his bodyguards - is wrong, well, I just can't see eye to eye on this one. Plenty of people out there would benefit the world by ceasing to exist. And if they will be so inconsiderate as to continue existing, and if no other working system is in place that actually stops them, then vigilante slaughter is the next best thing, and creates heroes out of the vigilantes.

Except you're so used to being right that I don't even know why I bother on the occasions I disagree with you: Lord Vega's brainwashing can't change your mind.

[Kobajagrande]

The thing is it takes about... 2 or 3 episodes for that Light guy to kill a police detective just because he got the job of finding him, and then subsequently the guy's widow because she had some ideas about the killer.

So it takes him a grand total of like 3 episodes to shit on his whole philosophy by killing two decent, law-abiding human beings just for "standing in his way".

The entire heroic genre is based on so much suspension of disbelief that makes any application of deeper morality impossible. I mean, just look at the Death Star conversation in The Clerks. Or the Star Wars racism thing in Chasing Amy. Its been parodied over and over again.

[Orion]

Light

--Chooses to let Misa's killing spree go unpunished to keep Rem from killing him.

--Chooses to protect himself by giving the death note to Yotsuba, making him complicit in the murders of all their rivals

--chooses to kill countless innocent FBI agents and policemen

--kills mostly convicted criminals who are presumably already in PRISON and therefore no immediate threat

[shadzar]

@shad- lived.

Damnit! I wanted him/her to die also. I just wished death upon a fictional 4th grader.