RANT: No one has taken America away from anyone

[Maj]

nice weather

Except when it floods.



That was some seriously crazy shit, BTW - I wrote some news articles about that, and anytime dry land turns into a lake 150% larger than the state of Texas, that's got to suck.

[Koumei]

Or possibly because the Czech Republic is known for making some of the best beer on earth.

True. Beer so good it helps Frank review even the most terribad of rules.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

At this point, I firmly believe a violent revolution is the only thing that can save us.

[Psychic Robot]

You were going on a rant about slaughtering the bourgeoise. I wasn't.

[Draco_Argentum]

At this point, I firmly believe a violent revolution is the only thing that can save us.

I hope not, those have a track record of ending up poorly.

Except when it floods.

Or a massive cyclone hits.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

You were going on a rant about slaughtering the bourgeoise. I wasn't.

And as Zinegata pointed out to me, the people that would suffer from such an act would be us, the regular jagoffs. An armed revolution would put another one of the same in charge (except one that was more likely to use armed assault to solve his difficulties than the last one).

You are a fool if you think nobodies like us would ever benefit from revolting.

[sabs]

Save us from which side though?

And okay, lets say you have an armed revolt.

What government do you put in it's place.
WHat are you trying to change?
Do you want to just get rid of D&R? Or do you have something else in mind, what form of buggery are you putting in it's place.

And I keep seeing polls saying
50% of americans want to repeal X, or 50% of Americans are against Gay marriage.

You know what that says to me... 50% Don't want to repeal X, and 50% are FOR gay marriage. I'm tired of people saying "50% are for blah" So therefor we must do blah.

[Maj]

Except when it floods.

Or a massive cyclone hits.

Well, God hates it because it's Queensland, I guess.

[Koumei]

To be fair, the government is trying to help the people, complete with a forced evacuation before it hit, and raising taxes a little for those who can afford it in order to help the victims. Which sounds oddly like their job (don't worry, Tony Abbot is decrying it as unnecessary and a waste!)

All countries tend to get hit by natural disasters. It's a matter of how often/how severe, and what the government does to help people. What happens when a cyclone hits America?

(Honestly curious, not some "What did YOURS ever do?" jab)

[Maj]

What happens when a cyclone hits America?

We don't have cyclones here. Just hurricanes.



Really, it depends on the severity. My mother-in-law lives in hurricane country, and they pretty much close the storm shutters and wait it out. Unless it's really bad, in which they evacuate. And government aid [is supposed to] step in and help with recovery when it's horribad.

[Koumei]

And government aid [is supposed to] step in and help with recovery when it's horribad.

Except that would be COMMUNISM and is thus bad? Or there have just been screw-ups that resulted in volunteers doing more good than the government?

[tzor]

And government aid [is supposed to] step in and help with recovery when it's horribad.

Except that would be COMMUNISM and is thus bad? Or there have just been screw-ups that resulted in volunteers doing more good than the government?

No, that sounds pretty non communism to me. Note there is a vast world of difference between "help with recovery" and "taking total absolute control." Coordinating volunteers is a major function that needs to be done by somebody and governments are in a good position to do that.

[sabs]

Amusingly enough, I think most Americans would be happy if FEMA did take total absolute control, and organized Red Cross, Salvation Army, National Guard, and smaller volunteer organizations into something sensible.

The problem has been that FEMA is wholly unable to cope with large disasters, which sucks, because that's their 'raison d'etre' so to speak.

And things like the BP disaster should have been run by the Government from day 1. it's not like you can trust the jagoffs at BP to do a REAL clean-up/disaster contigency.

[tzor]

FEMA still has a small constitutional problem, as for many cases the first primary governmental responder is the state, not the federal government.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is an agency of the United States Department of Homeland Security, initially created by Presidential Order on 1 April 1979. The primary purpose of FEMA is to coordinate the response to a disaster that has occurred in the United States and that overwhelms the resources of local and state authorities. The governor of the state in which the disaster occurs must declare a state of emergency and formally request from the president that FEMA and the federal government respond to the disaster. FEMA also provides these services for territories of the United States, such as Puerto Rico. The only exception is when an emergency and/or disaster occurs on federal property or to a federal asset, for example, the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, or the Space Shuttle Columbia in the 2003 return-flight disaster.

While on-the-ground support of disaster recovery efforts is a major part of FEMA's charter, the agency provides state and local governments with experts in specialized fields and funding for rebuilding efforts and relief funds for infrastructure, in conjunction with the Small Business Administration. FEMA also assists individuals and businesses with low interest loans. In addition to this, FEMA provides funds for training of response personnel throughout the United States and its territories as part of the agency's preparedness effort.

[sabs]

What about disasters that cut across multiple states? or are arguably not in a state, but instead in Federal Zones. (I'm not sure if the 3 miles from coast zone is state or federal domain.)

But then, I actually find the States Rights stuff in America to be on the whole pretty ridiculous. I don't trust state governments. I think they're actually worse, more corrupt, and at least as incompetent, than the Federal Government.

[tzor]

The problem is not per se jurisdiction, the problem is that because of the lack of clear jurisdiction it is not set up as a first responder. It has training functions, which is good, but everything needs to be set up through first responders because when the shit really hits the fan you need ... A WHOLE LOT OF FIRST RESPONDERS.

Now coordination would be a good thing, if FEMA did that. So every state's first responders would all be singing from the same hymnal as it were. As a problem got bigger, FEMA could call upon the first responders of other states, more and more as necessary.

If you look at most disaster planning at the state level, the states are constantly in parinoia mode trying to figure out what might go wrong and train for it. FEMA on the other hand, sits on its hands until something big happens and then PANICS.

[sabs]

Yeah, FEMA is a disgrace. It's a good concept, that's done completely horribly.

The CDC does a much better job with their mandate.. although they're still assholes about it sometimes.

[Username17]

FEMA was pretty good in the late 80s and 90s. In 2003 it was reorganized and turned into the bitch of homeland security. It's been pretty much a laughingstock ever since.

I've been out of the emergency response loop for a few years living in Europe. But back in the Bush Jr. years FEMA had been turned into a weird anti-terrorism force that was also deployed to national disasters but still empowered really only to fight attacks by humans. It was weird.

Brown warned in September 2003 that FEMA's absorption into DHS would make a mockery of FEMA’s new motto, "A Nation Prepared", and would "fundamentally sever FEMA from its core functions", "shatter agency morale" and "break longstanding, effective and tested relationships with states and first responder stakeholders". The inevitable result of the reorganization of 2003, warned Brown, would be "an ineffective and uncoordinated response" to a terrorist attack or a natural disaster.

But the most bizarre was the Bush Administration's implementation of the Incident Management System. See, Here is the real organization chart. Also Here. Back in 2005, Homeland Security was trying to sell us on a new ICS that was exactly like that except that instead of having a Public Relations Officer whose job it was to get important information to the public, we were going to have an "Intelligence Officer" whose job was:

PROTECTS SENSITIVE INFORMATION OF ALL TYPES (E.G., CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, SENSITIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT INFORMATION, PROPRIETARY AND PERSONAL INFORMATION, OR EXPORT-CONTROLLED INFORMATION) AND ENSURES ITS TRANSFER TO THOSE WHO NEED ACCESS TO IT (PROPER CLEARANCE, “NEED TO KNOW” BASIS) SO THAT THEY CAN CONDUCT THEIR MISSIONS SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY

The response at the level of fire departments was not positive. I was there when the guys at the local station got the briefing on the new role Langley would be taking in orchestrating disaster responses. The general consensus was that if the Intelligence Officer got in the way of helping people in a serious disaster that someone would arrange to "lose" him and that everyone would work around him until that could be done.

The position is basically a Commissar, a political officer whose purpose is to make sure that disaster responders don't know anything that the party has determined that they should not know. And that apparently includes corporate proprietary information, which is just fucking insane.

I'm not sure if Obama actually rescinded that. He's been pretty poor about dismissing secret police positions that Bush created, which is a shame.

-Username17

[mean_liar]

Obama is a liar and a joke, and I'm not surprised at all.

[Doom]

FEMA did a world-class horrid job during Katrina, actively shutting down communications and prevent local rescue workers from actually, well, rescuing people.

It's funny that the reason being given for FEMA negative-competence is their assuming anti-terrorist duties. My sister (an accountant of considerable skill, far superior to my own) was reassigned to the FBI for anti-terrorist work. The bulk of her anti-terrorist assignments? Tracking down copyright violators, the biggest being folks that were making Rubik's cube knock-offs.

[Koumei]

...can someone explain to me how that falls under terrorism?

No really. I'd love to know!

[Blasted]

It's a line pushed by content owners:
In Oz and in the US for many years

[Molochio]

@Doom: Agreed. Katrina was a fiasco.

[Koumei]

Oh right, that ad. Yeah.

I'm still not seeing how that actually works, unless in a roundabout way where piracy results in companies paying to have illegal court cases happen in other countries, but even there, you'd need to argue the US lawyers are terrorists and not just everyday cockbags*. In which case yes, piracy results in illegal lawsuits and money is spent funding these terrorist lawyers. Or if the CIA was to get involved in the prosecutions then a cynical person could say "There we go. CIA == terrorists, there's your link".

So if we can even get that case going, that means the ads are sort of almost true, and I expect them to be full of shit seeing as they're trying to line their own bathtubs with gold, cocaine and venison.

It still doesn't show how a sensible person would actually put it under counter-terrorism.

*Not seeing it. They still just seem like cockbags who, situation normal, think the US actually gets to dictate and enforce global laws.

[Maj]

Except that would be COMMUNISM and is thus bad? Or there have just been screw-ups that resulted in volunteers doing more good than the government?

OK. There are right-wing idiots out there who frequently spout the communism crap, but when that's a natural disaster, the communism thing is dropped. You'll see the occasional fundamentalist go off the loony end about God hating gay people, but even most conservatives don't buy that stuff.

I think most Americans would be happy if FEMA did take total absolute control, and organized Red Cross, Salvation Army, National Guard, and smaller volunteer organizations into something sensible.

Actually, if FEMA could get its shit together, I would be totally happy to see this. Quite frequently, various aid organizations aren't able to get the right transportation, access, etc, and so the efforts aren't as effective as they could be. But alas, as so many have mentioned, FEMA is a joke.