Renewable Energy

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

how many people would renewable energy benefit? If I'm robbing Peter to pay 4.6 billion people, Peter is going down with extreme prejudice.

When I use the expression robbing Peter to pay Paul I'm not specifically thinking of class warfare. Peter is the one who doesn't have the tax break, and Paul is the one who has the tax break. Peter and Paul may even be the same person.

Example: Currently we have big taxbreaks on corn based ethanol (finally Gore admitted this was only done because of politics). These taxbreaks divert a lot of corn into ethanol production. This causes massive increases in the price of non ethanol corn based products like tacos. People who buy tacos are Peter. People who buy ethanol fuel is Paul. On top of it all both Peter and Paul have to pay for this tax break because it occured upwards on the chain; it's a wash for Paul (he should come out ahead but that's not going to happen in the real world), it's a double whammy on Peter.

More importantly if you help A you indirectly hurt B because you aren't helping B. B could be actually better than A but you will never know because everyone is going to do A because of the help A is getting.

I get what you are saying now, thanks for clarifying.

And don't get me started on Ethanol, my econ teacher has explained that to me. According to her, it was an attempt to drive corn prices up. However, what happened was a bunch of grain farmers grew corn in their fields (as opposed to soy, wheat, barley, etc), which meant corn was oversupplied. Ironically the farmers who grew wheat, soy, and other grains were the ones who benefited because there was less supply for non-corn grains but roughly equivalent demand.

Ag bill comes up for vote soon. My econ teacher said it would make the health debate look like nothing.

[Molochio]

To say that fossil fuel companies lobby to undermine renewable energy is not a wild-eyed conspiracy theory. I mean yeah, the idea that Tesla had super energy production schemes that are kept under wraps is a wild-eyed conspiracy theory, but the idea that coal companies work with the government to keep solar down is not.

Coal is used in preference to other power generation methods because it costs less. And a huge reason it costs less money is because the government foots a large portion of the bill. Hidden subsidies to coal are a disincentive to making tidal power generation plants or wind farms. Every cent that gets shaved off the "burning fossil fuels" power generation plans is a barrier to entry for novel power sources.

And the oil and coal industries have a lot of cents shaved off the costs of their kilowatt hours. Not the least in the fact that the people of the world are being asked to pay pretty much the entire rather substantial environmental costs of their use.

-Username17

Fact - Tesla conducted research into free energy.
Fact - the government owns his patents and the details of his research on free energy are not available for nongovernmental use.

There is no aspect of "wild-eyed conspiracy" in the acknowledgment of these simple truths.

However, the rest of your observations are agreeable.

[DragonChild]

"Free energy" is pretty ridiculous. What, exactly, do you think Tesla found?

And Frank, while you're right, Molochio and Midnight are ALSO insane. There are no scientists being assasinated. There is no buying of patents and then setting them on fire. It's simply not happening.

And if a petroleum company DID find a way to produce energy for all, they would still make money off of petroleum, because as mentioned above, there are LOTS AND LOTS of other uses that will NEVER go away. If the wild-eyed, insane conspiracy theorist numskulls can't even read the thread, I don't see why they insist on barging in.

[cthulhu]

Yeah, the arguement that the coal industry tries to set up favourable regulation is totally, totally fair.

The idea the government is hiding Telsa's perpetual motion machine down its pants is totally, totally insane.

Fact - Tesla conducted research into free energy.
Fact - the government owns his patents and the details of his research on free energy are not available for nongovernmental use.

There is no aspect of "wild-eyed conspiracy" in the acknowledgment of these simple truths.

You know all the patents have expired right?

[cthulhu]

Just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

how many people would renewable energy benefit? If I'm robbing Peter to pay 4.6 billion people, Peter is going down with extreme prejudice.

When I use the expression robbing Peter to pay Paul I'm not specifically thinking of class warfare. Peter is the one who doesn't have the tax break, and Paul is the one who has the tax break. Peter and Paul may even be the same person.

Example: Currently we have big taxbreaks on corn based ethanol (finally Gore admitted this was only done because of politics). These taxbreaks divert a lot of corn into ethanol production. This causes massive increases in the price of non ethanol corn based products like tacos. People who buy tacos are Peter. People who buy ethanol fuel is Paul. On top of it all both Peter and Paul have to pay for this tax break because it occured upwards on the chain; it's a wash for Paul (he should come out ahead but that's not going to happen in the real world), it's a double whammy on Peter.

More importantly if you help A you indirectly hurt B because you aren't helping B. B could be actually better than A but you will never know because everyone is going to do A because of the help A is getting.

with this in mind, I assume you are in favour of a carbon tax?

[Zinegata]

In any discussion about energy, it's worth remembering these three rules:

You can't get ahead. You can't quit. You can't win.

Physics is a cruel, cruel, mistress.

[Molochio]

"Free energy" is pretty ridiculous. What, exactly, do you think Tesla found?

And Frank, while you're right, Molochio and Midnight are ALSO insane. There are no scientists being assasinated. There is no buying of patents and then setting them on fire. It's simply not happening.

And if a petroleum company DID find a way to produce energy for all, they would still make money off of petroleum, because as mentioned above, there are LOTS AND LOTS of other uses that will NEVER go away. If the wild-eyed, insane conspiracy theorist numskulls can't even read the thread, I don't see why they insist on barging in.

Your view is a rather close minded one but I will address it.
I would like you to consider the logic of what you are saying and I am willing to help you in this regard.
First off, the claim that I am "insane" is a poorly constructed ad hominem attack, which I shall dismiss.

Your reasoning states that P - Tesla free energy studies are ridiculous i.e. not worthy of consideration.
(This is problematic for your argument because the government DOES NOT care about ridiculous nonfunctional patents, with no practical applications, enough to secure them and privatize them for exclusive holding.
Thus your reasoning fails at Q - the government would not secure the Tesla free energy studies.

This reads as:
If P, then Q.
Not Q.
Therefore, not P.
(Modus Tollens)

Example: If Tesla free energy studies are ridiculous, then the government ignored them.
The government did not ignore them.
Therefore, Tesla free energy studies are not ridiculous.

Moving on.

At no point in any argument have I made mention of petroleum so this is irrelevant. If you wish to carry on a deliberation on that subject matter, feel free to do so with Midnight, Frank, Tzor, and others who are speaking on it.

As for scientists assassination and patent control, I admit there is some conjecture on my behalf. However, I will explain my reasoning. Government buys scientists and patents.
This is seen historically with Operation Paperclip after WWII to deny German scientific knowledge and expertise to the USSR and the UK.
Some of these scientists were even war criminals, so that should give you some idea of the degree of importance the aquisition and control of workable scientific know how has in and to government.

The other very effective way of denying scientific knowledge to others is to destroy it. Hence, my conjecture.

And finally, I did read the thread and simply CHOSE to share my thoughts on a matter that was of more interest to me. This is a thing that is allowed in my country. We call it "freedom of speech."

[Zinegata]

If Tesla really made a free energy machine (which, BTW, violates the "You can't get ahead, you can't quit, and you can't win" laws of physics), then your argument that it's being kept secret by the government falls apart for a simple reason:

World War 2.

America spent billions on the Manhattan Project to make a nuclear bomb. Why would they need to develop such a superweapon, if they already had Tesla superweapons in the patent office?

So not only does the Tesla super tech fail to conform to science, it also fails to conform to history as well.

Because the government wouldn't have had to build an atomb bomb if Tesla's stuff (including an alleged Earthquake machine) actually worked.

[Orca]

Molochio, I think your argument relies on perfect knowledge and competence on the part of the government if it is to be definitely true. Also, it requires no one outside America rediscovering a working model of free energy, despite a great deal of effort invested (mostly by crackpots, true).

[DragonChild]

Your entire argument hinges on these patents existing. Cite that they exist, and that you're not just following the mad ramblings of an insane conspiracy theorist?

Cite that you actually understand the basic laws of physics?

[Molochio]

If Tesla really made a free energy machine (which, BTW, violates the "You can't get ahead, you can't quit, and you can't win" laws of physics), then your argument that it's being kept secret by the government falls apart for a simple reason:

World War 2.

America spent billions on the Manhattan Project to make a nuclear bomb. Why would they need to develop such a superweapon, if they already had Tesla superweapons in the patent office?

So not only does the Tesla super tech fail to conform to science, it also fails to conform to history as well.

Because the government wouldn't have had to build an atomb bomb if Tesla's stuff (including an alleged Earthquake machine) actually worked.

You can not discount the validity of Tesla's work on the basis that an atomic bomb was researched and used. The government WOULD and did build such a bomb, even if the "earthquake machine" was a viable option for the same reason it has developed such a wide array of fighter jets.

Having options when it comes time to destroy and enemy is appealing.
A big bomb sends a very clear message. An earthquake is comparatively rather vague.
Speaking of which, even his machine is not so far fetched considering the existence of the:

U.N. 1976 Weather Weapon Treaty

(Excerpt)
"It is the understanding of the Committee that the following examples are illustrative of phenomena that could be caused by the use of environmental modification techniques as defined in Article II of the Convention: earthquakes, tsunamis; an upset in the ecological balance of a region; changes in weather patterns (clouds, precipitation, cyclones of various types and tornadic storms); changes in climate patterns; changes in ocean currents; changes in the state of the ozone layer; and changes in the state of the ionosphere.

It is further understood that all the phenomena listed above, when produced by military or any other hostile use of environmental modification techniques, would result, or could reasonably be expected to result, in widespread, long-lasting or severe destruction, damage or injury.

Thus, military or any other hostile use of environmental modification techniques as defined in Article II, so as to cause those phenomena as a means of destruction, damage or injury to another State Party, would be prohibited. It is recognized, moreover, that the list of examples set out above is not exhaustive."

Feel free to go read the whole treaty sometime.

It will give you some idea of the sheer seriousness with which such a thing is considered by nations.

[Molochio]

Your entire argument hinges on these patents existing. Cite that they exist, and that you're not just following the mad ramblings of an insane conspiracy theorist?

Cite that you actually understand the basic laws of physics?

Study history.

[DragonChild]

I understand. You admit that you have no evidence, everyone is supposed to take it on faith, worship the all-glorious Tesla who managed to invent perpetual energy and earthquake machines and built a robotic unicorn who shat candy, and accept that the big evil governments all over the world have teamed up to assassinate scientists without anyone noticing.


Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah you're insane.

[cthulhu]

Molochio, I think your argument relies on perfect knowledge and competence on the part of the government if it is to be definitely true. Also, it requires no one outside America rediscovering a working model of free energy, despite a great deal of effort invested (mostly by crackpots, true).

It's bizarre - it's like for this to work at all, the US government would have to have never been infilitrated by spies ever.

But it has all the fucking time. If the soviets got their hands on US plan for free energy, they would have built it!

[Surgo]

Spouting the idiotic idea that the government is holding on to some super-secret free energy technology is like whipping out your dick and pissing all over every single scientist and engineer working in industry, academia, and the government working to fix the energy crisis and simultaneously pissing on every single science-related money granting agency in the federal government, from the National Science Foundation to DARPA to NASA.

I guess what I'm trying to say is fuck you idiot, you don't know shit.

[virgil]

Another theory is that Tesla stated all sorts of stuff, and it is known some of his stuff worked. Much easier, and better safe than sorry, to just buy up everything and go through his notes at their leisure and be at least somewhat secretive about it on the off-chance his peace ray actually worked.

[Zinegata]

You can not discount the validity of Tesla's work on the basis that an atomic bomb was researched and used. The government WOULD and did build such a bomb, even if the "earthquake machine" was a viable option for the same reason it has developed such a wide array of fighter jets.

Except, of course, that Tesla's work would have made the entire atom bomb program unnecessary. Remember: The atom bomb project was done because the Allies were afraid Germany would be able to deploy their superweapons first. So why not deploy these Tesla wonder weapons immediately?

Really, there are only two reasonable conclusions:

1) Tesla's work was taken by the government, found to be crackpot or impractical, hence they started research on something else (The atom bomb)

2) Tesla's work was taken by the government, found to be viable, and was hidden away during a worldwide life or death struggle. While at the same time they decided to develop a whole new branch of superweapons because they'd like a little variety on how they destroyed their cities.

Your position - #2 - is full of "What ifs" and "Maybes" that it becomes a completely irrational argument.

[tzor]

with this in mind, I assume you are in favour of a carbon tax?

I have a lot of complicated reasons (for both sides actually) but in the end, I can't pass the first (or the level zero question). How can you tax something you cannot effectively monitor? I can slap a sensor on a coal plant and measure sulphur, in part because the number of coal plants (covered under such laws) are in fact limited. The carbon tax is a lot like the Medieval king's "soul" or "breath" tax. It's the same reason why the flip side of the carbon tax, the carbon credit doesn't work. How do you really know how much carbon farmer joe took from the atmosphere?

[tzor]

In any discussion about energy, it's worth remembering these three rules:

You can't get ahead. You can't quit. You can't win.

Physics is a cruel, cruel, mistress.

That's enthopy, not energy. You need to remember this one rule.

The sun wastes more energy when it farts than we would ever need as a planet. Our little tiny planet gets all the energy it needs.

A thousand years ago, wars were fought over a rock named salt. Today we can easily make our own salt and no one wages war over it. It's plentiful. Today, we wage war over energy. A thousand years from now, they will say exactly what you just thought. "They waged wars for salt? God they were stupid."

[K]

The very idea that the government wouldn't ever invest in bad or unreasonable research is laughable. They've invested in trying to make gay bombs, weaponizing dolphins, and hundreds of really shitty ideas with poor or false science behind them.

I mean, the US intelligence community still uses polygraphs and that shit has been debunked as terrible science for decades.

[tzor]

I just scanned the various materials, it seems that Tesla was trying to pull from the earth's magnetic field. There were a number of problems with his system; it required a very very good conductor or a very rapid rotating disk, neither was available to him at the time. (Or it had to be really fucking huge.)

I wonder if you could whip one of these things up with super conducting magnets.

[Zinegata]

That's enthopy, not energy. You need to remember this one rule.

No it's not. Matter and energy can only be turned into other forms of matter/energy.

That's why you can't get ahead, you can't quit, and you can't win. You're stuck in a fixed cycle.

The sun wastes more energy when it farts than we would ever need as a planet. Our little tiny planet gets all the energy it needs.

The problem with this line of thinking is that amount of energy released has very little to do with one's ability to properly control and direct that energy.

For instance, we totally know how to get a Fusion reaction going. But we have absolutely no clue as to how we can control the energy released by this reaction except to level an entire city.

Finally: Energy needs are rising. And the sun ain't gonna be there forever. Even if we turn out mass solar power arrays, we're essentially just "borrowing" energy of a star that will eventually run out. Much like how we're currently "borrowing" energy by burning the long-dead corpses of dinosaurs.

[Surgo]

The problem with this line of thinking is that amount of energy released has very little to do with one's ability to properly control and direct that energy.

There is a word for this: "exergy".

The very idea that the government wouldn't ever invest in bad or unreasonable research is laughable.

I'd go even further than that, and say the idea is a flat out contradiction. Research by definition is something with an unknown ending.

[Username17]

Tzor, why do you think we can't estimate the amounts of carbon put into the air or taken out of the air by various things?

Seriously, our estimates of those things are pretty damn good. Mostly because carbon doesn't get created or destroyed by chemical reactions, it merely changes composition.

I short, that's a really really weird argument. Do you honestly believe that we were unable to measure sulfur outputs when we made Sulfer cap-n-trade in the 90s? If that was true, how were we able to use cap-n-trade to effectively reduce acid rain? Because historically, that totally happened.

-Username17

[Maj]

This is problematic for your argument because the government DOES NOT care about ridiculous nonfunctional patents, with no practical applications, enough to secure them and privatize them for exclusive holding.

I think you should check out World's Wackiest Inventions and a host of similar books. Some of this stuff is seriously messed up.

As for free energy, I think Molochio's talking about Tesla's Wardenclyffe Tower {OK, Wikipedia, Tesla, Broadcasting}. As for what he patented, Wikipedia has provided us with a nice list.

When Tesla died, all his papers were, in fact, seized by the US government and declared Top Secret until they could be gone through. They were eventually released to relatives in Yugoslavia and are now housed in the Nikola Tesla Museum in Belgrade, Serbia.

And FWIW, "Wardenclyffe" is an awesome name that I'm totally gonna use for one of my characters.