You could also get it as part of your background if you're using those, I suppose.
And just forego automatically having some skills.
Dungeonomicon Monks
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
Just sort of re-asking this as a general balance question, since it's another class I've found that seems odd to me.Bobikus wrote:And just to add in a general balance question, anyone know how Koumei's Gadgeteer class fares at later levels?
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Gadgeteer_%283.5e_Class%29
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Judging__Eagle
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Yeah, suggested the background to my DM if I wrote shit up for it, with one exotic and one martial instead of 3 martial, since some monk weapons are already exotic. He's still undecided on whether or not to let the background range light armor prof for a monk though.Judging__Eagle wrote:Veteran of the War is good for exotic or martial, weapon profs.
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Judging__Eagle
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Oh whooptie-doo, you can wear armour, and don't have terribad Touch AC. Honestly, you'll hardly notice it, and will still get beaten bloody by monsters.
You need to be rocking miss chance or ACs on a scale of about 20 + Your level ^2 (so, 21, 24, 29, 45 (lvl 5), 56 (lvl 6), etc.) to actually not get hit by most attacks. The former is likely, the latter is possible, but unlikely. The highest AC I've seen around the level 6 Powerband was a 52, and that involved Knowledge (The Planes) identification surfing, and Alter Self shenanagins.
Honestly, your DM is weak in the head if they really think "letting the monk wear a chain shirt" is going to break their game.
.... on the other hand, I'm the opposite of most DMs. I want to see the PCs 1) get optimized all out and 2) curbstomp their enemies, which means I can bring out more powerful challenges next time (muah!).
Of course, this is mostly because I find that gaming tends to be more memorable when it's challenging. You remember the 45-minute brawl against Lacedons at level 1; you don't care about the ten Fire Giants to stomped in half a minute with your Barbarian at level 10 (their Boss you maybe remember, but that's b/c the "Troll Mage" now inhabits the body).
I want to give my players challenging and memorable sessions. That involves taking the kid gloves off, and I want Players to be confident, and knowledgeable, about their characters before I throw things that might force them to run away if they flub their choice of actions.
You need to be rocking miss chance or ACs on a scale of about 20 + Your level ^2 (so, 21, 24, 29, 45 (lvl 5), 56 (lvl 6), etc.) to actually not get hit by most attacks. The former is likely, the latter is possible, but unlikely. The highest AC I've seen around the level 6 Powerband was a 52, and that involved Knowledge (The Planes) identification surfing, and Alter Self shenanagins.
Honestly, your DM is weak in the head if they really think "letting the monk wear a chain shirt" is going to break their game.
.... on the other hand, I'm the opposite of most DMs. I want to see the PCs 1) get optimized all out and 2) curbstomp their enemies, which means I can bring out more powerful challenges next time (muah!).
Of course, this is mostly because I find that gaming tends to be more memorable when it's challenging. You remember the 45-minute brawl against Lacedons at level 1; you don't care about the ten Fire Giants to stomped in half a minute with your Barbarian at level 10 (their Boss you maybe remember, but that's b/c the "Troll Mage" now inhabits the body).
I want to give my players challenging and memorable sessions. That involves taking the kid gloves off, and I want Players to be confident, and knowledgeable, about their characters before I throw things that might force them to run away if they flub their choice of actions.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
JE, a CR 5 troll has +9 to hit. You do not need a fucking 45 AC at level 5. You are retarded. Getting an AC of around 20+level*2 gets things missing you more often than not.
A level 1 orc warrior has +6 to hit when charging. You can't actually afford to get your AC above 19 or so even with a shield, but that's enough to miss more often than not.
Getting an AC of 29 at level 5 is kind of doable (10 base, 2 deflection, 2 enhancement, 6 base, 1 NA, 4 wisdom gets you 25, which is 80% miss rate).
The problem isn't that AC doesn't scale enough. It's that in base 3E you not only have an absolute cap on AC without being a spellcaster of about 45, but it's also gets too expensive to be worth it for that next point of AC.
Under tomes, having an AC monsters miss is actually totally doable.
A level 1 orc warrior has +6 to hit when charging. You can't actually afford to get your AC above 19 or so even with a shield, but that's enough to miss more often than not.
Getting an AC of 29 at level 5 is kind of doable (10 base, 2 deflection, 2 enhancement, 6 base, 1 NA, 4 wisdom gets you 25, which is 80% miss rate).
The problem isn't that AC doesn't scale enough. It's that in base 3E you not only have an absolute cap on AC without being a spellcaster of about 45, but it's also gets too expensive to be worth it for that next point of AC.
Under tomes, having an AC monsters miss is actually totally doable.
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Judging__Eagle
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My mistake, I meant an AC of 35 by level 5-6; you know, b/c Hill Giants start showing up around then. I kid you not. A whole level before they come online, published adventures seriously throw a CR 7 melee-capable Catapult and a bunch of dire wolves to screen at level 5-6 PCs.
The Orc only is a lower tier creature to a level 1 character, the PC is expected to kill the Orc. A pair of Orcs, per level 1 PC, that's an encounter that actually 50/50's groups.
Getting the AC is possible, and you've identified the major issue of exponential cost for linear growth. It's a rather annoying thing.
My own experiences with it have started with us, as players, "trading in" lower +plus rings (and other items) to increase our actually used/owned gear's bonuses in our 2e games. As well as having us roll our own treasure, and my brother's incredible luck panning out again and netting him a +6 Ring for his 10th lvl Samurai (the one that would roll crit after crit on the Final monster we'd usually face; and had an 18/00 str, which made one of this Class Kit's special powers (set Str to 18/00 for X time), useless.
Going from the herky-jerky of trying to acquire equipment during the campaign, and not throwing off the story; to the much more seamless method of auto-scaling items is actually really pleasant.
The Orc only is a lower tier creature to a level 1 character, the PC is expected to kill the Orc. A pair of Orcs, per level 1 PC, that's an encounter that actually 50/50's groups.
Getting the AC is possible, and you've identified the major issue of exponential cost for linear growth. It's a rather annoying thing.
My own experiences with it have started with us, as players, "trading in" lower +plus rings (and other items) to increase our actually used/owned gear's bonuses in our 2e games. As well as having us roll our own treasure, and my brother's incredible luck panning out again and netting him a +6 Ring for his 10th lvl Samurai (the one that would roll crit after crit on the Final monster we'd usually face; and had an 18/00 str, which made one of this Class Kit's special powers (set Str to 18/00 for X time), useless.
Going from the herky-jerky of trying to acquire equipment during the campaign, and not throwing off the story; to the much more seamless method of auto-scaling items is actually really pleasant.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
120 AC at level 10 is stupid, and you should feel stupid.Judging__Eagle wrote:My mistake, I meant an AC of 35 by level 5-6; you know, b/c Hill Giants start showing up around then. I kid you not. A whole level before they come online, published adventures seriously throw a CR 7 melee-capable Catapult and a bunch of dire wolves to screen at level 5-6 PCs.
The Orc only is a lower tier creature to a level 1 character, the PC is expected to kill the Orc. A pair of Orcs, per level 1 PC, that's an encounter that actually 50/50's groups.
Getting the AC is possible, and you've identified the major issue of exponential cost for linear growth. It's a rather annoying thing.
My own experiences with it have started with us, as players, "trading in" lower +plus rings (and other items) to increase our actually used/owned gear's bonuses in our 2e games. As well as having us roll our own treasure, and my brother's incredible luck panning out again and netting him a +6 Ring for his 10th lvl Samurai (the one that would roll crit after crit on the Final monster we'd usually face; and had an 18/00 str, which made one of this Class Kit's special powers (set Str to 18/00 for X time), useless.
Going from the herky-jerky of trying to acquire equipment during the campaign, and not throwing off the story; to the much more seamless method of auto-scaling items is actually really pleasant.
For reference, your formula is 20+level^2. At level 10, that number is 120.