why is this race a PC race?

[shadzar]

Just doesn't seem to like it being "core"

the thing is D&D wasnt set out to be "kitchen sink" RPing. the attraction for many was the medieval. not just those grogs of winter fantasy past and war-gaming, but those that came in when D&D became an established RPG.

Dude, I'm calling bullshit. Major influences on early D&D include REH's Conan (which is ancient world sword-and-sandal stuff) and Edgar Rice Burroughs (which is swashbuckling sci-fantasy). Not to mention just plain weirdness, like Moorcock and Vance and whatnot. "Medieval" as only one of a great many genres tossed into a very large sink.

you call bullshit all you like, but look at the game. what from Vance was used really? a system of magic knocked-off and trimmed for the game. how much else? what is in it form Moorcock? REALLY what? is it the theme or mechanics?

Conan.. you think that ancient world doesnt exist within medieval fantasy? are you blind or stupid?

Greyhawk and Blackmoor are PERSONAL campaigns. they are settings, supplements, options. they are NOT the game, nor required.

Fighting man
Magic-user
Cleric

these all fit within medieval at the core, as well does humancentricity.

these are the core, and WHY everything else CAN be added. also Tolkien was the MOST HEAVILY influencing thing to D&D, else there wouldnt have been Nazgul (wraith), Ents (treant), and Hobbits (halflings), in it to begin with.

where did Tolkien set his design space? feudalism and medieval structure.

go for Narnia, without heavy christian overtones, and likewise this Brit drew upon the backgrounds the same as Tolkien...from his area as well as well known myth and legends.

can feudalism be used outside of medieval times, of course it can and often does even in futuristic settings Xenosaga, Tytania, Star Wars, etc. but it is most well known in the older world. Castles and dungeons are more advanced terms and ideas than Conan's times. you didnt go to prison, you became a slave for your crimes then. so anyone with common sense should see the starting point that allows for further addition and change is medieval.. jsut as was printed in and on OD&D books, and is still printed.


coins, not paper money or credit cards, no machines or industry...it is the dark ages and even before such refined times. go read a history book and the ages of man, and you tell me exactly where the core of D&D fits best. you will find it fits with most of its themes exactly as was printed on those initial books.. Medieval.

because you CAN add stuff to it as it is not a restrictive system since the D&D police can't come and take your books away, does NOT change its core, be that for classes, theme, or even races as this thread is about.

[hyzmarca]

you call bullshit all you like, but look at the game. what from Vance was used really? a system of magic knocked-off and trimmed for the game. how much else? what is in it form Moorcock? REALLY what? is it the theme or mechanics?

The Entire Law-Chaos axis was ripped off from Moorcock. Hell, the Great Wheel cosmology with it's gigantic multiverse heled together by the balance of massive inhuman cosmic forces is a direct expansion of Moorcock's multiverse, it just adds the Good-Evil axis in addition.

Conan.. you think that ancient world doesnt exist within medieval fantasy? are you blind or stupid?

No, Conan has very different technological and sociological assumptions.

where did Tolkien set his design space? feudalism and medieval structure.

Tolkien's biggest design spaces were christian mythology and the The Ring of the Nibelung. The biggest thing he takes from feudalism is the concept of Divine Right monarchy.

go for Narnia, without heavy christian overtones, and likewise this Brit drew upon the backgrounds the same as Tolkien...from his area as well as well known myth and legends.

Narnia is mostly talking animals and Lion Jesus. It doesn't really have a social structure or technology. Exceptions are just tacked on as necessary.

coins, not paper money or credit cards, no machines or industry...it is the dark ages and even before such refined times. go read a history book and the ages of man, and you tell me exactly where the core of D&D fits best. you will find it fits with most of its themes exactly as was printed on those initial books.. Medieval.

The theme park version, possibly. The thing is, the real middle ages do not resemble any D&D settings all that much.

[shadzar]

1. how is ANY of the Moorcock material NOT medieval in nature or leads to prove that the game is NOT medieval in nature? are you saying this msut exist only OUTSIDE of medieval fiction?

2. start a new thread, and define how Conan doesnt work in medieval. polytheism, its there. regional control feudalism..its there. swords and magic at the same time.. its there.

3. christianity falls to the side of the road when the elves dont die. yeah that story is pretty much where he got the basic of his story form, what is the point? Sauron was not by divine right, but was a monarch of his territory. feudalism also included king by capture such as the Huns and such. it is about the hierarchy and social structure and classes not just how you became king.

4. Narnia still has the king as the ruler and the Christ Lion is the king of kings...Jesus/God.. whatever. it still has the social clases broken down into a heirarchy.

5. this you are going to have to define more clearly, because other than a single request either here or ENWorld for someone wanting MORE medieval out of the game and that being his problem, it still is medieval. most people just dont play to the fullest of the harsh times. you handwave the chamberpots being tossed on the streets, etc.

The Middle Ages (adjectival form: medieval, mediaeval or mediæval) is a periodization of European history, encompassing the period from the 5th century to the 15th century.

how exactly does it NOT fit within those periods based on technology and philosophy of the times?

[John Magnum]

Does shadzar think that there were literal wizards and magic-casting clerics back in the 1400s? With him, I actually can't be sure he doesn't.

This word vomit about medieval and what stuff should be core and what stuff should be optional and his boner for an absurdly-limited paradigm of what settings should be in core D&D is even more confusing than a lot of his other nonsense.

[shadzar]

Does shadzar think that there were literal wizards and magic-casting clerics back in the 1400s? With him, I actually can't be sure he doesn't.

did your mom think the dog was a human when she fucked it and had you as a result?

can you be any more fucking stupid?

magic doesnt belong in middle ages you state? ever heard of Arthurian legend? Merlin....

ever heard of Shakespeare?

paganism?

these are including the myths of the times. you cant be so stupid as to think because Vance had wizards, that they dont fit, else where did Merlin myth come from? when you find Camelot you can speak to what really existed, but the fact magic exists in the myth, it allows not requiring vance to get magic into a medieval setting. it isnt like D&D was the first to mention wizardry in medieval times.

even up unto 1700 USA there was prominent belief in magic and witches existing.. so including magic again isnt far fetched.

not to mention, contrary to that one persons wishes to be medieval simulation, D&D isnt the real world, just modeled upon a fitting era.

an absurdly-limited paradigm of what settings should be in core D&D

are you the retard on the WotC forums? that Emerikol person that thinks core means the same kind of stupid shit 4th tried to make it.

sorry to inform you but the core should be simple, have a NARROW focus, and then let you add onto it.

limited is EXACTLY what core should and MUST be since capturing the "feel" of B/X and BECMI must be maintained within the goal.

the other shit will be part of the modular design. maybe you should fucking read something about 5e before acting like you know what is even being discussed dumb fuck.

but your core would be some diaper wearing RPGer that thinks mushing Realmslore, Krynn, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Mystara, Greyhack and the rest all together into a singular world will work, without thinking how much of a pile of shit incongruous, incomprehensible, and inconsistent mess it would be.

Core = a potato

the optional shit if found at the potato bar at Wendy's. they dont put shit on it you dont want you have the choice what to put on it yourself.

that is what 5e strives with modular design, so the shit that is optional is NOT core, and thus in the modules you can ADD later, be they rules modules or content modules.

sorry, 5e will look NOTHING like 3.x or 4.x when it comes out, it will look MUCH more like TSR-D&D, pre-AD&D. including but not limits to rules complexity and races, classes, etc.

that is the ONLY way to make the modular components be additive. there would be no functioning game if you had everything in it and it was subtractive, because the "core" game wouldnt work with conflicting sub-systems from across the editions.

learn what 5e design goal is, and learn what options are...might help you to buy a car one day when you are old enough to. you will know the difference between the basic car, and the options they are trying to stick you with that you dont need. cause they will ADD options you wont, but are unlikely to remove an existing option.

[...You Lost Me]

Core = a potato