Character Optimization request thread.

[Koumei]

One thing to look at is using a bludgeoning weapon + Greater whatever the spell that makes you use a bigger bludgeoning weapon.

Greater Mighty Wallop, from Races of the FanboyDragon

[Duke Flauros]

Greater Mighty Wallop, from Races of the FanboyDragon

Greater Mighty Wallop increases weapon damage by five size categories, and only works on blunt melee weapons. Earth hammer from races of stone turns your melee weapon into an admantine blunt weapon and increases damage die by one step. You can combine both spells on the same weapon, for up to a six step increase in damage- so a pixie's tiny greataxe would deal 12d6 base damage, or a kobold's small greataxe would deal 12d8.

[Cynic]

I have a two man group of low to mid-upper level skills at playing the game.

Would a tome gestalt team be too powerful? level 1 or 2 is the intended session. I know it might be too much but I want to see how it works.

[NineInchNall]

Would a tome gestalt team be too powerful? level 1 or 2 is the intended session. I know it might be too much but I want to see how it works.

At level 1 or 2? Not at all. It gets silly by level 20, but by then who gives a flying fuck - the game's already off the rails with normal characters.

Go ahead. I've run gestalt tome for two players before, and it worked quite well, since it meant they had more of the bases covered. Just remember that the encounter guidelines in the gestalt section are the reverse of what actually is the case. Since there's generally less multiclassing in gestalt ('cause no one knows how it's supposed to work) the PCs' saves are actually their weak point, whereas the encounter balancing section thinks they're the strong point.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So. I've been asked to participate in a FATE game for the first time by some guys who are pretty skilled in min-maxing, so I don't feel bad about asking you this:

For a comedic low-powered Heroic Fantasy game, how do I make the best Magic Swordsman character available? That is, if I was going to use a D&D analogy a Battle Cleric without all of the gods and shit. I'd like to be able to support the other party members a little bit with a specific stunt or extra but I can't think of an appropriate stunt with precedence.

Beyond that, though, what kind of min-max advice do you guys have for making this vision come true? Or just general powergaming advice in general. Tell me even the obvious ones like 'grab as many stunts as you can'.

[Avoraciopoctules]

So. I've been asked to participate in a FATE game for the first time by some guys who are pretty skilled in min-maxing, so I don't feel bad about asking you this:

For a comedic low-powered Heroic Fantasy game, how do I make the best Magic Swordsman character available? That is, if I was going to use a D&D analogy a Battle Cleric without all of the gods and shit. I'd like to be able to support the other party members a little bit with a specific stunt or extra but I can't think of an appropriate stunt with precedence.

Beyond that, though, what kind of min-max advice do you guys have for making this vision come true? Or just general powergaming advice in general. Tell me even the obvious ones like 'grab as many stunts as you can'.

If it's Fate CORE, you'll need to explain how magic works in the setting. Can you use Lore to attack? Can you take Energy Blast and then stack perks on top of it? Can you access weapons and armor better than rank 2?

[Lago PARANOIA]

It's FATE CORE, there are no special rules for magic -- magic works like it does for that Zird character and we're pretty much allowed to use the precedents set in the rules like a custom stunt where you force a disadvantage 1/scene.

[Avoraciopoctules]

It's FATE CORE, there are no special rules for magic -- magic works like it does for that Zird character and we're pretty much allowed to use the precedents set in the rules like a custom stunt where you force a disadvantage 1/scene.

Well, that might be unfortunate.

For Zird’s magic, the group decides that they want to keep things pretty low-key and abstract—it’s just another method of solving problems, like Landon’s martial arts or Cynere’s swordthiefery (which Lily insists is a technical term)—a highly trained wizard is to be feared as much as a highly trained swordsman, but no more.

They agree that it influences the story for several reasons. They imagine vistas full of unknowable magical effects and plot devices for Zird to stick his nose in, as well as the Collegia’s territorial desire over the lore. They decide that Zird’s magic will let someone interact with the supernatural in a way that other people simply can’t do, and can affect and harm people, but again, they stress that it shouldn’t be more powerful than other skills. Basic effects would just use the normal four actions, and rituals will use challenges, contests, or conflicts as appropriate.

Specifically, they rule out the presence of world-altering “high” magic, creating things out of thin air, firebombing whole cities, and so forth. If those things exist, it’s a thread for a scenario, and the product of several people making huge sacrifices.

The group doesn’t see magic influencing other skills much,
which helps it keep its compartmentalized nature.

Using Zird’s magic is all about the weird. Ryan imagines making up odd lists of requirements and ingredients that don’t really follow a consistent pattern—some things he can do quickly, others he can’t, and it’s all about dramatic interest in the moment to determine which is when. The group is comfortable with this looseness, so they assent.

If you want to use magic to "support" other party members, you are probably best off taking a magical aspect and using Fate points boost attempts to create advantages. Custom stunts aren't so great if you aren't allowed to use magic to directly buff other people's skills. At least you don't have to worry about a mana or stress cost for casting.

You're probably not going to able to take something like Energy Blast, but see if you can get an Extra that gives you a bonus to creating advantages.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, what's the minimum amount of rules deviation/expanded rules presentation would I need to make that dream come to life?

Regardless, say that idea of a support Battle Cleric is not really feasible. How about just a Batman/James Bond? That is, a character well-suited to be the Mary Sue VAH(ish) protagonist in a heroic fantasy movie because they have some oddly narratively versatile schtick (like Crafts or Investigate) or they're taking advantage of quirks in the rules engine like 'Part 1: Scooby Doo + Five Stunts' and 'Part 2: NOVA!'?

[Chamomile]

Well, what's the minimum amount of rules deviation/expanded rules presentation would I need to make that dream come to life?

A functional magic system. The thing to understand about FATE Core is that it does not come with a working magic system. It gives you the tools to make a functioning magic system. It provides helpful suggestions as to how you might make a functioning magic system. Those are kind of neat because they work well when applied to other genre-specific gimmicks not present in the rules. It has a supplement with functioning magic systems (and other stuff) in it. But Zird's stuff is extremely simplified compared to what an actual magic system would require. FATE Core wins points for being easy to modify, and for providing encouragement and advice to GMs to modify it. It is not, however, a complete game for any of the genres its examples cover.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It has a supplement with functioning magic systems (and other stuff) in it.

Please elaborate. I see Psychic Powers on the website and while the people at my group are okay with the source and explanation I don't think that they'll much care for, well, it's pretty blatant 'do anything'-ness. Or am I missing something?

[Chamomile]

My copy is actually a beta version I acquired like two months ago from a Mysterious Benefactor. Come to think of it I am not certain the complete sourcebook is actually publicly available. The actual book you'd be looking for is the FATE Core Toolkit, though.

[Lago PARANOIA]

All right, let's put that to the side for a second and talk tactics for a bit.

Specifically, what are the good 'generic' skills in your opinion? As in, they come pre-packaged with a lot of spoon that you want (like Lore), they have some kind of extra effect (like Will), they're easy to use to set up favorable Aspects (like Craft), or when used artfully they can replace other skills (Deceive replacing Stealth).

Furthermore, when it comes to stunts, which of the non-standard stunts (like skill replacement or bonuses) do you see come up? Is, say, hiding or misrespenting your aspects worth it? What about something like Killing Stroke from the Fight skill?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Magic Stuff can be found in Fate System Toolkit, page 75

[Mask_De_H]

All right, let's put that to the side for a second and talk tactics for a bit.

Specifically, what are the good 'generic' skills in your opinion? As in, they come pre-packaged with a lot of spoon that you want (like Lore), they have some kind of extra effect (like Will), they're easy to use to set up favorable Aspects (like Craft), or when used artfully they can replace other skills (Deceive replacing Stealth).

Furthermore, when it comes to stunts, which of the non-standard stunts (like skill replacement or bonuses) do you see come up? Is, say, hiding or misrespenting your aspects worth it? What about something like Killing Stroke from the Fight skill?

Awareness is your Perception and your Initiative. It is good.
Craft with clever applications allows for a lot of bullshit. Add that "always have necessary tools" stunt and you're an Advantage machine at worst and fucking MacGyver at best.
Lore is "I can make up anything I want about the world if my roll is high enough". Take I Read That In A Book. Just do it.
Athletics is dodge and passive defense, Might is passive defense sorta and can be bullshitted into face punching.

[NineInchNall]

So, with a 28 pt buy: Seeing as I've never played a cleric - like ever - is not maxing Wis something clerics actually do?

[Avoraciopoctules]

Which system? 3.5 or Pathfinder?

[Grek]

So, with a 28 pt buy: Seeing as I've never played a cleric - like ever - is not maxing Wis something clerics actually do?

It depends. If you're playing a buffing cleric or other cleric build that doesn't need big save DCs, then wisdom needs to only be high enough to cast spells of your level and get bonus spells for lower level, not maxed. 16 or so starting wisdom is plenty. If you're planning to do anything that forces a save, then Wis should be as big as possible.

[NineInchNall]

Which system? 3.5 or Pathfinder?

3.5 all the way.

It depends. If you're playing a buffing cleric or other cleric build that doesn't need big save DCs, then wisdom needs to only be high enough to cast spells of your level and get bonus spells for lower level, not maxed. 16 or so starting wisdom is plenty. If you're planning to do anything that forces a save, then Wis should be as big as possible.

This is what I was suspecting. I'm making the character as something of an enabler (i.e., every knowledge, persistent mass lesser vigor) for the rest of the party who are not the most system-savvy.

[NineInchNall]

Partially because it's been so long since I actually played D&D, I'm having difficulty of late making characters that are not at least one of these:
•Full, or near-full casters
•Martial Adepts
•Full, or near-full manifesters
•Rogues
•Uberchargers
•AoO monkeys
•Subsystem abusers; e.g., Diplomancers, Cancer Mages, etc.

Every time I try to build something using one of the old standbys like Dervish, I can't help but think that what I'm doing could be better accomplished by one of the above. This leaves me in something of a pickle when trying to give advice to less mechanically savvy players.

For instance, the other day someone asked for advice about an upcoming game in which he wants to play the party's primary tank. I was like, "Cool," and started to say something about Stand Still, when he continued: "Yeah, so I'm gonna be a kender Swashbuckler with TWF and TWD, and ..."

So I was left trying to figure out how to rescue the character with these restrictions: PHB, Dragonlance, and Complete Warrior only. And anything outside of the PHB requires that oh-so-annoying DM Special Stamp of Approval. And none of my standby options was acceptable. Because reasons. I wracked my brain thinking of something a small character might do using just core+CW and, remembering that it got some love back in the day, tossed out Dervish as a sort of Hail Mary. Apparently Dervish is appealing. However, looking at the class in the cold light of day and thinking about builds, I can't for the life of me figure out how it's supposed to do level appropriate things. +5 to hit/damage? Whoooooo.

Now, I've never been much for playing noncasters in 3.x. I think I've only ever played one once, and even that was a Stand Still/Thicket of Blades/Inhuman Reach martial adept - and never reached level 8. I was going to play a Bloodstorm Blade at one point, but the DM banned ToB before I could play it, because "all day maneuvers are better than spells."

So, here's my character optimization request: Please to be reminding me of build types that do interesting, level-appropriate things that don't fall into the above categories.

[...You Lost Me]

Can't you just play a cleric? Or is this for the guy who what's to TWF and be a kender?

Just let him do his thing, and be a cleric or a druid.

[NineInchNall]

I'm not in said game. I'm more asking out of curiosity, since people like kender-dude keep asking me for character-building advice and aren't willing to do any of the things in The List.

[Voss]

What he wants just makes me shudder, on several levels simultaneously.

I mean sure, people do make characters like that. But it is simultaneously useless and contrary to both sense and the concept of 'kender' (though the latter might be a good thing in some way, the idioms of swashbuckling don't jive well with child-like innocence and indifferent kleptomania). But I'm not sure what the character is going to do. It is poor-to-mediocre at everything, even the half-assed skills game. A summoned monster is going to be less annoying and more effective all the time, and the rest of the party is going to want to kill him on general (and completely supportable) principles.

You just can't optimize something so terrible.

[Archmage Joda]

I would appreciate some optimization advice as well. My group is going to be playing pathfinder this weekend, and I've decided to go way out of my usual MO and instead make a barbarian. I have attributes figured out, and human barbarian level 3, but I'm unsure of what feats and rage powers to take/aim for. Any advice there, with all pathfinder, but only pathfinder, materials allowed?

[Dean]

Alright before we start into this you should know that the Pathfinder Barbarian is hot garbage. It's the closest thing I can imagine to picking no class at all. Its class features and abilities range in power from "barely there" to "actively negative". However if that's what you're gonna do lets try to make you have some fun things to do at least.

For race consider the Strix. It's in the Advanced Races Guide and gives you a 60 foot fly speed from level one, a +2 dex/-2 charisma, stealth always as a class skill, and a +1 to attacks against human enemies. It's a dex race and not a strength race so it won't help you hit that hard but since you're a barbarian you'll suck at damage no matter what we do really.

For archetypes consider the Wild Rager from Ultimate Combat. It gives you an extra attack at the cost of -2 to hit, -4 to ac and for the chance of becoming Confused when you kill people if you fail a will save. However since confused people automatically attack back anyone who attacks them it basically just means under the worst of circumstances you attack whoever you're fighting anyway. It's weird and it's kinda bad but it's a small offense boost and it seems kinda fun at least.

For rage powers Reckless Abandon is an offense boost, Auspicious Mark is nice to have, and Clear Mind could help with your confusion problem if you take Wild Rager. Scent is one I would take so you can have an anti-invisibility tool. Rage powers suck a thick one for the most part so just try to get stuff that helps you at all.

Feats you should look at are: Power Attack just to do damage anyone cares about to low AC targets. Raging Vitality is considered a big one because it makes it so that your rage doesn't actually KILL YOU every time you hit 0hp and go unconscious. Because normally going unconscious ends your rage which makes you lost the 2hp per level you had FROM the rage. So Rage will backfire and kill you when you lose a fight if you don't have that feat. Furious Focus at low levels can help.....a little. Stand Still and Step Up are cool. Stand Still can maybe maybe help you block people from moving around you and Step Up would be legitimately good if you fight casters or archers or anyone who can just do the 5ft shuffle when you get in their face. Together Stand Still and Step Up and a spiked chain could actually control a little space.

If it was me I might start as a 3rd level Strix Wild Rager Barbarian with a Reach weapon, Power Attack, Stand Still, and the rage powers Scent and Reckless Abandon. That would give you flight, anti-invisibility, an extra attack per round, hard hits, and the ability to control a 10ft area pretty well. Also sometimes you'll freak out and lose control of your character for a couple rounds so that seems like it'll spice up the experience of sucking relentlessly.