West Marches: 3.5 House Rules

[Midnight_v]

I just think you really actually should able to be the cleric of "Mars" or "Ogun" and be as badass as any melee. I mean thats the real argument for clerics being able to be almost anything. Making, or trying to make them healbots hurts the game, and creates a scenario in which very few people will play them.
Thusly you could replace the damn class with something like crusador all together, with healing strikes if you feel that you have to have that, but very little combat healing actually occurs, its a weird thing that I've only seen really happen full time in MMO's.

Expecting a single 'religious person' class to work is absurd. Religiousness isn't a role or a power; it's a trait. There's no reason that a priest of Mars should have the same class as a priest of Aphrodite, or a different class than an atheist warrior.

If you need a healer class, then fine, make a healer class. But don't force the healer to be religious or force every priest to be a healer.

Man fuck you if your idea is "You're a priest of the WarGod, which is to say you're a figher with somekind of fluff hang up"
No. Motherfuckers are doing the shit WRONG, but there's no fucking reason you can't have a functioning religious dude, who gets stock healing power's (which really the medicine man's whole shit is that he can fix broke shit) AND some kinda war form that puts him on par with the fighter (or a working melee thing).
No reason except you, and a plethora of assholes who think that shits been wrong for so long that the wrongness has become the norm, don't wanna fuck with it but it just sounds so full of fail.

There's no reason that a priest of Mars should have the same class as a priest of Aphrodite, or a different class than an atheist warrior.

This is the part that I take exception to let me be clear. If somone says I want to play a priest of Hextor, and you hand him the "Athiest Warrior Class" and say "Fluff to your liking" you can DO that and make it work but he's pretty much spot on for saying fuck off. I want a character that can fight and has cool workable healing powers.

How does one do a healing class really? I mean is it just by saying: Allow overhealing as temp hp? Or does it need to be that plus massive combat swings.
I mean I'm just throwing darts here but if there was a spell that said "Holy Light" Allies are healed for 50hp, creatures within X ft must make a reflex save or be blinded for X rounds.
What I see is many people trying to fix evocation by putting riders on it like that. I mean BFC and healing together might make the class worthwhile...

[sabs]

I'm still confused why you think a Priest of Mars should have healing spells.

[erik]

I'm still confused why you think a Priest of Mars should have healing spells.

Because surviving battles is important in wars? It's far more sensible than a Priestess of Aphrodite having healing spells anyway.

[Omegonthesane]

I'm still confused why you think a Priest of Mars should have healing spells.

Because surviving battles is important in wars? It's far more sensible than a Priestess of Aphrodite having healing spells anyway.

HP for HP, battlefield control and buffs are better than actual healing at preventing HP damage, and more in keeping with the spirit of War.

How does one do a healing class really?

Like this? (warning: did not revise how good that class is before posting)

[erik]

HP for HP, battlefield control and buffs are better than actual healing at preventing HP damage, and more in keeping with the spirit of War.

You say they should have buffs? Glad we agree here. Healing is an extra hit point buff.

As for which buffs or battlefield control options are better, that totally depends upon the system and the options themselves. As long as we're talking house rules, I've got a keen one. If in 3e DND healers started out with Heal at level 1, that's often (but not always) a better option than Entropic Shield or Wind Wall.

Honestly, Heal wouldn't even be unreasonable to start with at level 1 as it would help melee non-casters since they could wade in and get healed without draining too much cleric resources, and people might be excited about being a healer since that is a significant role. It'd even give them a serviceable anti-undead attack without having to cheese turning levels. It also saves clerics from having to prepare tons of stupid status restoration spells... which I think is a good thing for the system.

And to regress... what 'spirit of War' are you talking about anyway? Spirit of the War domain? I really don't know whatcha mean. Giving inspiration to make the wounded to get up and give one more crucial charge, or to simply say "that wasn't a mortal wound, tis only a scratch!" seems very much in the spirit of battles, and it mirrors the effect of healing.

[sabs]

Aphrodite should have charm/seduction/manipulation spells
Asclepius would be the god with Healing spells. (since we're using Greek settings)


I'm not sure why ,every Priest should have healing spells. That's a christian thing really. Why would a Priest of Queztocoatl have healing spells, that seems antethical to his mandate.

[Midnight_v]

Aphrodite should have charm/seduction/manipulation spells
Asclepius would be the god with Healing spells. (since we're using Greek settings)


I'm not sure why ,every Priest should have healing spells. That's a christian thing really. Why would a Priest of Queztocoatl have healing spells, that seems antethical to his mandate.

Frankly, because I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I'm pretty certain that the idea is "Abrahmatic" but I personally realize that the most people I talk to are going to expect healing class when the terms "priest or cleric" are brought up. Since I don't want to start every session with a conversation about the Orisha's or the Veda's or whatever, I'm going to say "Priest, or Cleric (depending)" and expect everyone to know we're still on speaking terms.

On the topic of the White Mage.
No offense to QuatumBoost. . .
I hate LOOKING at that class. I've only every glanced it but almost every fucking level has almost 3 abilities. Its a "Tome" class so I'm certain that it's been twigged repeatedly and works, but damn it depresses me just HOW much work had to go into making a healer class worthwhile.

[tussock]

So in your games you drastically reduce the healing available to PCs, and you seem to be the only one who's found that PCs can't go into melee against melee monsters. It's pretty funny how you can't see the connection between the two.

You don't stand in melee with the big boys because they can and will kill you in one round. Healing has nothing to do with it. Their full attacks can get around 7.5 damage times their CR before crits, so you maybe take one round vs one of them if you had full health. It's a really stupid thing to do. Play like that seems to be part of why "Fighters suck".

Never wondered why Closet Trolls are a shitty thing for DMs to do? It's that they force you into full-attack melee with a melee monster, eh.

Hell, the default CR and recommended EL system only works at all if you ban healing sticks. It was playtested with the iconic four with crap gear, low-average stats, and no god rods. Better gear and stats doesn't change things much, but infinite healing certainly does.

[Midnight_v]

You don't stand in melee with the big boys because they can and will kill you in one round. Healing has nothing to do with it. Their full attacks can get around 7.5 damage times their CR before crits, so you maybe take one round vs one of them if you had full health. It's a really stupid thing to do. Play like that seems to be part of why "Fighters suck"

Maybe the idea behind that is, well the role prescribed for fighter IS that, and they're really not up to it.

Without dipping into the tome though a Crusader 5 might be able to just flat out solo a troll. I mean sure he'd need an alchemist fire or a tinderwig to really "KILL IT" but thats not unreasonable.

PsyWar 5 and Duskblade 5 too I would think.. I'm not certain of the last 2 though. That type of play is meant to happen, don't you think, if someones whole thing is "fighting man"? I'm not trying to turn it into that thread but I just kinda disagree with what you're implying. I mean how the hell do you out fight a troll at level then? I mean 4 dudes gang bang it.
Though the thing about not standing in its face attacking just sucks for people who think of them selves as fighter. I mean really It's more a deficenty of playable class, than the sad players who bought into the game as sold.

[Omegonthesane]

HP for HP, battlefield control and buffs are better than actual healing at preventing HP damage, and more in keeping with the spirit of War.

You say they should have buffs? Glad we agree here. Healing is an extra hit point buff.

As for which buffs or battlefield control options are better, that totally depends upon the system and the options themselves. As long as we're talking house rules, I've got a keen one. If in 3e DND healers started out with Heal at level 1, that's often (but not always) a better option than Entropic Shield or Wind Wall.

Honestly, Heal wouldn't even be unreasonable to start with at level 1 as it would help melee non-casters since they could wade in and get healed without draining too much cleric resources, and people might be excited about being a healer since that is a significant role. It'd even give them a serviceable anti-undead attack without having to cheese turning levels. It also saves clerics from having to prepare tons of stupid status restoration spells... which I think is a good thing for the system.

And to regress... what 'spirit of War' are you talking about anyway? Spirit of the War domain? I really don't know whatcha mean. Giving inspiration to make the wounded to get up and give one more crucial charge, or to simply say "that wasn't a mortal wound, tis only a scratch!" seems very much in the spirit of battles, and it mirrors the effect of healing.

"'Tis but a scratch" makes me think boatloads of pre-emptively cast temporary HP rather than post-hoc healing, which granted is a minor difference tactically but an important one thematically and strategically.

I don't have a rational and coherent definition of "the spirit of War", unfortunately. However, I would have assumed War would come with largely destructive and combative abilities, to end combat quickly and in your favour rather than to patch people up after combat. You can heal people when the battle is ended.

As for Heal... agreed - even at CL 1, 10 HP is substantially more than the expected damage from one plink, and guaranteed at that, so on both counts worth spending a spell slot on even when 1d8+1 HP is too low to be worthy of casting. Plus, not having to have prepared exactly the right condition cure is handy, especially if you aren't a dumpster diving fan. The only problem I see is that people would start making Heal wands instead of CLW wands, and that's not a fundamental change to HP-sticks.

So in your games you drastically reduce the healing available to PCs, and you seem to be the only one who's found that PCs can't go into melee against melee monsters. It's pretty funny how you can't see the connection between the two.

You don't stand in melee with the big boys because they can and will kill you in one round. Healing has nothing to do with it. Their full attacks can get around 7.5 damage times their CR before crits, so you maybe take one round vs one of them if you had full health. It's a really stupid thing to do. Play like that seems to be part of why "Fighters suck".

Except that Fighters are by fluff and design intent quite explicitly meant to eat a full attack from a CR appropriate encounter - any CR appropriate encounter - and come back laughing for more. A meat shield that cannot protect you from encounters is worthless and should be downsized.

Never wondered why Closet Trolls are a shitty thing for DMs to do? It's that they force you into full-attack melee with a melee monster, eh.

Hell, the default CR and recommended EL system only works at all if you ban healing sticks. It was playtested with the iconic four with crap gear, low-average stats, and no god rods. Better gear and stats doesn't change things much, but infinite healing certainly does.

So it wasn't that they failed to check that CR-appropriate things were actually CR appropriate, or that Wizards doing anything but blasting couldn't trivialise the majority of encouters, or that Clerics can be better Fighters than the Fighter and still have plenty of spells to spare. Nope, all because they assumed a party whose best hope was the 15-minute work day, and then failed to use that strategy.

[tussock]

Fighters are by fluff and design intent quite explicitly meant to eat a full attack from a CR appropriate encounter

Not in my copy of the PHB or any other official book I can recall. That's just you making shit up. The actual fluff for Fighters is code for them getting bonus combat feats which allow them to "develop their fighting skills" faster than other classes. That's all.

So it wasn't that they

... Not counting on unlimited healing wasn't the only thing they missed, but characters with relatively poor save DCs fighting mobs of 6-10 Orcs as a 4th level party hardly encourages 15-minute days. That complaint didn't even take off until well after 3.5 with it's short buff durations and free meta-magic made nova tactics more attractive.

The 3.0 complaints were largely that you turned the party Fighter into a Troll loaded up with multi-hour empowered stat buffs and everyone cast haste on round one of every important fight for the extra partial action, and save DCs went nuts by mid levels if you started with an 18 and used the splatbook mental stat boosters and stacking DC feats and PClasses. The Dragon CR thing they admitted was to get PCs killed by dragons, not a mistake.

[ModelCitizen]

You don't stand in melee with the big boys because they can and will kill you in one round. Healing has nothing to do with it. Their full attacks can get around 7.5 damage times their CR before crits, so you maybe take one round vs one of them if you had full health. It's a really stupid thing to do. Play like that seems to be part of why "Fighters suck".

I don't know where you got this idea that going into melee in a real fight inevitably causes you to die. Yes, a troll can sometimes drop a level 5 fighter all the way to -10, if it hits with its whole claw/claw/bite/rend routine AND the fighter beats it on initiative AND the party fails to kill it before its action. Yes, in that specific situation the fighter might want to hang back. But that situation is statistically unlikely and only happens because Rend monsters have really spiky damage output.

Most CR 4-7 melee monsters do high but predictable damage. 2-3 small dice plus a big static Strength bonus. A 5th level fighter can survive melee against a minotaur or a pair of ogres or a hill giant. He's going to take a shitload of damage, but he has to get pretty unlucky to die. If the monster's dead and you're only mostly dead, mission accomplished, unless your DM took your healing resources away in a misguided attempt to nerf clerics.

[Josh_Kablack]

Re: Quantumboost's White Mage:

I have played one, ran a game with one and been in a third game with someone else playing one.

At 1st level the primary schtick is unlimited out-of-combat healing with minor combat healing, and every once in a while the spontaneous dispelling or faerie fire comes into play.

At 2nd level the multi-target healing means the White Mage wins vs Undead encounters. Which isn't really a bad thing as they aren't dealing much damage to anything else.

At 3rd level, Instant Ward comes online and it is a near-perfect ability. Meaningful enough to keep the player paying attention on other people's turns, yet not failproof. Around here the White Mage has enough spell slots to pseudo-tank due to 3e buff stacking.

Around 5th/6th level the class becomes "I make the party immune to whatever they need - if I can just get enough actions" and that runs into some troubling frustration issues (on both sides of the table)

At 7th, if Spell Compendium is available, the class gets the Double Rainbow Blast for the ability to throw 15d10 AoE damage in a round by burning a pair of top level spell slots.

At 8th, the White Mage gets to start throwing lasers as an attack action, which if Spell Compendium is available allows for Triple Rainbow Blast

The class is not broken by Tome standards, and likely weaker than an optimized core cleric, but it probably could use a revision. And as an opponent of Vancian Casting, I find the cross-referencing necessary for the spell list problematic and would prefer if it got something like "Magic Hands my now cure conditions X & Y" rather than a spell list.

[tussock]

Or you stop failing at D&D and win without taking all that damage. It's like you're suggesting fireball is awesome because you only have to cast more spells to win the same fights, and Wizards are supposed to cast it because it was awesome 20 years ago.

Really. You: melee vs Giants is what fighters are supposed to do because all it does is make you lose more hit points to get the same job done, and fighters are supposed to melee everything because it was awesome 20 years ago.

[ModelCitizen]

Melee suck anyway, but that doesn't change the fact that your proposed "cleric nerf" nerfs the only strategy available to non-caster melee and does not nerf clerics.

Now stop being a fucking baby. I am really tired of watching you kick and scream because you don't want to admit you said something stupid three pages ago.

[tussock]

"Melee" isn't a fucking class. Fighters are proficient with strongbows. Barbarians, Paladins, and melee Rangers too. Melee works great against creatures that are not better at it than you are (like most of the monster manual, particularly casters, undead, golems, bla bla bla), and also if you do any of the dozens of things that steal full attacks from the mobs.

If you don't like reading that, put me on ignore, plenty of others have.

Fuck, man. You're still arguing that Clerics are obviously more powerful if they don't cast healing spells, and also not any less powerful if they do. Stop being stupid in public.

[ModelCitizen]

That's a strawman and you know it. As I recall you're the one who believes taking away cure sticks somehow forces the cleric to hold back Hold Persons that prevent damage to the party because he might "need" to cast Cure Serious Wounds later. Making the game harder forces everyone to play more optimally, not less.

And I'm still not sure how you reconcile that with your apparent belief that Lay on Hands or fucking ranger slots is enough healing to keep a party functional. Remember last page, when you insisted the cleric would be magically forced to waste all his spell slots on healing, and then also said that all you needed to heal a party was paladin class features or some shit? Seriously man, your argument is completely incoherent.

[Archmage]

Re: Quantumboost's White Mage:

I have played one, ran a game with one and been in a third game with someone else playing one.

I really, really like the White Mage. I don't have quite as much experience with it as Josh does, but our WHM was a pretty awesome party member in the Tome E8 RHoD campaign we ran through. The bottomless healing may not be to your taste, however, if you want to run a game where hit points are a resource that has to be managed.

[Omegonthesane]

Re: Quantumboost's White Mage:

I have played one, ran a game with one and been in a third game with someone else playing one.

I really, really like the White Mage. I don't have quite as much experience with it as Josh does, but our WHM was a pretty awesome party member in the Tome E8 RHoD campaign we ran through. The bottomless healing may not be to your taste, however, if you want to run a game where hit points are a resource that has to be managed.

Strictly speaking, so are heal-sticks - you might not get to even a scutwork magic mart before all your instances of 50d8+50 distributable noncombat healing run out.

Of course, if your DM is using XP and you have Craft Wand, I retract that statement wholeheartedly, or whatever the impolite insulting TGD lingo for that is.

[...You Lost Me]

whatever the impolite insulting TGD lingo for that is.

"then fuck you."

[tussock]

That's a strawman and you know it. As I recall you're the one who believes taking away cure sticks somehow forces the cleric to hold back Hold Persons that prevent damage to the party because he might "need" to cast Cure Serious Wounds later.

What hold back? I said, and repeatedly attempted to clarify, that Clerics really do cast cure spells when people get hurt, so that they don't die. I'm still not sure how that's a difficult concept when you don't have infinite healing.

Making the game harder forces everyone to play more optimally, not less.

Yes, and just pay attention for a bit, because starting fights on less than full hit points is not optimal. You end fight #1, it's very likely the Cleric has some spells left and someone has taken some damage. No wand, and you cure it anyway, because optimal tactics on fight #2 start with everyone on full hit points again.

The less stupid you are about fighting Giants in melee (and other poor tactics), the less potential Hold Person spells you all waste getting ready for the next fight. Optimal: you don't seem to understand it at all away from your healing sticks.

And I'm still not sure how you reconcile that with your apparent belief that Lay on Hands or fucking ranger slots is enough healing to keep a party functional. Remember last page, when you insisted the cleric would be magically forced to waste all his spell slots on healing, and then also said that all you needed to heal a party was paladin class features or some shit? Seriously man, your argument is completely incoherent.

Speaking of straw men. Some slots are less than all slots, and more than no slots.

When a party has more healing available, they use less resources on avoiding damage. When a party has zero healing, they use almost all their resources to avoid even trivial amounts of damage. It's not that complicated.

Like to you, rushing into melee and not quite dying (most of the time) is a success, because it frees up the casters for that fight and lets you deal out a lot of damage quickly, as you said. But that's not true any more as healing becomes more costly.


But I'm pretty sure I've said all that and you still can't read it, so whatever. Enjoy your game with your shitty tactics.

[ModelCitizen]

starting fights on less than full hit points is not optimal.

You've spent the last page arguing that physical combat sucks, melee get oneshot every time they go into melee, and you need to control shit to win. Why then would you trade spell slots that win encounters for hitpoints that don't?

And I'm still not sure how you reconcile that with your apparent belief that Lay on Hands or fucking ranger slots is enough healing to keep a party functional. Remember last page, when you insisted the cleric would be magically forced to waste all his spell slots on healing, and then also said that all you needed to heal a party was paladin class features or some shit? Seriously man, your argument is completely incoherent.

Speaking of straw men. Some slots are less than all slots, and more than no slots.

Class healing is not scarce in 3e. At all. It's pretty hard to run out of class healing using the default encounter suggestions, even with just secondary healers.

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep quoting this until either come up with a coherent response to it or admit this whole argument is you throwing a fit because you don't want to admit you were wrong.

[tussock]

You've spent the last page arguing that physical combat sucks, melee get oneshot every time they go into melee, and you need to control shit to win.

There are monsters which are better at melee than the Fighters are.
Dying in one round is possible when you let such things full-attack, and thus to be avoided.
Controlling shit properly avoids those possibilities.

You trade win for hit points because starting fights on less than full hit points gets people killed. It doesn't fucking matter how much win the Cleric has left if the Fighter is already dead (or more that the Rogue or Wizard took a hit or two). Again, this is using the default assumptions of multiple "easy" fights per day, not nova-rest cycles.

Now, you keep quoting things that emphasise slightly different points as if they contradict each other. It's weird, and a little stalkery. Do you understand that a cleric needs to use less of his slots to heal than a ranger, or not? Do you remember your own argument that clerics are more powerful as they spend more slots on non-healing? Do you understand some slots spent on healing is thus some reduction in power? It's really not complicated at all.

Is it that you don't notice your own examples that groups with more healing available tend to take more damage? Like when Fighters rush in and melee Giants, don't quite die, and that's "a good thing"?

[...You Lost Me]

tussock, even I don't understand you.

You're saying that the optimal solution to closet trolls is control, because then you can kill them. And then you're saying that therefore people should trade out slots of healing slots because those are optimal... which is exactly the opposite of your original point.

You are contradicting yourself. Line next to line.

[ishy]

Power wise, isn't it better to let the fighters die so they now have a chance of rolling a real class?