Apparently Expiditious Retreat, Swift Is Broken

Soyweiser · Post by **Soyweiser** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:32 pm

Thanks for the honest explanation. Yeah that game does sound like it sucked. Did you ever confront the DM on it?

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:49 pm

Soyweiser wrote:Thanks for the honest explanation. Yeah that game does sound like it sucked. Did you ever confront the DM on it?

All of that was in my previous posts if you want to spew passive-agressive bullshit at least read the thread first.

As for the DM if three players walking out doesn't convince him of anything then he's probly unsalvageable. Trust me I know his type, finding games in meatspace is hard so I've learned to put up with alot of bullshit.

mikal768 · Post by **mikal768** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:21 pm

Whipstitch wrote:I'm getting the sense that Mikal is the kind of guy who thinks South Park makes salient political points.

Nope. Not especially.

Soyweiser · Post by **Soyweiser** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:44 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:
Soyweiser wrote:Thanks for the honest explanation. Yeah that game does sound like it sucked. Did you ever confront the DM on it?
All of that was in my previous posts if you want to spew passive-agressive bullshit at least read the thread first.

As for the DM if three players walking out doesn't convince him of anything then he's probly unsalvageable. Trust me I know his type, finding games in meatspace is hard so I've learned to put up with alot of bullshit.

Well, calling somebody anti-social isn't really passive aggressive imho. It was a fairly straightforward "I think you where also a dick" remark. As telling is just telling a DM he is making a game unfun for the rest of the players. That would also be straightforward. Walking out of a game after proving your mastery of the game system. I would call that passive aggressive. But lets not continue this discussion.

Most of the gist of the thread I got was stuff like "I abused the rules better than the paladin guy, even when the DM frontloaded all the dice in his favour". I missed the part where some other dude drop out.

Mr. GC · Post by **Mr. GC** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:09 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:They where longtime players (mostly from older editions I'm betting), how it is that people can play for years and not learn optimization 101 escapes me though.

A lot of people manage. The RPGsite almost as a whole and various other people elsewhere all play a game for years and haven't learned shit from it. Hell, I haven't played older editions since I was 12 and I probably know more about those games than the actual grognards that have played them constantly.

For example, you'll see them seriously recommend Haste as a good tactic. This is retarded. Haste magically ages you. Magical aging forces a system shock check. Failing a system shock check means you die. Death by party buff. Anyone that actually knows the system knows that, so you can easily figure out they don't simply by observing their behavior.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:17 pm

Soyweiser wrote:Most of the gist of the thread I got was stuff like "I abused the rules better than the paladin guy, even when the DM frontloaded all the dice in his favour". I missed the part where some other dude drop out.

What the actuall fuck at what point did I abuse the rules. Was it when I took a second string class. Or was it when I used a 2hander like every melee fighter who doesn't want to suck in 3e. Or maybe it was when I took Expeditious Retreat, Swift, because apparently Expeditious Retreat, Swift is broken.

Mr. GC · Post by **Mr. GC** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:27 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:
Soyweiser wrote:Most of the gist of the thread I got was stuff like "I abused the rules better than the paladin guy, even when the DM frontloaded all the dice in his favour". I missed the part where some other dude drop out.
What the actuall fuck at what point did I abuse the rules. Was it when I took a second string class. Or was it when I used a 2hander like every melee fighter who doesn't want to suck in 3e. Or maybe it was when I took Expeditious Retreat, Swift, because apparently Expeditious Retreat, Swift is broken.

It was when you assumed an idiot had something of value to say. That's against the rules.

Soyweiser · Post by **Soyweiser** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:27 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:
Soyweiser wrote:Most of the gist of the thread I got was stuff like "I abused the rules better than the paladin guy, even when the DM frontloaded all the dice in his favour". I missed the part where some other dude drop out.
What the actuall fuck at what point did I abuse the rules. Was it when I took a second string class. Or was it when I used a 2hander like every melee fighter who doesn't want to suck in 3e. Or maybe it was when I took Expeditious Retreat, Swift, because apparently Expeditious Retreat, Swift is broken.

I think it was when you did indeed pick a class from a non core book. You guys where playing two different games. Dm+Paladin where playing core DND books + paladin is mary sue game. You where playing code books + PHB II. End result, nobody had fun.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:30 pm

I don't know, seems like the paladin and dm had a lot of fun at LM's expense, like the dicks they are, until LM dropped the paladin's ass.

violence in the media · Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:33 pm

Soyweiser wrote:I think it was when you did indeed pick a class from a non core book. You guys where playing two different games. Dm+Paladin where playing core DND books + paladin is mary sue game. You where playing code books + PHB II. End result, nobody had fun.

I don't believe your assertion that the class or books Lord Mistborn used would have made any difference. Plus, anyone that wants to play a game of Mary Sue and is looking for other players as sidekicks or supporting cast merits no consideration of their feelings. Those people should have their sandcastles kicked over.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:47 pm

Soyweiser wrote:I think it was when you did indeed pick a class from a non core book. You guys where playing two different games. Dm+Paladin where playing core DND books + paladin is mary sue game. You where playing code books + PHB II. End result, nobody had fun.

I belive the apropriate responce here is "Go suck a barrel of cocks". If you think playing a non-core class especially one like the Duskblade is rules abuse then you are on the level of theRPGsiters and people who eat wallpaper.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:11 pm

Wait, Player's Handbook II isn't core?
I'll remember that next time someone tries to play a Druid.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:32 pm

Lord Mistborn: be fair, there can be good reasons to eat wallpaper if you're hungry. There's a monastery that uses egg yolk as the binding agent, so in a pinch, the shnozzberries might not taste like shnozzberries, but Jesus tastes of egg.

sabs wrote:Wait, Player's Handbook II isn't core?
I'll remember that next time someone tries to play a Druid.

Depends which edition. In 4E, every book ever is core. In 3.X, the PHB, DMG and MM (not PHB II, DMG II, MM II-XIV) are core. Also, the XPH is pseudo-core - it wasn't originally part of the core three, it was never sold in "Core Bundles", and you could get "the core books" with a box that holds them all and that didn't include (or have space for) XPH, but they ended up calling it one and it's included in the SRD (but by the logic of "It's in the SRD", the Epic Level Jokebook and Unearthed Arcana are also core).

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:59 pm

Koumei wrote:Lord Mistborn: be fair, there can be good reasons to eat wallpaper if you're hungry. There's a monastery that uses egg yolk as the binding agent, so in a pinch, the shnozzberries might not taste like shnozzberries, but Jesus tastes of egg.

You're right I'd like to apologize to wallpaper connoisseurs everywhere for comparing them to core only DMs it was uncalled for.

Mr. GC · Post by **Mr. GC** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:56 pm

Well, core only DMs do enjoy chewing on the scenery.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:36 pm

Soyweiser wrote:Mikal, they are avoiding your questions, so I think you are doing something right.

He's not doing anything right; his questions are either naive or passive-aggressive. His stance is essentially "See, but you are the same except for your view points!", which is stupid because view points matter and both parties are not automatically wrong just because they happen to have an argument. View points and ideologies inform our actions and stupid view points lead to stupid things being done to people for stupid reasons. Like for example, inviting people into your games and then treating them like second class citizens because you're too dumb to realize that playing a duskblade like a duskblade is not in fact an act of aggression against everyone else at the table. Inviting people to play and then dicking them around and treating them like Paladin McHeroPants' sidekick--the one guy who is expressly allowed to cheat on his rolls, might I add--is super lame. So while it may be childish to make fun of someone on the internet for doing that, it is also eminently understandable and a fairly entertaining form of catharis.

Mr. GC · Post by **Mr. GC** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:17 pm

I wasn't aware he had any points so how could we ignore them?

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:42 am

Mr. GC wrote:I wasn't aware he had any points so how could we ignore them?

What he said. If there were points made can you spell them out? I missed them or something.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:27 am

This may seem overly inquisitive but I'm actually very curious about the psychology behind your decision to not coup-de-grace the Paladin. I'm not saying you should have, or that you shouldn't have. I'm just very curious as to the processes occurring in your mind as to whether or not you would end his character permanently.

Kudos on the story in general. A real win against assholes Grognards everywhere

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:25 am

When someone kills another party member and then ragequits, it's pretty standard to simply retcon the event out of the game. Doing a coup de grace on the paladin would have made no difference: if the game continued, the paladin would be alive once Mistborn left the game. Voluntarily not killing the character is actually more insulting and has the same net effect.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:56 pm

Once, when I ragequit a pbp post game the DM created a 26 line paragraph of a conversation between my character and "the munchkin gods" who were punishing him.

I thought that was pretty funny, that he was such a "real roleplayer" that he couldn't just retcon the characters existence without a "reason." And then, because he was a real roleplayer, his reason was stupid.

The DM abandoned the game at the end of the first fight because he realized that of the 6 characters, 4 of them where just as "munchkin" as mine. The other was the VoP Monk who was the reason I quit.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:03 am

Kaelik wrote:Once, when I ragequit a pbp post game the DM created a 26 line paragraph of a conversation between my character and "the munchkin gods" who were punishing him.

I thought that was pretty funny, that he was such a "real roleplayer" that he couldn't just retcon the characters existence without a "reason." And then, because he was a real roleplayer, his reason was stupid.

The DM abandoned the game at the end of the first fight because he realized that of the 6 characters, 4 of them where just as "munchkin" as mine. The other was the VoP Monk who was the reason I quit.

And now my curiosity and empathy have surfaced once more. Kaelik, prithee grace us with your story of rage and woe?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:38 am

If you really want to know:

I started a thread with the following post:

I would like to play one of the following modules:

Red Hand of Doom
City of the Spider Queen
Expedition to Undermountain
[Possible additions here]

With one of these classes (in order of preference):
Force Potentate
Time Mage
Storm Lord
Snowscaper
Elemental Siphon
[Others may be added]

I of course require a DM and a party to do so. Looking for that here.

A later post I made:

Anyway, so the reason I asked about these modules is that they are ones I have heard are both "Good" and "Hard" from people who I know well enough to know that the same should hold true for me, even playing one of the various homebrew classes I suggested, who are mostly balanced at less that Wizard/Druid but higher than Rogue level.

Not that the DM won't need to change some things, or won't want to, (I've never played a module truly straight, Dms like to add their own flair as far as I can tell,) just that it would require less work for the party of rampant min maxxers who might be attracted to any game allowing me to play a class that I designed. (Or the Time Mage or Snowscaper, who I did not design.)

So DM okayed playing the Force Potentate, apparently because he is a gygaxian asshat who thinks that everything being immune to magic makes the Wizard being more powerful okay for some reason.

Game starts with us on the road, and me talking smack to the VoP monk, because he refuses to ride the Phantom Steed created by my class feature even though it is literally 4 times as fast as him.

Rules argument ensues on OOC where Crazy Monk Guy insists that absolutely his Monk must be faster, because he is fast goddam it! Tries to define Phantom Steed speed of 10ft per CL as being the steed of a Phantom Steed using a Run action to move 50ft.

Eventually, I mock him enough, and he actually rides the horse.

So the first battle starts with a Hobgoblin ambush, where they fire a round of arrows at us. Then the Wizard casts Windwall. At this point, the VoP Monk has retconned his character to add Vow of Peace. No really. And so he tries to offer the hobgoblins all our money in exchange for letting us leave.

My character says "Fuck Bandits" and Force Missiles one of them.

At this point, the DM decides to tell me that I'm in a globe of invulnerability. By which I mean, he doesn't tell me that, he just tells me that my SLA fails. I point out that even if I'm standing in a Globe of Invulnerability, it would still shoot out and hit the guy far away.

Oops, then the hobgoblin dies. So now somehow their is a 4th level spell at least on the field, and the most likely way is some kind of monster with the globe as a feature, so I point out that I can see invisible things, because I have see invisibility. DM throws a fit, we argue about the nature of the game rules, he sounds like someone from therpgsite, with his hatred of even the idea of players knowing the rules.

Meanwhile, the fight breaks out with the hobgoblins, and the VoP/Vo even worse P runs around trying to knock out hobgoblins non lethally, and I deliberately force missile each one before he can knock them out.

I quit after the DM says something stupid in the OOC argument. I remember he said a bunch of things about how I was using the rules to bully him, and if it were real life, he would show me what for with his big strong muscles from serving in the military, which I thought was particularly funny.

And after I quit, this shows up in the IC thread. I'm not going to bother putting in the bold and color changes.

A deep and resonant voice fills the minds and chests from above, speaking one word, "Zagar!" The man looks to the heavens where a bright light grows quickly and begins to pulse. "No!" He cried out "Yes ... it is time to return to the land of Munchkins!"

"No ... I can't ... I'm just normal there ... here at least I am someone!" The man now seems quite childlike and pitiful as if throwing a temper tantrum.

"No Zagar, it is time to return to your kind, they're looking for someone who had seen this side of reality and wish to ask you what was running through your mind when you chose to cross over. Your mother is quite annoyed with you young man."

Before the man could speak, the group catches a glimpse of Zagar. A mere child of no more than 10 years old astride a shaggy pony with helm skewed on his small head. There is the sound of air being sucked in severely, and then an audible pop ... Zagar is now gone, and so are the bright blue steeds that were once your mounts.

Looking up from where Zagar had once been to the light, all find it had vanished as mysteriously as it had appeared.

Because you know, you can't just retcon him out of existence without a completely pointless conversation where you play both sides and use it to insult someone who already left...

I know about this only because I got an infraction for "misuse of forum" with my initial post, and I periodically go back and look at my infractions sometimes on forums.

Korgan0 · Post by **Korgan0** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:33 am

What forum was this on?

Swashbuckler · Post by **Swashbuckler** » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:28 am

Kaelik wrote: I quit after the DM says something stupid in the OOC argument. I remember he said a bunch of things about how I was using the rules to bully him, and if it were real life, he would show me what for with his big strong muscles from serving in the military, which I thought was particularly funny.

...All that, and to be honest this is what I take away from it. Probably because I'm a former serviceman myself. On the one hand, it makes me laugh, because the guys who have to brag were probably REMFs. On the other hand, it shames me slightly, because I think when someone says such a thing their words make all of us who served look a little more childish when it's encountered, regardless of our own personal merits, as that sort of thing is memorable.

As for the rest of the story. Is it really so hard to construct an encounter that can plausibly work within the rules? Is it really so hard to encourage people to build characters that carry their weight in combat? I don't see how either of these are so difficult, so stories like this just blow my mind.