Pathfinder

[Mask_De_H]

"Frank Cheat"?

3.0 thing that sorta works in 3.5. Wake up, cast buff spells with a duration > 8 hours (preferably 24). Go to sleep. Wake up and put new spells in the slots you used for the buffs.

The Onmyouji has a class ability where they can make a pseudo-PoP on the cheap when they choose spells. It refreshes when they pick spells. You see where this is going?

[Whatever]

"Frank Cheat"?

Step one: cast spells with durations longer than your spell refresh period
Step two: refresh spells

[Lago PARANOIA]

The Frank cheat specifically refers to how 'day' is not an internally consistent term across various usages. As far as wizards go, the 'day' they generally care about is getting their spells back after 8 hours.

Some people claimed that 'day' was tied to some celestial cycle or even to a brute-force 24 hour period, so the aforementioned interpretation was cheekily referred to as 'The Frank Cheat'. I don't know what interpretation Pathfinder went with, but if the Sun subdomain of Renewel (I think?) is any indication Pathfinder specifically goes with The Frank Cheat.

But we should know by now not to accept any Pathfinder claim or rule at face value that leaves room to misinterpretation (willful or honest) that has the intention of boosting PCs. They've totally dovetailed into VSP/CNN/CBS territory of acknowledging and interpreting facts. And if we're talking about SKR, FoxNews.

[Archmage Joda]

So, on the subject of Thassilonian specialist, which school of that would be ideal to specialize in? After all, in this case it's not just a matter of which school you get more of, but also which are given up. For example, both the Conjuration and Transmutation options give up Illusion, which as far as I can see, is a fairly hefty loss...

[sabs]

I'm always happy to give up necromancy, but pretty much I hate giving up any of the other ones.

[Korwin]

So, on the subject of Thassilonian specialist, which school of that would be ideal to specialize in? After all, in this case it's not just a matter of which school you get more of, but also which are given up. For example, both the Conjuration and Transmutation options give up Illusion, which as far as I can see, is a fairly hefty loss...

It is? I thought in Pathfinder you still are able to cast the spells. You only need two spell slots.

[hogarth]

So, on the subject of Thassilonian specialist, which school of that would be ideal to specialize in? After all, in this case it's not just a matter of which school you get more of, but also which are given up. For example, both the Conjuration and Transmutation options give up Illusion, which as far as I can see, is a fairly hefty loss...

It is? I thought in Pathfinder you still cast the spells. You only need two spell slots.

It's a Thassilonian Specialist thing. They have "real" forbidden schools.

[Korwin]

I see.

I always liked to give up Evocation under 3.X (unil Dragon Magic).

[Archmage Joda]

Except the Thassilonian Specialist chooses your forbidden schools for you based on your specialty. Transmutation loses Enchantment (meh.) and Illusion (the one that gives me pain), Conjuration loses Evocation (meh.) and Illusion.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Illusion sucks as a school to lose if your DM rewards creativity and doesn't second-guess you to the point of metagaming. Meaning that for most groups it's a pretty safe school to lose altogether.

I will tell you though that there's nothing more thrilling than using silent image to put a bunch of skeletons into a temporary closet or distorting the length of a hallway.

[sabs]

invisibility, greater invisibility, mirror image, blur
those are all illusion spells and you almost certainly want most of them, if not all.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Necromancy still kind of chews as a school at first level, but Pathfinder really beefed it up past it. It's very strong competition for conjuration now from spell levels 2 onwards.

[Username17]

The Thassilonian Specialist has the disadvantage that they have to use the normal 2nd edition specialist rules (fixed forbidden schools and schools that are actually forbidden to you instead of just "scrolls only" like a Pathfinder Wizard). The advantage is that you get to cast your bonus specialization spells of each level twice each day.

The choices are:

• Abjuration (Lose Evocation and Necromancy). Life without Evocation and Necromancy is pretty much exactly like normal life because there is nothing those schools do that is particularly interesting or unique. Nevertheless, this involves specializing in abjuration, which you are not going to do.
• Necromancy (Lose Abjuration and Enchantment). Losing Necromancy is no big deal, but specializing in Necromancy is pretty boss. Necromancy is the "random pile of stuff" school, so even though it doesn't do anything really unique or necessary, there's good stuff at every level. And the special abilities from the "regular" Necromancy Specialist Wizards in Pathfinder are extremely terrible, so you'd definitely go Thassilonian if you wanted to be a Necromancy Specialist. Enchantment has awesome spells in it, but let's be honest: there are only two of them (Charm and Sleep), which then get printed and reprinted with various higher level versions. Giving up Abjuration is something you might never notice, especially if there's a Cleric in the party who can cast the Magic Circle which is the one and only spell you will ever regret not being able to cast.
• Transmutation (Lose Enchantment and Illusion). Enchantment and Illusion make up 100% of the good attack spells at first level, so being a Thassilonian Transmuter is right the fuck out. Transmutation in Pathfinder really isn't all that great anyway.
• Enchantment (Lose Necromancy and Transmutation). Now we're talking! With two bonus sleeps at first level you have as many spells as a Sorcerer and you still have your spell book. Nevertheless, you would still never actually do this because the regular Pathfinder Enchantment specialist gets a bonus to all Social Skills and an extra +2 to save DCs at short range when they hit level 8.
• Illusion (Lose Conjuration and Transmutation). Illusion is boss. Awesome spells at every level that are useful against a wide variety of challenges. Spells that let you slap down potentially large groups of creatures with minds, and also spells that make you automatically win against mindless foes in any numbers. And the spells are versatile, so getting two of the same one. Losing Conjuration hurts, losing Transmutation honestly doesn't. There are a lot of Illusion specialist types, and you might want to do that instead - being a Mage of the Veil gives you Bluff and Stealth, for example.
• Conjuration (Lose Illusion and Evocation). Conjuration is full of awesome. Losing Illusion hurts a lot, but losing Evocation doesn't. You still would never do this, because the Conjuration alternate specializations are full of win. Being a teleportation specialist gives you a sweet short range teleport, and being a creation specialist lets you manifest expensive poisons from your imagination by the cubic foot at level 8.
• Evocation (Lose Conjuration and Abjuration). Evocation has a couple of good spells, but few of them are ones you'd care about casting twice in a day. Made about a gajillion times better in Pathfinder, where there is Ear Piercing Scream, you still would not give up Conjuration for this.

So there you have it: you can make a kind of OK argument to be a Thassilonian Illusionist or a Thassilonian Necromancer. The other specialists, even when they are good are still not as good as the piles of special abilities you get way cheaper by jumping on the spell category in a non-Thassilonian way.

-Username17

[ishy]

[*] Enchantment (Lose Necromancy and Transmutation). Now we're talking! With two bonus sleeps at first level you have as many spells as a Sorcerer and you still have your spell book. Nevertheless, you would still never actually do this because the regular Pathfinder Enchantment specialist gets a bonus to all Social Skills and an extra +2 to save DCs at short range when they hit level 8.

-Username17

The aura of despair the gives -2 to saving throws and other stuff, needs to be activated as a standard action though, so you'll only have it up if you know the fight is coming. And can only be active for a number of rounds equal to your level.

[Username17]

[*] Enchantment (Lose Necromancy and Transmutation). Now we're talking! With two bonus sleeps at first level you have as many spells as a Sorcerer and you still have your spell book. Nevertheless, you would still never actually do this because the regular Pathfinder Enchantment specialist gets a bonus to all Social Skills and an extra +2 to save DCs at short range when they hit level 8.

-Username17

The aura of despair the gives -2 to saving throws and other stuff, needs to be activated as a standard action though, so you'll only have it up if you know the fight is coming. And can only be active for a number of rounds equal to your level.

My impression was that it was free to turn on. Supernatural abilities that operate on a "rounds per day" basis do not normally take actions to turn on and off.

-Username17

[ishy]

My impression was that it was free to turn on. Supernatural abilities that operate on a "rounds per day" basis do not normally take actions to turn on and off.

-Username17

It has no mentioned activation time and is a SU ability so defaults to a standard action. I would be happy to be wrong about this though, since it would actually make the ability worthwhile.

[Username17]

My impression was that it was free to turn on. Supernatural abilities that operate on a "rounds per day" basis do not normally take actions to turn on and off.

-Username17

It has no mentioned activation time and is a SU ability so defaults to a standard action. I would be happy to be wrong about this though, since it would actually make the ability worthwhile.

SU abilities default to either standard actions or non-actions. It doesn't take a separate action for Paladins to apply mercies to their Lay on Hands, nor does it require an action for them to have an Aura of Good. Monks don't need to spend actions to be immune to poison.

Pathfinder is better about marking action types for Supernatural abilities than 3.5 is, but they still don't mark the ones which are non-actions like Quivering Palms. And the weird menu-abilities (like Wizard Specialist benefits or Cleric Domains) are pretty notoriously bad for filling in such crucial details.

But a buff that triggers for a couple of non-consecutive rounds in a day is exactly the kind of thing that absolutely obviously has to turn on and off as a free (or non-) action.

-Username17

[ishy]

SU abilities default to either standard actions or non-actions. It doesn't take a separate action for Paladins to apply mercies to their Lay on Hands, nor does it require an action for them to have an Aura of Good. Monks don't need to spend actions to be immune to poison.

Pathfinder is better about marking action types for Supernatural abilities than 3.5 is, but they still don't mark the ones which are non-actions like Quivering Palms. And the weird menu-abilities (like Wizard Specialist benefits or Cleric Domains) are pretty notoriously bad for filling in such crucial details.

But a buff that triggers for a couple of non-consecutive rounds in a day is exactly the kind of thing that absolutely obviously has to turn on and off as a free (or non-) action.

-Username17

combat section: supernatural abilities[/url]]Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description).

So defaults to standard unless otherwise noted.

Whenever the paladin uses lay on hands to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the mercies possessed by the paladin.

So it uses the activation of lay on hands. Aura of Good is Ex not SU.
Even if immunity to poison cost a standard action from the Monk it is always on, so you don't care.
Quivering palm does state must state intent before making an attack roll, which I honestly read as being an effect of an attack, thus requiring no activation, but ymmv.

And it is actually a debuff, but here an example of "a buff that triggers for a couple of non-consecutive rounds in a day" that is a standard action: Glory Domain: Divine presence

[Username17]

So defaults to standard unless otherwise noted.

Whenever the paladin uses lay on hands to heal damage to one target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the mercies possessed by the paladin.

So it uses the activation of lay on hands.

And yet... it doesn't specify an action type. It really obviously doesn't use a standard action, because it's a modifier to an action that is itself a standard action and it would be fucking worthless if it took a standard action itself to power on. It's a non-action, but it doesn't actually say that.

Which is the entire point. Every Su ability defaults to a Standard Action if and only if it actually requires an action to turn on. But a whole fuck tonne of Supernatural abilities don't take an action to turn on, they just happen as non-actions. And Pathfinder does not mark those.

And yeah, the Glory Domain does feel the need to specify that it takes a Standard Action to turn on. And it sucks, which is not a coincidence in this case.

-Username17

[ishy]

SU use a standard action unless the ability describes otherwise.
If an ability says that whenever you use X, Y also applies. That tells me that you don't have to spend an action to use Y.

And there are SU aura descriptions in the game that specifically mention that the aura costs a standard action and ones that specifically mention free action. While the wizard enchantment one doesn't mention anything at all. Which to me means it defaults to the general rule and I'm not sure what your basis is for saying it is a free action other than it would suck otherwise.

Now I agree that pathfinder could use better and more consistent writing, and that the game would be better if you changed some of the rules.

[Username17]

I don't know what to tell you. We've already established numerous cases in Pathfinder in which supernatural abilities don't specify an action type to activate and nevertheless don't take an action to activate. Is your contention that:

you can emit a 30-foot aura of despair for a number of rounds per day equal to your wizard level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

• Takes a standard action each round it is active?
• Takes a standard action each day it is active in?
• Takes a standard action to turn on and a standard action to turn off?
• Takes a standard action to turn on but is free to turn off?
• Some other thing?

It doesn't interact with actions in any way in its actual description. It isn't a one turn power you can turn on 8 times a day, it's a constant power that only has an effect in 8 non-consecutive rounds during the day.

-Username17

[ishy]

Actually, the SU description needs to define (I'd say indicate but that is just me) if the action type isn't standard. They don't have to literally state action type:free.
But hey lets point out a SU abilities which does state it needs a free action to turn on:
Bramble Armor another rounds equal to your level ability.

Interesting question what the action is after you activate the ability, the rules don't seem to mention it, so I googled it: Unless otherwise specified, an ability that lasts a number of rounds keeps going until you stop it. Normally, when you chose to end an ability that lasts a number of rounds, it's done. (Doing so is a free action.) Now I know James' explanations are never official, but as official as I could find.

Or to answer your questions, 1:No
2:what? Never seen any ability like this. Unless you count things like spell preperation which takes a lot longer than a standard.
3:no
4: yes
5:no

[Kaelik]

Well here is the great thing, that description of the action to turn it off contradicts every bit of RAW that does exist, because dismissing an effect is a standard action.

[Mistborn]

I'm surprised that Lago hasn't butted into this conversation yet. Regardless of what the rules say on this in most games turning on your Aura is going to be a standard action due to rule negative two.

Assuming the most conservative potential ruling is one of the commands of practical optimization.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Are there wizard spells in particular you had your eye on?

Unless you had something specific in mind, I would personally go as a cleric with the domains of Charm and Darkness while backing that ass up with the Night subdomain. If you can't find a deity with those domains and aren't allowed to be a deity-less cleric, there's the Separatist archetype. For your other archetype, there's no contest: Variant Channeling. Yes, I would like to be able to mass-daze all living enemies for one round at the low-low cost of two turn undead energy channels.

By the way, Pathfinder really helped you out with skill prerequisites for PrCs a lot. Class skills don't determine how many points you can put into a skill, merely whether you get a +3 bonus for having them. I bring this up, because as I've said before Veiled Illusionist is probably the most boss PrC ever printed for d20 blaster clerics that a table will allow. It's so boss that unless your game is going to end before level 7 or you have a specific reason in mind for being a wizard or summoner (such as being a summon-monkey) that you need to seriously ask yourself why you're not going this route.

And yes, you will know three illusion spells before you take your 1st level of Veiled Illusionist. Vision of Hell, Trail of the Rose, and Silence.

LN Human, Separatist Cleric 5 / Veiled Illusionist 4 of some deity with the darkness or charm domain with the Rulership: Harm Alternate Channel.

Most geegaw that gives stat gains go into wisdom and charisma. You are the party face.

Your feats and spell lists look something like this:
1H: Quick Channel
1: Selective Channel
3: Spell Focus: Enchantment (unless there are no other crafters in the party, then it's Craft Wondrous Item)
5: Spell Focus: Illusion
7: Greater Spell Focus, either Illusion or Enchantment
9: Craft Rod

Spells:
1: Sleep/Charm Person, Murderous Command, Silent Image (L6)
2: Blindness, Compassionate Ally, Hold Person
3: Suggestion, Stone Shape, Deeper Darkness, Vision of Hell, Major Image (L7)
4: Shadow Conjuration, Aura of Doom, Fleshworm Infestation, Improved Invisibility (L8)
5: Charm Monster, Greater Forbid Action (!!), Shadow Evocation (L9)

Spells like Magic Circle Against Evil are inserted at your discretion.

Alternatively, you can go with a cleric that has the Void domain instead of Darkness or Charm. The real money of that domain choice is the Part the Veil ability. Well, aside from the +2 bonus to will saves that matter, overland flight, the entire planar binding line, etc.

The problem with this variant of cleric, however, is that you need eight levels of cleric before you get the ability. This isn't a particularly huge deal because you will want to take levels of cleric in between levels of Veiled Illusionist to better maximize your plundering of wizard illusion spells. However, if you go with the Separatist cleric you'll have to take ten levels of cleric before you get Part the Veil. Unless you find a deity with the Void domain, but since Pathfinder tends to reserve this domain for evil cosmic horror entities, good luck with that.