Ten Levels

[MGuy]

But Shout and Water Walk aren't high level abilities. They debatably cross the line from "mundane" into "weeaboo superpower," and they're still only 3rd and 4th level spells.

Then let's go with effects like Earthquake, Dominate, or (fuck it) Time Stop. When there are dudes out in the world with a 30+ to their primary attribute, why isn't it feasible that those people could cause Localized Tremors by stomping the ground, convince someone to literally follow them into hell and back, or move so fast that they get multiple turns in the initiative order?

Mostly because anybody (casters included) can accomplish the task of having a high attribute. Whatever you wanna give the mundanes has to be something that you can only get by being mundane. Otherwise you just hand a new ability to casters so they can get Mundane stuff + magic.

[Wrathzog]

Whatever you wanna give the mundanes has to be something that you can only get by being mundane.

No. No, that's a silly way to do things. Mostly because it's impossible. Magic does basically anything it wants almost by definition and will always envelop the domain of the mundane man. If a Wizard sees someone doing something, they can make a spell to replicate the effect. They can do that because it's Fucking Magic.

And that's just the way it Is. I don't even consider that a bad thing (just boring) because that's just what Wizards are. They have no inherently positive qualities other than their Huge Brains, so they NEED to use magic to compensate.


But that's not even what I'm trying to get at here. The thing I want to address is when people start drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and say, "No, Fighters can't cause Earthquakes by stomping on the ground because that's magic."
I want to Expand the Mundane ability pool. I don't give any fucks as to whether or not it's stepping on the toes of the Magical ability pool because I already assume that it does.

[Foxwarrior]

What's the point, Wrathzog, of having both Mundane and Magical abilities if neither of them have any conceptual limits?

[sabs]

And saying, "its' mundane if you have a 30 strength" Which is the equivalent of a Titan. And you're left wondering. What's mundane about a guy who is as strong as a Titan.

[John Magnum]

I'm fine with giving beefy dudes with tough-looking armor who carry around weapons a bunch of superpowers that let them participate in the same challenges as scrawny beardy dudes with robes and thick tomes. I'm even fine with the objection that we don't have to call the aforementioned beefy dudes "magic" for them to participate in this, because different phlebotinum can have lots of different names. But pretending that this beefy dude is somehow "mundane" is deeply stupid.

One obvious example of this is the line of thinking "This beefy dude is mundane, which means that the stuff he does is stuff ANY class should be able to do, which means that the magic (or other phlebotinum-enabled) classes have a strictly larger set of abilities. What do we do?" If you accept that the beefy dudes are tapping their own phlebotinum, then the problem disappears. It becomes really obvious that even if it's possible for a wizard to lift weights until he can punch mountains in half, that would game-mechanically constitute taking a bunch of levels in Beef Dudery.

[MGuy]

Whatever you wanna give the mundanes has to be something that you can only get by being mundane.

No. No, that's a silly way to do things. Mostly because it's impossible. Magic does basically anything it wants almost by definition and will always envelop the domain of the mundane man. If a Wizard sees someone doing something, they can make a spell to replicate the effect. They can do that because it's Fucking Magic.

And that's just the way it Is. I don't even consider that a bad thing (just boring) because that's just what Wizards are. They have no inherently positive qualities other than their Huge Brains, so they NEED to use magic to compensate.


But that's not even what I'm trying to get at here. The thing I want to address is when people start drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and say, "No, Fighters can't cause Earthquakes by stomping on the ground because that's magic."
I want to Expand the Mundane ability pool. I don't give any fucks as to whether or not it's stepping on the toes of the Magical ability pool because I already assume that it does.

I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that your bar of "have a high attribute" does not prevent creatures who can do magic from getting all those 'mundane' abilities + spells. See: Demons. So what you HAVE to have is a line that arbitrarily gives 'mundanes' abilities that the 'casters' can't get as well.

[Avoraciopoctules]

And saying, "its' mundane if you have a 30 strength" Which is the equivalent of a Titan. And you're left wondering. What's mundane about a guy who is as strong as a Titan.

I associate "mundane" with "a random person from town could do it". And I don't think most settings have towns where you can recruit someone at random from a bar and then have good odds of them being able to punch holes in steel or hold up the sky.

I think I agree with sabs here.

[NineInchNall]

What's the point, Wrathzog, of having both Mundane and Magical abilities if neither of them have any conceptual limits?

The point is that the conceptual divide (in terms of effects) between mundane and magical disappears within the context of a world where creatures and people have very high ability scores. The idea that a "mundane" character like a Fighter shouldn't be able to cause localized earthquakes is therefore incoherent. Mundane is just, to use 4e terminology, a category of power sources.

And saying, "its' mundane if you have a 30 strength" Which is the equivalent of a Titan. And you're left wondering. What's mundane about a guy who is as strong as a Titan.

I associate "mundane" with "a random person from town could do it". And I don't think most settings have towns where you can recruit someone at random from a bar and then have good odds of them being able to punch holes in steel or hold up the sky.

I think I agree with sabs here.

Define your terms, peeps.

If that's what you mean by "mundane", then yes, no mundane character could ever be a skilled swordsman, an experienced engineer, or a talented tracker, never mind being anything high level. That's a perfectly normal way to understand the word. Generally in this context, however, people use the term to refer to any character/creature that is not using abilities explicitly labeled as "magical"; e.g., spells, psionics, etc.

Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.

[Soda]

Why is there another thread about what is-and-isn't mundane?

Just use the terms Actually Mundane and Mundane Enough.

Of course causing an earthquake isn't Actually Mundane. The point is that Actually Mundane can't play in the same game as wizards above level 2.

[Mistborn]

Define your terms, peeps.

If that's what you mean by "mundane", then yes, no mundane character could ever be a skilled swordsman, an experienced engineer, or a talented tracker, never mind being anything high level. That's a perfectly normal way to understand the word. Generally in this context, however, people use the term to refer to any character/creature that is not using abilities explicitly labeled as "magical"; e.g., spells, psionics, etc.

Let's spell this out mundane characters lack pletobium and thus a bound by willing suspension of disbelief and are only capable of shit that the average player imagining a real person actually doing.

Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.

Why is there another thread about what is-and-isn't mundane?

Just use the terms Actually Mundane and Mundane Enough.

Of course causing an earthquake isn't Actually Mundane. The point is that Actually Mundane can't play in the same game as wizards above level 2.

GOD. DAMN.

Being able to punch through steel or create earthquakes by stomping is a superpower it may be a shitty Charles Atlas superpower but it's still a superpower.

Why do you conksuckers have such huge boners for shitty character concepts.

[Soda]

GOD. DAMN.

Being able to punch through steel or create earthquakes by stomping is a superpower it may be a shitty Charles Atlas superpower but it's still a superpower.

Why do you conksuckers have such huge boners for shitty character concepts.

What are you talking about? I want earthquake punching. How else could the Sword Guy possibly scale past very early levels? I'm in favor of Mundane Enough. Chopping down mountains. Grappling the kraken.

Other people keep making this pointless semantic argument that earthquake stomping is not Actually Mundane. It's completely irrelevant because we want Charles Atlas Superpowers. Nobody cares what Actually Mundane humans can do. This is fantasy.

[Wrathzog]

What's the point, Wrathzog, of having both Mundane and Magical abilities if neither of them have any conceptual limits?

I only said that Magical abilities don't really have any limits. Mundane abilities definitely do. Nitpicking aside, the point is to allow for the existence of classes like The Fighter because people seriously want to be a guy who is just super strong and has "Cuts Things" on his character sheet to be a viable character concept all the way to 20.
People posit that that's impossible and I disagree.

And saying, "its' mundane if you have a 30 strength" Which is the equivalent of a Titan. And you're left wondering. What's mundane about a guy who is as strong as a Titan.

So, I understand that Mundane has two meanings. We're using the second one which Google defines as, "Of this earthly world rather than a heavenly or spiritual one." which, in the context of a fantasy world, is going to mean someone who has a power source of Self (Martial in 4e and Not Psionic).
So, if a Human in a Fantasy World can reach 30 Strength by working out, eating right, and murdering things, that is totally Mundane.

Now, if you interpret the word to correspond with expectations built from the Real World or use the First Description of "Boring," then we're not going to be able to have a conversation because that's not what I'm fucking talking about.

I'm just saying that your bar of "have a high attribute" does not prevent creatures who can do magic from getting all those 'mundane' abilities + spells. See: Demons. So what you HAVE to have is a line that arbitrarily gives 'mundanes' abilities that the 'casters' can't get as well.

That's totally cool. Anything that gets access to both means that they can cause Earthquakes without spending spell slots to do it and they'll be balanced accordingly.

NineInchNall knows what I'm talking about. He smells what I'm stepping in. Mistborn, on the other hand, is basically completely wrong.

Being able to punch through steel or create earthquakes by stomping is a superpower it may be a shitty Charles Atlas superpower but it's still a superpower.

If you want to define Mundane to mean Realistic, then fucking say Realistic.

[Red_Rob]

Why do you conksuckers have such huge boners for shitty character concepts.

Most classic fantasy stories take as their central character someone the audience can relate to. This means that (at least to start with) they don't have reality altering powers, they don't have a crazy outlook on life, and they aren't a weird alien species that bears little relationship to humanity. If they are special, it's by being a little better at things a normal human could do than other people.

Because this trope is so prevalent in fantasy stories, a lot of people want something approximating it in their fantasy games. The fact this is hard to reconcile in D&D's world of unlimited magic and quadratic power levels means a lot of discussion goes on about it.

It's not really that hard to grasp.

I only said that Magical abilities don't really have any limits. Mundane abilities definitely do.

Only in D&D. Magic can have any limits on it you want, D&D just hasn't thus far included any. If you wanted to say that magic is unable to affect the heart and mind of an intelligent creature, that would be a reasonable limitation with plenty of mythological backing. Charm and Enchantment spells would go out of the window and being a smooth talker would be a power you couldn't replicate with magic.

[Wrathzog]

Yeah, you're totally right. I'm just used to thinking in terms of D&D paradigms. That shit can be completely toxic.

[Kaelik]

What are you talking about? I want earthquake punching. How else could the Sword Guy possibly scale past very early levels? I'm in favor of Mundane Enough. Chopping down mountains. Grappling the kraken.

Other people keep making this pointless semantic argument that earthquake stomping is not Actually Mundane. It's completely irrelevant because we want Charles Atlas Superpowers. Nobody cares what Actually Mundane humans can do. This is fantasy.

And the point at issue is that Earthquake Stomps are not Mundane Enough either.

Look, if tomorrow, I start wanting to use the term "Wizard Enough" to describe my fucking fighter with his power source of self, you would all throw a goddam fit, because obviously Wizard does not mean that, and 1+1 is not equal to Seven Enough. It is equal to 2.

Why do you all have to eat a dick a day by using the stupid term mundane, which is shitty and means the exact opposite of you mean instead of just giving them a power source of any fucking kind and shutting up about it?

I'm not going to describe a powerful character as "Mediocre Enough."

So, I understand that Mundane has two meanings. We're using the second one which Google defines as, "Of this earthly world rather than a heavenly or spiritual one." which, in the context of a fantasy world, is going to mean someone who has a power source of Self (Martial in 4e and Not Psionic).

You missed a few power sources. Some other power sources that would fit that definition are:

Arcane, Elemental, Skill, Psionic, Pretty much everything that is not Divine.

So that means the Wizard would be Mundane under that definition.

If your definition of Mundane includes both fighters and wizards, which it does, then it is obviously not a useful definition.

In conclusion. Eat a bag of dicks.

[Soda]

Why do you all have to eat a dick a day by using the stupid term mundane, which is shitty and means the exact opposite of you mean instead of just giving them a power source of any fucking kind and shutting up about it?

Kaelik, you're entire argument is the semantics of the word mundane. It's pointless. When people say mundane here, they are talking about the Mundane/Martial/Muscle/Might/Skill powersource.

Mundane is a well-accepted term. I have no idea why you're so offended by it.

[Mistborn]

And the point at issue is that Earthquake Stomps are not Mundane Enough either.

Look, if tomorrow, I start wanting to use the term "Wizard Enough" to describe my fucking fighter with his power source of self, you would all throw a goddam fit, because obviously Wizard does not mean that, and 1+1 is not equal to Seven Enough. It is equal to 2.

Why do you all have to eat a dick a day by using the stupid term mundane, which is shitty and means the exact opposite of you mean instead of just giving them a power source of any fucking kind and shutting up about it?

I'm not going to describe a powerful character as "Mediocre Enough."

Sempai <3

Most classic fantasy stories take as their central character someone the audience can relate to. This means that (at least to start with) they don't have reality altering powers, they don't have a crazy outlook on life, and they aren't a weird alien species that bears little relationship to humanity. If they are special, it's by being a little better at things a normal human could do than other people.

And that's where you fuck up. Those are low level character with low level concepts. If you want a game with high levels those characters need to stop having such a conksuck concept and being generally shitty. Otherwise when the GTFO abilities start coming in they GTFO and never return to being relevant.

Only in D&D. Magic can have any limits on it you want, D&D just hasn't thus far included any. If you wanted to say that magic is unable to affect the heart and mind of an intelligent creature, that would be a reasonable limitation with plenty of mythological backing. Charm and Enchantment spells would go out of the window and being a smooth talker would be a power you couldn't replicate with magic.

That's an incredibly shitty idea, Putting shitty bullshit limits on magic is not how you fix D&D magic how you do that is you make it so wizardly people no longer have access to all the magic (all of it).

Because this trope is so prevalent in fantasy stories, a lot of people want something approximating it in their fantasy games. The fact this is hard to reconcile in D&D's world of unlimited magic and quadratic power levels means a lot of discussion goes on about it.

What quadratic scaling means is that you can't do it. You can't have high level mundane characters. So what you have is people like me who understand shit and thus know that the mundane guys need to wise up and get a real power source after a point. The then there are the conksuckers who want to fight a dragon the size of city bus with scales like supple adamantine and mastery over time and death but they want to be totally mundane about it.

Edit

Kaelik, you're entire argument is the semantics of the word mundane. It's pointless. When people say mundane here, they are talking about the Mundane/Martial/Muscle/Might/Skill powersource.

Mundane is a well-accepted term. I have no idea why you're so offended by it.

see previous paragraph

[Wrathzog]

How about... I use the term "Extraordinary" and other people can use "Realistic?" Then we can take Mundane out back and shoot it in its ambiguous face.

Would this help? Would this make it easier to understand?

-e-
because seriously, it is fucking hilarious how fast Mistborn jumps up to say that it's "incredibly shitty" to limit magic in ANY way while also saying the it's Impossible to not limit non-magical abilities.
What is it like to live in such a Tiny, Contrived world? INQUIRING MINDS WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.

[Kaelik]

Why do you all have to eat a dick a day by using the stupid term mundane, which is shitty and means the exact opposite of you mean instead of just giving them a power source of any fucking kind and shutting up about it?

Kaelik, you're entire argument is the semantics of the word mundane. It's pointless. When people say mundane here, they are talking about the Mundane/Martial/Muscle/Might/Skill powersource.

Mundane is a well-accepted term. I have no idea why you're so offended by it.

No it fucking isn't. Every stupid fuck mundane obsessed dumbshit even admits it when they fucking start making up new terms like "Mundane Enough" for the express purpose of differentiating what they are talking about from the actual word and its actual meaning.

My argument has nothing to do with semantics and everything to do with definition, connotation, and communication. If you have to call something "Mundane Enough" you are explicitly admitting that mundane is a bad word for the concept. So just fucking get over your stupid obsession with a word that even you admit isn't suitable, and just call your fightery fighters

"Charles Atlas Superpowers" or "Mythic Perfection" or "Anything fucking else."

[ishy]

Just use the word magic, that should make it easy to understand.

[Wrathzog]

If you have to call something "Mundane Enough" you are explicitly admitting that mundane is a bad word for the concept.

We're trying out this new conflict resolution technique called "Compromise." I understand that it's incredibly advanced and pretty much like some bleeding edge shit but I think given enough time we can figure this out. Together. Dawg.

[Mistborn]

If you have to call something "Mundane Enough" you are explicitly admitting that mundane is a bad word for the concept.

We're trying out this new conflict resolution technique called "Compromise." I understand that it's incredibly advanced and pretty much like some bleeding edge shit but I think given enough time we can figure this out. Together. Dawg.

Listen you appear to not understand. You can not have mundane characters that remain relevant over the standard D&D level progression. The is not an opinion it is a imutable fact the sempai and I are stating.

Let's just take that fact and lay it on the table where we can examine it.

Now how do we get people weened off their shitty 5 level concepts and on to concepts that are not shitty.

[Kaelik]

If you have to call something "Mundane Enough" you are explicitly admitting that mundane is a bad word for the concept.

We're trying out this new conflict resolution technique called "Compromise." I understand that it's incredibly advanced and pretty much like some bleeding edge shit but I think given enough time we can figure this out. Together. Dawg.

So to be clear, we are now going to start calling you "Racist Enough" in the name of compromise now?

Because you know that would make the same amount of sense. When someone points out they aren't racist, we can compromise by calling them racist enough, because that would be as accurate as "Mundane Enough" is here.

[sabs]

I still don't understand why people feel this need to have high level characters who have 'trained up'. Why can't you just have picked up a new power source, like Spiderman.

Fighter gives you access to maneuvers, the knowledge of how to fight with weapons, how to wear and use armor effectively in combat, tactics, etc...
At some point, you need to pick up a prestige class that gets you power ups.

Tattoos - You get magical tattoos on your skin, that you can activate to do shit.
Divine Calling - Crusader/Paladin/Divine Warrior
High Elven Knight - High Elven Wizards enchant the shit out of you, putting contigency spells, permanent effects, etc..
Sword/Bow/Gun Mage - you learn to channel magic through your chosen weapon.
Inner Strength (Weaboo Fightin - Legendary Kung Fu shit)
Dwarven power source - You're a Dwarf, you get access to dwarf secrets of awesome.
Elven power source - Elves have special bow-staff nature magic shit.
Nature Power source
Lycanthropy
Undead
Imbued with Magic
Contract with a Devil
Contract with an Archon
Demon touched
Tiefling Power source
WarMachine (TOny made you a power suit.. you use artificer made stuff)

What you can't do.. is be "A regular human who wins by being all fucking plucky and shit."

[fbmf]

Using the latter interpretation, it is clear that a guy who can punch holes in steel is totally mundane if he has that capacity in virtue of training, genetics, or anything at all - except for spells, psionics, etc.

So Superman is mundane?

Game On,
fbmf