How do we get rid of the Fighter

[Midnight_v]

That mentality is why I think the Bo9S was a net harm to the game. It encourages peoples' uselessness addiction by tempting them to go chaining after rainbows.

You're out of touch, in my opinion.


People want to play "Guys who have swords" and who in combat...
"Sword people to death".

I don't think that goes anywhere, no matter what you feel or do, as the genre is ostensibly called "Sword and sorcery".

The fact that people bring up stories like Conan is a pretty good example of where people mindset blinks too when they think of D&D.

Though I personally don't care is it's King Kull or Elric of Melibourne or Fuck. I don't know, the kid from bleach people desire to be that guy. The swordsman. The differences in those chars are many but in the end it boils down to epic sword duels. Which people love.

Now, some of them are going to bitch like crazy when we make them be anything other than a gazetteer....
...but this shit about "getting rid of the fighter" as a concept needs to turn to ash in your mouths and die.

The very thing is basically based on the 3.5 bullshit caster v non-caster thing. . .pushed to its natural limit, and it's pretty much just wrong.

"The Swordsman" can literally have 4 powers and be in the game at late level. 1. Sword you to death (no matter what) 2. Deal with flying assholes 3. Find shit out (doesn't matter if its a gather information skill equal to divination or not.) 4. Planeswalking.
1 and 2 keep him combat relevant
2 and 4 let him move the plot.
and about 4.

Immunities should be on that list but thats not exclusive to fighter but all high level guys.

Ultimately, though, this "Lets get rid of the swordsman" is a shit idea, that will never take off, because you're out of touch with the what the majority of people want. It goes right back to my first post.

Of course you can say "Fuck them" and they'll say "Fuck you too" and the fighter will stay right where it is.

cause convincing people on the den isn't remotely the real challenge in that. The real challenge is to get non-denners, writers, and game makers to even begin to agree with such an aggressive genre warping idea-set. Frankly, its all a waste of your fucking time.

Honestly, I'd rather play Elothar, warrior of bladereach, if it came down to that or no fighters ever. Plot powers as a class if nothing else.

[Kaelik]

Ultimately, though, this "Lets get rid of the swordsman" is a shit idea, that will never take off, because you're out of touch with the what the majority of people want. It goes right back to my first post.

So... we should never try to convince people to not be racist, or not hang out with racists, and we should build our game to accommodate racists, because they exist, and making a game that doesn't accommodate shitheads who ruin the game for everyone else is bad, and only games that accommodate shitheads should exist?

[zugschef]

i totally agree with lago. bo9s made people, who were on the verge of understanding the real problems with mundanes, believe that standard action strikes, which make enough damage to care and have a useful side-effect, solve the problem of the power gap between these characers and casters.

it was a fuckin' political compromise which in hindsight helped nobody. you don't need bo9s to build characters who can own melee. and you can't use bo9s to build characters who own melee and are tall enough to keep on adventuring with the casters. that doesn't mean that the idea of maneuvers and stances isn't nice as a combat resource.

[Drolyt]

That mentality is why I think the Bo9S was a net harm to the game. It encourages peoples' uselessness addiction by tempting them to go chaining after rainbows.

You're out of touch, in my opinion.


People want to play "Guys who have swords" and who in combat...
"Sword people to death".

I don't think that goes anywhere, no matter what you feel or do, as the genre is ostensibly called "Sword and sorcery".

The fact that people bring up stories like Conan is a pretty good example of where people mindset blinks too when they think of D&D.

Though I personally don't care is it's King Kull or Elric of Melibourne or Fuck. I don't know, the kid from bleach people desire to be that guy.

Okay, assuming the "kid from bleach" is Ichigo, people who want to play fighters don't want to be him. They think that is weaboo fightan magic. Also, shinigami have kido, which includes a large number of noncombat powers that show up like once every hundred chapters in the source material but would be great for a game like D&D. Really, shinigami are exactly what you want to make "guy who swings sword" compatible with high level D&D magic.
Edit: Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the group of people who would love to see a D&D class inspired by the shinigami vastly dwarfs the number of grognards who revolt against weaboo fightan magic. Which is all the more reason to give the fighter an overhaul.

[Kaelik]

Well actually, while Shinigami have awesome Kido powers, and in fact, crazy sword powers like illusions and flowing waves of blades, and stuff, Ichigo's defining feature is how incredibly fucking boring his fighting style is.

Ichigo cannot use Kido, because he doesn't know any, and that's fine, because no one ever teaches him. And his level 0 sword (doesn't exist) upgrades to a level 1 sword by being big, which upgrades into a 1.5 sword by shooting his attack at range. And his level 1.5 sword upgrades into a bankai that allows him to move faster. So absolutely nothing about Ichigo couldn't be modelled with a character with a move speed of 200ft, Wings of Flying, and a BAB of +100 who sometimes uses a bow.

Because he is the most boring as shit character in that show when it comes to actual abilities.

[Drolyt]

Well actually, while Shinigami have awesome Kido powers, and in fact, crazy sword powers like illusions and flowing waves of blades, and stuff, Ichigo's defining feature is how incredibly fucking boring his fighting style is.

Ichigo cannot use Kido, because he doesn't know any, and that's fine, because no one ever teaches him. And his level 0 sword (doesn't exist) upgrades to a level 1 sword by being big, which upgrades into a 1.5 sword by shooting his attack at range. And his level 1.5 sword upgrades into a bankai that allows him to move faster. So absolutely nothing about Ichigo couldn't be modelled with a character with a move speed of 200ft, Wings of Flying, and a BAB of +100 who sometimes uses a bow.

Because he is the most boring as shit character in that show when it comes to actual abilities.

I know, but I didn't feel like explaining that. All the other characters have a wide range of kido, some of which are very powerful (the highest level kido user has an effect which seems to combine time stop and temporal stasis), but for some reason* they never use them. Many also have awesome sword powers. Regardless, my thought was simply to use all that as inspiration for what a high level sword swinger would look like, because for all that they love to "sword people to death" Midnight_v put it.

*That reason is Tity Kubo.

[Midnight_v]

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the group of people who would love to see a D&D class inspired by the shinigami vastly dwarfs the number of grognards who revolt against weaboo fightan magic.

They totally fucking are. Why? Grognardia is a bunch of mutherfuckers who start off stories like "Back in my day" by definition. Those are the very vocal dipshits that you have to say fuck off too, to get anywhere. Most of the people who play TTRPG's today are more familliar with Ichigo, than Elric, and while that may be a fucking shame. . . Its the reality of the situation. In the end the grognards are NOT the bulk of the market.

and you can't use bo9s to build characters who own melee and are tall enough to keep on adventuring with the casters. that doesn't mean that the idea of maneuvers and stances isn't nice as a combat resource.

I don't really give two shits about the Bo9s at this but to be honest, ultimately it modeled something for me.

You can take a sorcerer. Give him the full base attack bonus, and call him a fighter and people will still bitch infinitely on both ends.
Grognardia people who hate magic and Lago people who seem to hate the swordsman. . . as a concept.

Its the whole "Get rid of the fighter as a concept" thats fucked. It's gibberish about how magic vs skills/melee, but really its all opinion on what the constitutes a high level challenge.

[zugschef]

I don't really give two shits about the Bo9s at this but to be honest, ultimately it modeled something for me.

You can take a sorcerer. Give him the full base attack bonus, and call him a fighter and people will still bitch infinitely on both ends.
Grognardia people who hate magic and Lago people who seem to hate the swordsman. . . as a concept.

Its the whole "Get rid of the fighter as a concept" thats fucked. It's gibberish about how magic vs skills/melee, but really its all opinion on what the constitutes a high level challenge.

that didn't make any sense to me... the problem lago is talking about is not combat, and fighter is no viable concept (and a horrible name for a class on top of that).

[Kaelik]

Its the whole "Get rid of the fighter as a concept" thats fucked. It's gibberish about how magic vs skills/melee, but really its all opinion on what the constitutes a high level challenge.

No you dumb shit, it is the "Get rid of the fighter as a concept" that is the only possible path forward.

People whine like shitheads when you give Fighters anything at all that allows them to effect the plot because by definition such powers are outside the fighter concept.

People do not whine like shitheads when you give a Storm Lord who uses a Trident, and channels Lightning into his Trident, and stabs people with a Lightning Trident, the ability to, out of combat, Windwalk the party to someplace cool, or cast Control Weather, or Fly. Because those are not outside the concept of Storm Lord, even though every single one of them is outside the concept of fighter.

So instead of doing the bullshit stupid thing of having both exist but a fighter fight better than a Storm Lord to make up for his complete lack of plot powers, or the bullshit stupid thing of having both of them exist and fight just as well and the fighter to be a stupid class for stupid people who don't get to participate in the plot, we can do the not stupid thing of just not having a fighter.

And only five people in the entire world are going to play a level 1 Stormlord who's attacks also do 1 electricity damage and who can cast Whisper at will and complain about how he has too much fucking magic, and they don't want to play him. But precisely because he is a Storm Lord, at level 5, when they start running into flying harpies with bows, they will not complain when he can cast Windwall that he is too magicy for them. Because he still stabs the harpies in the face with a Trident when they come down to fight him inside the Wind wall.

At at level 7, when he flies up to meet the Dragon, no one is going to complain then either. Now Wind Walk at level 11, nor Control Weather at 14. Because the Storm Lord still kills things by stabbing them with Tridents, and that is what they really wanted, not the complete inability to do anything. They only reject giving Control Weather to the fighter because Storm Lords control the weather, not Fighters.

[Maxus]

I really do think that fighter-types should grow inherently stronger and faster as they level up

Even when I started D&D some...six years ago? Thereabout. Even brand new to the game, it rubbed me wrong that wizards get all this great powerful magic way above and beyond what they were doing before, but fighters are still moving 20/30 feet a round, get 4 attacks instead of one, and don't do anything really superhuman when that's the logical extension of what they should be doing.

So yeah. Anime and manga are comfortable with the idea of your character running the hundred-meter in 5.5 seconds when they're just hitting heroic status at level five or six. And by level 10-12, a moving a hundred meters is something they can do in lieu of a five-foot-step.

Well, maybe not a hundred meters precisely, but you take the meaning.

Hell, giving the melee-types a lock on super-mobility would make that hoary old casters-vs-fighters arena bullshit some interesting stuff

[Drolyt]

and you can't use bo9s to build characters who own melee and are tall enough to keep on adventuring with the casters. that doesn't mean that the idea of maneuvers and stances isn't nice as a combat resource.

I don't really give two shits about the Bo9s at this but to be honest, ultimately it modeled something for me.

You can take a sorcerer. Give him the full base attack bonus, and call him a fighter and people will still bitch infinitely on both ends.
Grognardia people who hate magic and Lago people who seem to hate the swordsman. . . as a concept.

Its the whole "Get rid of the fighter as a concept" thats fucked. It's gibberish about how magic vs skills/melee, but really its all opinion on what the constitutes a high level challenge.

Did you actually read the rest of this thread? Two points:

1. The concept of fighter is not "swordsman". The fighter has no concept. If you want a swordsman instead of a fighter than we have something to work with. We don't even have to draw from anime, mythology is full of heroes who swung swords and still had other abilities that don't suck.

2. ToB is not taking a sorcerer and giving him full BAB then calling him a fighter. That is a horrible joke. I probably give ToB more credit than most of the posters on these boards, but I'm not delusional: a sorcerer with decent spell selection is much stronger than a martial adept. By 6th level or so they are also much more versatile. By 10th level at the latest the martial adepts' ability to recover maneuvers stops mattering (this happens much earlier if the play just picks up some fucking wands) and maneuvers are so much weaker than spells there is no contest. And this is a sorcerer, who is plain weaker than a wizard (albeit I'd argue the sorcerer is closer to the right balance).

[Seerow]

2. ToB is not taking a sorcerer and giving him full BAB then calling him a fighter. That is a horrible joke. I probably give ToB more credit than most of the posters on these boards, but I'm not delusional: a sorcerer with decent spell selection is much stronger than a martial adept. By 6th level or so they are also much more versatile. By 10th level at the latest the martial adepts' ability to recover maneuvers instantly stops mattering (this happens much earlier if the play just picks up some fucking wands) and maneuvers are so much weaker than spells there is no contest. And this is a sorcerer, who is plain weaker than a wizard (albeit I'd argue the sorcerer is closer to the right balance).

I agree, but on this note I do think a solid Gish base class would be a great thing. Basically take the Duskblade, and expand on its spell list and class features until it doesn't suck. I mean take the guy with a sword and slap sorcerer spells on him is something that can actually create a balanced sword guy. Especially if you give features that help support that.

[darkmaster]

Well actually, while Shinigami have awesome Kido powers, and in fact, crazy sword powers like illusions and flowing waves of blades, and stuff, Ichigo's defining feature is how incredibly fucking boring his fighting style is.

Ichigo cannot use Kido, because he doesn't know any, and that's fine, because no one ever teaches him. And his level 0 sword (doesn't exist) upgrades to a level 1 sword by being big, which upgrades into a 1.5 sword by shooting his attack at range. And his level 1.5 sword upgrades into a bankai that allows him to move faster. So absolutely nothing about Ichigo couldn't be modelled with a character with a move speed of 200ft, Wings of Flying, and a BAB of +100 who sometimes uses a bow.

Because he is the most boring as shit character in that show when it comes to actual abilities.

I would just like to note that the most interesting character in Bleach is fucking Kenpachi who's super power is literally swording things. He actually wins a fight against someone who is ostensibly immune to swording by swording harder (he uses two hands instead of one).

By the way blood lust=best martial power source ever.

[Maxus]

Sorta. Kenpachi recently broke through and his sword's started talking to him. So now he'll probably get actual powers beyond swording people in the face.

And turns out Zaraki's been a bit of a psycho since he was a kid

[Midnight_v]

That's fine I get incomprehensible that when I start rage typing. I was saying that in response to talk of "overhaul".
Even if you raise the bar of what a "fighter" can do even if you give him fighting magic, or hell real magic in some cases... it isn't going to please 2 groups. 1 Grognards 2. Lago paranoids.
Fortunately, nothing pleases grognards so we really can just say "Fuck you" and they can say "Fuck us" and we can keep plodding on past them putting anime in our adventures if we want.

Sadly, Lago's are saying or at least SOUND like they're saying that they don't want "The swordsman" to exist as a concept, and that's pretty much just stupid, den inbred bullshit. A unnatural conclusion to all the fighter caster wars over the years.
Regardless of what the name of the class is as a concept the swordsman isn't going anywhere.
The "Fighter as a concept" actually doesn't mean anything. . .
You want to get rid of the name "fighter" suuuure, you want to get rid of the story where Drizzt do'urden is out killing balors? You're going to fucking fail on so many levels.
Not because you're wrong perse but because everyone, everywhere (outside the den) else is going to fucking laugh at you.
Really, because too many people not only love, but exalt the concept of:
Brave warrior facing overwhelming odds, a mere man and his blade, standing against the inexorable press of darkness. . . and all that jazz.
Now some stories of that vein are Paladins, and some people don't want to deal with the god baggage. Some are 'Zerkers... which seems to be only as powerful as well... however powerful devilbears get. . .
but really many people want to be involved in stories where they're not bound to bullshit power sources.
You can literally, get a working skill set in which gather information lets you perform divinations, (magic is equal to skills in power) and allow the swordguy to kill dragons, and you're there.

Its crazy that i should even have to explain shit like this... it's really more a "target audience" issue than a right/wrong issue in my opinion.

Almost every argument about fighter (if you have a fighter capable of killing shit as people keep saying) always seems to boil down to "How would he know, reach up there, get there, or survive"... which is pretty arbitrary shit overall.

Man with a sword kills dragon, in his lair. Kills a vampire horde then goes to the negative energy plane kills the vampire intelligence there, its all workable. So all in all I get no real answer ever when we start talking about high level concepts, and what contributing to that would be.

ToB is not taking a sorcerer and giving him full BAB then calling him a fighter

I didn't say it did you indolent fucker . . . I said "I don't give a fuck about the TOB, but it illustrated something for me" = on this topic some people will never be pleased. So you have to choose what groups you're going to have to look at and say "I don't care what you think or want" and make something that works for your game world.

[Midnight_v]

I would just like to note that the most interesting character in Bleach is fucking Kenpachi who's super power is literally swording things. He actually wins a fight against someone who is ostensibly immune to swording by swording harder (he uses two hands instead of one).

By the way blood lust=best martial power source ever.

If fucking love that guy. I also agree with you about him being the most interesting, and I genuinely think that many many people want to play him.

But "grit" would be a useful and understandable source which would be a measure of how much a stubborn asshole you are about dying and surviving. I've seen people use it here and there in games.
Really though personality traits like GRIT, and BLoodlust... are so internal its almost just making you a psychic warrior but really I've always dug self powered heroes for my part.

On another not Still.. high level adventure... its a mote in my eye for something that gets played so little causes so much flak. Not that it obviates the issues at hand it's just.... so annoying when the concept is so undefined.

[zugschef]

Brave warrior facing overwhelming odds, a mere man and his blade, standing against the inexorable press of darkness. . . and all that jazz.

this only works because these are stories where the author dictates everything and not games where you have a rng and several other players who affect the action, and i don't know why i have to bring that up.

[MGuy]

There was a time when I thought you could have a 'fighter' and then just give him whatever he needed to succeed in order to make him into a viable and equally contributing character. There was a time when I thought that the word fighter could be used on practically anything and people would just accept it because the rules of that thing say 'people with speshul powers' are fighters. However after the many MANY conversations I had on my little trip into TheRPGnet I learned that no... people will actually and factually GET UPSET if the fighter can have his hand at being anything more than being a pair of hands. If a Fighter can fly up to a Keep and face off against the black wizard lord with his own abilities and o aid then people will get pissed off even if the WIZARD CAN ALREADY DO THAT SAME THING.

So yes. get rid of 'the fighter'. Buy it and forget about it.

[Drolyt]

Well actually, while Shinigami have awesome Kido powers, and in fact, crazy sword powers like illusions and flowing waves of blades, and stuff, Ichigo's defining feature is how incredibly fucking boring his fighting style is.

Ichigo cannot use Kido, because he doesn't know any, and that's fine, because no one ever teaches him. And his level 0 sword (doesn't exist) upgrades to a level 1 sword by being big, which upgrades into a 1.5 sword by shooting his attack at range. And his level 1.5 sword upgrades into a bankai that allows him to move faster. So absolutely nothing about Ichigo couldn't be modelled with a character with a move speed of 200ft, Wings of Flying, and a BAB of +100 who sometimes uses a bow.

Because he is the most boring as shit character in that show when it comes to actual abilities.

I would just like to note that the most interesting character in Bleach is fucking Kenpachi who's super power is literally swording things. He actually wins a fight against someone who is ostensibly immune to swording by swording harder (he uses two hands instead of one).

By the way blood lust=best martial power source ever.

Kenpachi is on another level than D&D fighters though. He is basically invincible and can destroy skyscrapers like they are nothing. He gets a measure of noncombat utility just from the sheer destruction he can wreak on the world. And although he doesn't have kido he does have flash step and the ability to fly on the material plane.

ToB is not taking a sorcerer and giving him full BAB then calling him a fighter

I didn't say it did you indolent fucker. . . I said "I don't give a fuck about the TOB, but it illustrated something for me" = on this topic some people will never be please. So you have to choose what groups you're going to have to look at and say "I don't care what you think or want" and make something that works for your game world.

I realize that isn't exactly what you said, but everything you are saying makes it sound like you are ignoring one of the points that the Lagos of the world are making: ToB didn't go far enough, especially in terms of out of combat abilities.
Edit: Also, indolent? I mean fucker is just generic insult, but what about my post was indolent? I'm not sure how you can even be indolent on the internet.

[darkmaster]

Kenpachi is on another level than D&D fighters though. He is basically invincible and can destroy skyscrapers like they are nothing. He gets a measure of noncombat utility just from the sheer destruction he can wreak on the world. And although he doesn't have kido he does have flash step and the ability to fly on the material plane.

Yeah, and why would the D&D fighter doing that be bad? I mean, that would be awesome! Flash step is just running really fast (that's literally what it is) and it's not really flight so much as running on the air which- yeah that's weird- but seriously call that shit hitting the air so hard with your feet that the back draft pushes you up and your golden. As for destruction, well, that just seems like the logical conclusion of being so strong you can run on the air.

[Kaelik]

I would just like to note that the most interesting character in Bleach is fucking Kenpachi who's super power is literally swording things. He actually wins a fight against someone who is ostensibly immune to swording by swording harder (he uses two hands instead of one).

Regardless of whether or not Kenpachi is an interesting character, his combat style is boring as shit, unless someone draws pictures for you. Swording Harder is not interesting as a mechanical concept. No one has ever felt like their character was more interesting because it did twice as much damage. Pretty pictures can make anything interesting, and interesting characters are determined by stuff that is not the same thing as interesting combat.

Sadly, Lago's are saying or at least SOUND like they're saying that they don't want "The swordsman" to exist as a concept, and that's pretty much just stupid, den inbred bullshit. A unnatural conclusion to all the fighter caster wars over the years.

You are either a fucking idiot who can't read, or you are a fucking idiot, because swordsmen as a concept is just an even shittier version of the fighter.

No one is saying you can't kill things with weapons. But yes, we are in fact saying that you have to have some magic power source of some kind to matter, and the point is, people really are totally fine with that.

Not because you're wrong perse but because everyone, everywhere (outside the den) else is going to fucking laugh at you.

Oh I see, you have a telepathic connection to the entire universe and therefore know what everyone else wants and you know that no one will ever play a game that requires them to have a power source. Except all the people who play 3e as anything that isn't a fighter. Which is all the people who play 3e.

Really, because too many people not only love, but exalt the concept of:
Brave warrior facing overwhelming odds, a mere man and his blade, standing against the inexorable press of darkness. . . and all that jazz.

Yes, we know Elennsar exists. But we don't care, because 95% of gamers are not Elennsars, and therefore do not insist that their character be mechanically weaker and incapable but succeed somehow. They are fine with mechanically capable characters like Storm Lords and Blood Lords and shit who use their magic to aid their stabbing and to do things outside of combat.

You can literally, get a working skill set in which gather information lets you perform divinations, (magic is equal to skills in power) and allow the swordguy to kill dragons, and you're there.

No, you definitely can't. You are seriously arguing that all the legions of people who will absolutely refuse to play a Paladin/Ranger/Storm Lord/Blood Warrior and must play a guy with absolutely no magic will be totally find when they ask commoners on the street to explain to them the secret plans that the BBEG has never told anyone?

You are full of shit.

[Midnight_v]

Brave warrior facing overwhelming odds, a mere man and his blade, standing against the inexorable press of darkness. . . and all that jazz.

this only works because these are stories where the author dictates everything and not games where you have a rng and several other players who affect the action, and i don't know why i have to bring that up.

You have to bring it up cause you're an ass.
I'm aware of that shit completely, I've been here at the den for years.
The point I'm making is regardless, people want to model that story at all levels of D&D.
Further... we're talking about conceptual space here. Not actual gameplay. Trying to volley back and forth here is total bullshit.

Because seriously it already established that you can arbitrarily give fighters whatever they need to keep playing the game.
Mechanically, you can even make classes that actually GET story rewards and that shit is totally playable

Elothar, Warrior of Blade Reach.

So that mechanics argument about "Rng, and other players" is seriously just masturbatory stock answer #17. totally irrelevant to if it can exist as a concept.

you are ignoring one of the points that the Lagos of the world are making: ToB didn't go far enough, especially in terms of out of combat abilities.

Well... to be honest with you. Lago has been at this a long while, and even the tome fighter (which can snap the game in half by swording and taking skill feats to find you) is displeasing to him.
There's really no saying the "Foil, monster" doesn't go far enough mechanically, if build right.
So yeah, I am ignoring him because, really, if we went far enough, and gave the fighter sorcerer level power or made him Elothar or better, I'm not sure he'd be okay with it even then.

Though again... we're supposed to be talking concept.

So the question is: If the TOB went "far enough" and thats completely up to whatever you measure "X" would he still take issue with it? Because classes that go far enough totally can and have been designed.

However after the many MANY conversations I had on my little trip into TheRPGnet I learned that no... people will actually and factually GET UPSET if the fighter can have his hand at being anything more than being a pair of hands. If a Fighter can fly up to a Keep and face off against the black wizard lord with his own abilities and o aid then people will get pissed off even if the WIZARD CAN ALREADY DO THAT SAME THING.

Hmm... that's the first group of people you have to say "fuck you, no" too.
Anyone, who actively denies there is a problem or refuses to change based on undefined irrationality"
They really are out there, a big part of their platform is "Its not broke, don't fix it" but we know there's a problem and thats not a gap easily fixed.

[Drolyt]

Kenpachi is on another level than D&D fighters though. He is basically invincible and can destroy skyscrapers like they are nothing. He gets a measure of noncombat utility just from the sheer destruction he can wreak on the world. And although he doesn't have kido he does have flash step and the ability to fly on the material plane.

Yeah, and why would the D&D fighter doing that be bad?

Beats me.

I mean, that would be awesome! Flash step is just running really fast (that's literally what it is)

I think flash step would be best represented as moving a certain distance as a swift action, or further as a full round action. The point is that it is a burst of speed that sets you up to attack before the opponent can react. It should probably set you up for sneak attack damage, that is basically how Byakuya used it.

and it's not really flight so much as running on the air which- yeah that's weird- but seriously call that shit hitting the air so hard with your feet that the back draft pushes you up and your golden.

Call it what you want, but a fly speed is the easiest way to represent it.

As for destruction, well, that just seems like the logical conclusion of being so strong you can run on the air.

Sure, but D&D rules as written give objects of any size obscene hit points.

[Midnight_v]

Yeah, and why would the D&D fighter doing that be bad? I mean, that would be awesome! Flash step is just running really fast (that's literally what it is) and it's not really flight so much as running on the air which- yeah that's weird- but seriously call that shit hitting the air so hard with your feet that the back draft pushes you up and your golden. As for destruction, well, that just seems like the logical conclusion of being so strong you can run on the air.

I agree. I think I... I seriously thought when I came into 3.5... high level fighters were exactly like that. I was surprised to find out different, but that's one of the concepts I think I'd like more, than what we get.

Kaelik is almost always full of shit. Angst and shit. Moreso, you're a hypocrite, or a moron, I can never quite tell which is why you're on ignore just like shad.
Seriously, you nitpicking bitch. You put this:

No one has ever felt like their character was more interesting because it did twice as much damage.

and this:

Oh I see, you have a telepathic connection to the entire universe and therefore know what everyone else wants

I kept seeing you post shit. I knew you were being an idiot like always.
So if you feel so strongly that you're right an I'm wrong. Go and post a conversation on Wotc, or whatever the top 3 D&D game sites are and see what they say.
You'll just slump back here to wank, and cry that "BAAAWW, people are so stupid and wrong." but fuck you for you're thoughts on the how interesting kempachi is part.
Goddamn, hypocrite.

[zugschef]

"fighter" sucks because "sneak" and "spellcaster" would suck as a classes, too. if there was a class which could do shit, you wouldn't call that class fighter if you have half a brain.