Favorite Deities

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jadagul
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Post by jadagul »

icyshadowlord wrote:
jadagul wrote:Look back at my post. This was all premised on the idea that we stop having gods grant spells at all, because that leads to all sorts of stupid--firstly, that we can't have a religion of the Prophet, and in fact can't really have a religion without a quasi-activist deity. And second, you can't have the PCs get powerful enough to challenge gods, because that does really weird things to your cleric's mechanical interactions.

Really, you should just go that Divine magic is a type of magic, and some people can use it. You can even say that its use comes from a type of focus and devotion usually associated with religion, but that it doesn't need to be tied to an actual god--which even D&D does, since you can have clerics of ideals or whatever. But stop having gods grant spells and then everything else becomes more sensible.
So where would Divine Magic, domains and such come from in a setting like that? If the gods don't grant spells to the party's Cleric, what will? What is the Cleric class in such a setting?

Edit: Had to fix this post a bit. I find the suggestion equal amounts intriguing and confusing, so I figured I might as well start asking questions about it.
Well, there are two options. One is that "divine" is a flavor of magic. Wizards gain magic through intellectual study. Sorcerors gain magic through natural mutant powers. Clerics gain magic through religious contemplation. But that magic comes from the _mindset of contemplation_, not from whichever deity or force is being contemplated. Or, to put it another way, no one asks what deity gives monks their powers.

The other option is that priest is a job description, not a class. And some priests of the Fire God can do magic with fire and that's represented game mechanically by them being fire mages. That's a totally sensible way to do things but isn't classic D&D.
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Post by icyshadowlord »

I wonder if I should do that instead. I'm still kind of used to the whole "this god grants this domain" way of doing things, and I'm pretty sure I can go with that since that's also what my players are used to. This topic did remind me, didn't Eberron have sort of the same thing as jadagul is trying to go for? From what I read, the mortals rarely if ever saw any direct actions being taken by the gods, to the point where they might as well not exist in the way the deities do in other settings.
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Post by Username17 »

When you get into the nitty gritty of the D&D cosmology it's both complicated and stupid. It's sort of an incoherent mishmash of Christianity and Hinduism. The divine power actually comes from some sort of primal sources which are themselves aspects of an even more primal oneness, and the gods just pass on divine power to their followers in some manner that is extremely puzzling because if you really press the D&D authors on this they will admit that the gods aren't actually necessary for this process at all (see: priests of concepts in the 3e PHB or the Athar priests in 2e Planescape).

Fundamentally, you seriously don't need the gods to be "granting spells" because your spells work the same way whether there's a god granting them or not. Going through a godly intermediary is just appointing some floating head to be your editor, able to cut you off from the source at any time if that is what they want to do. But you can still reconnect to the source and get the same power by appointing a different sky fairy or just moving on with your life and dedicating yourself to abstract villainy or something. Even Paladins get to trade in their Paladinhood for full value if they rededicate themselves to a new mission statement such as "kick all the puppies" or "giant frog".

Having the actual gods involved in the proces of Clerics getting spells just mucks everything up. It's not necessary. You get spells by channeling the great other, and joining a specific priesthood is like an organizational prestige class or class kit.

All the Church of Hextor needs to have or to be is a pile of Yodaisms that teach you to be a better divine channeler in the same way that a school of swordsmanship or a thief's guild teaches you to be a better fighter or rogue. Which is to say that we acknowledge that people in-world get practical training but it doesn't actually affect player characters one way or the other because PCs gain levels by killing monsters and not by taking classes at Wizard Academy.

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Post by icyshadowlord »

Oddly enough, the whole concept cleric thing has never been put to use at the tables I play in, and from what I've seen, some of Pathfinder devs wanted to make the whole "Clerics must worship a god" thing an actual rule instead of a setting-specific limitation.

Edit: That is, you can worship a concept but you won't be getting any divine spells or domains from doing so.

Edit 2: I am sort of at a loss due to this thread.

I worked hard on making a few neat pantheons as well as what domains are granted by which deity, but now I feel like I did the latter part pretty much for nothing considering the failure of logic that is the classical D&D deity system.

Even though my players don't question it, now I'm stuck doing just that. (Also cheers for weird formatting of post!)
Last edited by icyshadowlord on Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:42 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Ancient History »

More on what Frank said, the same basic paradigm of "yadda yadda One Source" applies to fair number of other games and fictional universes as well (go look up "magic" on a Star Wars wiki. I'll wait.) Part of it is based on comparative anthropology like Frazer's Golden Bough and Campbell's The Hero With a Thousand Faces which helped show people that lots of ancient religions are weird beliefs were very similar expressions that diverged or became corrupted over time, and part of it is stuff like Chaos Magic where people said that any paradigm works as long as you believe in it - but at the end of the day, there's a strong cultural bias toward monotheism and things generally get simplified down to "one supreme power above all," even in settings with a basically dualistic good vs. evil or law vs. chaos motif.
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Post by Username17 »

Gods actually transferring spells to their followers is really fraught with contradiction. First of all, if the god is actually doing some kind of imbue with spell ability bullshit, why do we track the caster level of the priest instead of the power of the god? Secondly, any creature powerful enough to have enough 6th level spell slots just lying around that they can transfer four of them to every 12th level Cleric in the entire Empire of Man is simply way too powerful to have coherent stories told where they are an actual actor. And finally of course, even at the ridiculous power level set for a god by such terms, a character who keeps gaining levels will eventually surpass it - leading to a crisis of WTF when the Cleric eventually equals their own god. Whence come their spell slots then?

Trying to make gods be a personal, spell handling force is simple doomed to failure. Making them important to the workings of the game world in that fashion also makes them powerful enough that the game world cannot work.

Like "spell memorization", the idea of gods "granting spells" was just a shitty idea and a meme that needs to die. Wizards "prepare spells" now and we don't try to make things popping in and out of "memory" make any sense. And that's a positive improvement. Things are equally better and for the same reason when we just have Clerics "prepare spells" and get rid of the whole bullshit about begging for spell packets from gods. Having your personal god ration you some cure moderate wounds and a knife spray instead of just giving you an insect plague and a crawling darkness to get their enemies good and smitten makes no more sense than trying to explain how a Magic User "memorized lightning bolt twice".

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Post by icyshadowlord »

Frank, now that you're done deconstructing the whole idea of "Gods grant Clerics their spells" meme, what do you suppose as an alternative that works within the system but doesn't force me to completely rewrite every damned deity and religion in my setting?
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Post by Ancient History »

It's doubly weird because in most sword & sorcery, your priests generally double as wizards (magic-wise), and the only benefit from praying to a god is when they need a miracle (dark or otherwise).

Compare with how Marvel Comics handles magic (or did, for a while). At the most basic level you have the personal powers of the magician (telepathy, levitation, meditation, hypnosis, kung fu, etc.), and then you have your basic mystic arts drawing on local power sources (energy blasts, illusions, maybe some teleportation), and if you wanted to do anything really big you needed to call on some extradimensional sources of power as embodied by mystic entities (Mephito, Cyttorak, the Vishanti, etc.) - and those entities had a say in how shit went down, and generally calling on their power both required a sacrifice of personal energy and you owed them one. So there were some established spells that called on those guys they'd answer automatically, and you could call on them directly, but at some point they could (and probably would) call in their debt. For Mephisto or Sattanish that would just be your soul or whatever, but the other guys were known to get creative.

[/edit]
And that's not a bad mechanic. If you just let all clerics be wizards that have a personal divine patron who's willing to grant them some bonus spells and fast-tracked magical knowledge in exchange for worship/reciprocal service (in the here AND the hereafter).
Last edited by Ancient History on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

icyshadowlord wrote:Frank, now that you're done deconstructing the whole idea of "Gods grant Clerics their spells" meme, what do you suppose as an alternative that works within the system but doesn't force me to completely rewrite every damned deity and religion in my setting?
Simple really. Each religion is exactly like a school of magic or a school of swording or whatever. People who follow the teachings of a religion get powers they can channel, and if people run off to be adventurers they can also learn to channel powers. And being in a different religion hands you a different pile of magics in exactly the same way and to the same extent as specializing in a different school of magic or swordsmanship does.

And the various religions and gods and stuff are fairly partisan. Obviously, Loviatar is more favorably disposed to people who follow the tenets of Loviatarism and Ukko is more favorably disposed to people who follow the tenets of Ukkoism. And both of those deities may well decide to personally go fuck some things up in the name of their followers. On the other hand, they might have shit to do or simply not notice.

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Post by icyshadowlord »

So I'd just give each Cleric of a given Deity their own spell list, or...?
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Post by Ancient History »

Probably closer to 3.0 Domain lists, depending on the system you're using, but less restrictive since you can make new spells that use <insert_deity_here>'s power in a different way. Like maybe a high-level cleric of Thor decides that the "Summon Hammer" cantrip doesn't quite cut it anymore and decides to research a "Summon Mjolnir" spell or something so he can lay the smack-down for <level> rounds.
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Post by Username17 »

icyshadowlord wrote:So I'd just give each Cleric of a given Deity their own spell list, or...?
If you're playing 3e, you don't need to do anything. Being from a specific church gives you a couple of domain powers, a domain spell slot at each level, and takes a couple of aligned spells from your opposed alignment off your list. Why would anything need to be more complicated than that?

If you're a lay cleric who pursues their own theology in the wilderness, you get the same thing, just presumably a different couple of domains. In exactly the same way as a hedge wizard illusionist gets the same deal as a wizard who studied at the imperial college of illusionism.

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Post by icyshadowlord »

By 3e you mean 3.5e and Pathfinder as well, or just 3.0e ?

And if the game mechanics don't need changing, what exactly does?
Last edited by icyshadowlord on Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

icyshadowlord wrote: And if the game mechanics don't need changing, what exactly does?
The basic description that the books sometimes cling to but not really. The game rules can still work just fine as is with the description being that your own insight and mental attunement and mescaline habit all grant you these powers, and it still makes sense in-game.
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Post by Ancient History »

"Mescaline powers, activate! The colors..."
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Post by hogarth »

Captain_Karzak wrote:
hogarth wrote: As an addendum to his post, I'll add this: gimmicky deities like the Libris Mortis woman mentioned in the initial post are cool, but if all of your deities have some weird gimmick then your pantheon sucks. That's my problem with Paizo's Golarion campaign setting; they try so hard to give every deity (and country and NPC, etc.) an unusual twist that there's little room to tell stories that require a more vanilla flavour.
I basically just want a group of "interesting" (gimmicky?) gods, and the players can import whomever the hell they want if they need something more vanilla, which is how I would describe the PHB deities.

Is there a reason this approach might fail?
There's nothing wrong with that. It's just worth noting that, nine times out of ten, coming up with a neat idea for something is ten times more interesting for the inventor than for everybody else. So coming up with a pantheon of wild and wacky deities is roughly 90% GM wankery. I'm not opposed to wanking (far from it!) as long as the GM gets the really important parts of the job done.

I can't be the only one who has experience with GMs who geek out over creating details of a campaign world that no players will ever see and who subsequently implode when it comes to running an actual game.
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Post by icyshadowlord »

I have been fearing that I might end up like that.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

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Post by Ancient History »

Cerebus leads an army of cheerleaders.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

It's been a while since I read Cerebus, but I don't think he ever led the Conniptins. I seem to recall on at least two occasions him walking away from them in disgust, though.
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Post by echoVanguard »

Getting back to the spirit of the original inquiry, I think my favorite D&D God is probably a tie between St. Cuthbert, because the idea of an ideological dogma of "BEAT THE FAITH INTO THE STUPID UNBELIEVERS" is funny in a bit of a sad way, and Vecna, because a God of "Stuff You Aren't Supposed to Know About Also Kill People Who Shouldn't Know Things" is ripe for story hooks.

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Post by Ancient History »

Crypts of Chaos had Jack o'Spells, who was sorta the God of Powergaming and Lateral Thinking. She was pretty popular for the couple of posts she appeared in.

My favorite D&D god was Blibdoolpoolp, if only because of the cognitive dissonance of fish-people worshipping a nude human woman with the head and claws of a crawdad.

[/edit]Also, Blib is the Goddess of Fanservice.
Last edited by Ancient History on Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sashi »

echoVanguard wrote:Vecna, because a God of "Stuff You Aren't Supposed to Know About Also Kill People Who Shouldn't Know Things" is ripe for story hooks.
also Vecna is one of the only gods with real drive and vision.
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Post by Username17 »

St. Cuthbert and Vecna were both literally created to troll players.

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Post by Omegonthesane »

FrankTrollman wrote:St. Cuthbert and Vecna were both literally created to troll players.

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Wait, really? Elaborate please. Especially the former.
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