Is D&D 3e the best we'll ever have?

[tussock]

In general, 3e is like someone explained how to play AD&D with all the bells and whistles. So people can read it and agree what it means and get on with the underlying entertainment. Also, player empowerment, tough monsters, and character customisation that wasn't stupidly broken out the gate.

@Items

AD&D is a game where you sell almost all your items for XP, and if someone breaks your sword you just pick a decent one up in the next fight for slightly less XP than selling it would get you. Sometimes you find yourself using a +3 spear with some weird power you don't quite understand for a while because it's only -2 without proficiency. If it's a good enough spear, you can pick up a proficiency later.

2nd edition is a game of incredible fuck-tons of useless crap that someone carries in a portable hole because there are edge cases where some of it makes for good fridge-logic moments. If someone breaks your sword, well, you have fifty spare magic swords. You're also wearing a cloak of the manta-ray, because it was there, maybe someday you'll get to use it. Man that force-cube thing would've helped in the last fight, if we'd remembered it. LOL.

3e is a game where you need to turn your +3 necklace into +4 necklace because that's next in the queue, and whatever you're finding is fungible toward that goal, including weird +3 spears and transforming cloaks and force-cubes. 4e automates some of that process for you.

@Casters

Oh my God playing an AD&D Wizard is hard. Even in 2nd ed. where you get better spells and crazy bonuses for nothing, you are incredibly vulnerable and glass-jawed in a game where the rest of the classes basically don't need you for a very long time. Yes, the spells are awesome^3, many of them breaking the game quite badly, and your enemy is as grass before the lawnmower, but it's constant care for that payoff.

Most 3e spells are comparatively crap, huge nerfing went on. But the ease of dropping a the best of the rest onto team monster turned the game on it's ear. Not to mention you get 9th level spells the XP-equivalent of four levels earlier, as if everyone else wasn't already relatively crap up there. Oh, and saves you can't make, and no interruption, and have some more spells, and recover in no time, it's cool, can't possibly hurt. And then Pathfinder did that all over again, because it worked so well the first time.

Also, Savage Species/3.5 Monsters, moar casting methods, .... I should work on my AD&D conversion, but it's much easier to just endlessly complain.

[hogarth]

3E/4E magic items were about constantly upgrading your belt of strength, or your ring of protection or your amulet of natural armor. In my opinion, it felt too Diable-esqe was a step back from AD&D, where finding something like a girdle of giant strength was a big milestone in your character's life.

I don't know what to tell you. I've played 3E with stingy DMs and I've played AD&D with lavish DMs; I've never noticed a particular bias one way or the other.

[Mask_De_H]

See also the bit about [dWo] where you actually need an expensive advertising campaign, including regular television, so get the word out there, and to really shake the gaming world up, complete with Kevin Nash walking into the middle of a presentation by Mearls, interrupting him and spraying the logo of your product over a 5E book.

Can we get Roman Reigns to spear him into traction instead?

[Cyberzombie]

3E/4E magic items were about constantly upgrading your belt of strength, or your ring of protection or your amulet of natural armor. In my opinion, it felt too Diable-esqe was a step back from AD&D, where finding something like a girdle of giant strength was a big milestone in your character's life.

I don't know what to tell you. I've played 3E with stingy DMs and I've played AD&D with lavish DMs; I've never noticed a particular bias one way or the other.

It wasn't so much the amount of treasure handed out, as much as it was what the treasure did. AD&D characters had interesting magical items that did interesting things. In 3E, your magic item list was a bunch of bonus items, a ring of freedom of movement and a flight item.

I felt it was a step back when every PC's magic item list looked virtually identical and all the fun creativity of finding out of the box uses for your cubes of force or bag of beans was basically out the window, to be replaced with a seemingly never-ending list of totally sterile but utterly necessary bonus items that added no imagination or creativity to the game. I also remember back when PCs could actually buy strongholds, ships and other cool stuff, because they weren't afraid of wasting money and falling behind on their next cloak of resistance upgrade.

In many ways 3E did to magical items what 4E would later do to the entire game. There were many great innovations by 3E, but magic items... definitely a step back. I don't want items that grant small bonuses, I want swords of sharpness that send people's limbs flying off.

[codeGlaze]

In many ways 3E did to magical items what 4E would later do to the entire game. There were many great innovations by 3E, but magic items... definitely a step back. I don't want items that grant small bonuses, I want swords of sharpness that send people's limbs flying off.

I sort of have to agree...
I want magic items that do cool stuff because my hero is cool and has cool things. Bot because I need magic items X, Y and Z in order to even be relevant at 'i' level of play.

[Voss]

3E/4E magic items were about constantly upgrading your belt of strength, or your ring of protection or your amulet of natural armor. In my opinion, it felt too Diable-esqe was a step back from AD&D, where finding something like a girdle of giant strength was a big milestone in your character's life.

I don't know what to tell you. I've played 3E with stingy DMs and I've played AD&D with lavish DMs; I've never noticed a particular bias one way or the other.

It wasn't so much the amount of treasure handed out, as much as it was what the treasure did. AD&D characters had interesting magical items that did interesting things. In 3E, your magic item list was a bunch of bonus items, a ring of freedom of movement and a flight item.

Hmm. I agree that 3e magic was out of hand and silly, with lots of bullshit bonuses, but 1e/2e items weren't all that fantastic. I had pages of treasure that were just +1 bullshit items (weapons, armor, rings), particularly spectacularly offensive shit like +1 glaive-guisarmes and holy water sprinklers. The interesting stuff was the same across 1st-3rd editions: rings of elemental command, rods of lordly might, etc. There was still the pokey crap like pearls of power, bracers of armor/AC. Just less of the natural armor and the like, and rings of protection handled saves and AC bonuses simultaneously rather than being split into multiple items.

[Sashi]

The difference is that in prior editions all those bullshit items just kind of hung around. And you could give them away or parcel them out to the garrison of your keep.

In 3E you were mathematically forced to trade all those items in at the magic mart for an additional +2 to your gloves of dex or whatever.

In a lot of ways the direct coupling of GP to character power is worse than just getting magic items randomly.

[Koumei]

Can we get Roman Reigns to spear him into traction instead?

Is Roman... one of the agents of SHIELD? We don't need the new repeats of the nWo (New Blood, WCW/ECW Invasion, Nexus, CORRE, Shield, Fourtune, Immortal, Main Event Mafia, A&8), we need the original.

[RadiantPhoenix]

In a lot of ways the direct coupling of GP to character power is worse than just getting magic items randomly.

"Damn WBL, messing up everything..."


(BTW, I pronounce WBL as, "wibble")

[Aryxbez]

I wouldn't wish the thankless, painful, and not at all rewarding task of "designing a large product that doesn't suck as a business venture" on any of the talented people around here. I like most of them too much for that.

While I wouldn't want bad things on talented folk, they are of few left I'm aware of that are capable of making a difference in this industry. Which was reminded prior, those that could have left for more greener pastures (figurative & literally). I like to think the monetary incentive idea, and long overdue revitalization would help to bring desire for undertaking this monumental task.

I assume the bolding of my name is to trigger my ego.

So basically, who here is a bad enough dude to betray 3.X, declare clanwide extermination on it, conquer the roleplaying world and such?

It wasn't my intention as it's just my posting style, but if it inspires, then all the better.

I think almost any of us is willing to "betray" 3.X, or any system that could be replaced with better ideas/design. Not like D&D is going to be surviving much longer anyway, so "conquering" what is dying is already fitting. Though true, whole marketing bit is what makes it one of the most hardest obstacles (maybe could get Mearls to Diplo a cult for our system for when he's inevitably fired?)

If you want to create the next D&D, then just go do it and post it on TGD

Easier Said than done, there are easily dozens of "Fantasy Heartbreakers" that have been declared on this very forum, only to have apparently gone little-nowhere. Seemingly in part due to laziness, understaffed (1-2,opposed to 5++man teams), lack of monetary incentive and a deadline to reach. Though, difficulty can also be how to go about things, or where to start (Thankfully,some direction on that)

[MGuy]

Easier Said than done, there are easily dozens of "Fantasy Heartbreakers" that have been declared on this very forum, only to have apparently gone little-nowhere. Seemingly in part due to laziness, understaffed (1-2,opposed to 5++man teams), lack of monetary incentive and a deadline to reach.

All of these are pretty hard hitters for me but the biggest thing holding me back is simply the lack of interest in playing with better rules from the people I actually physically game with. Since they all 'just want to play pathfinder' I'm shackled to running pathfinder. With life otherwise taking up most of the rest of my free time along with the time I have to take use to create stuff for the 2 PF games I run I just don't have the incentive to finish. They like my ideas but feel as though my houseruling PF does the job well enough.

[virgil]

Easier Said than done, there are easily dozens of "Fantasy Heartbreakers" that have been declared on this very forum, only to have apparently gone little-nowhere. Seemingly in part due to laziness, understaffed (1-2,opposed to 5++man teams), lack of monetary incentive and a deadline to reach.

All of these are pretty hard hitters for me but the biggest thing holding me back is simply the lack of interest in playing with better rules from the people I actually physically game with. Since they all 'just want to play pathfinder' I'm shackled to running pathfinder. With life otherwise taking up most of the rest of my free time along with the time I have to take use to create stuff for the 2 PF games I run I just don't have the incentive to finish. They like my ideas but feel as though my houseruling PF does the job well enough.

Everything MGuy says. It's frustrating as hell.

I've actually got four adventures fully developed I want to e-publish to at least get it out there in a more professional-looking capacity; but since this is a one-man operation, I have to do the editing and layout myself, which is emotionally draining when I don't have the experience or interest in that aspect of writing.

[Mask_De_H]

Can we get Roman Reigns to spear him into traction instead?

Is Roman... one of the agents of SHIELD? We don't need the new repeats of the nWo (New Blood, WCW/ECW Invasion, Nexus, CORRE, Shield, Fourtune, Immortal, Main Event Mafia, A&8), we need the original.

Yeah, he is. Kevin Nash is old and busted though. If we're gonna be the new blood, we need new blood.

And getting over pure human laziness/apathy is a massive hurdle. Remember, we're a niche of a niche and people are generally okay with Pathfinder. Some poor bastards actually believe it's a marked improvement on 3.X.

[ishy]

My biggest hurdle is that I don't know any artists and you need art to sell a rpg.

[JonSetanta]

My biggest hurdle is that I don't know any artists and you need art to sell a rpg.

One of the designers for Eclipse Phase told me a while ago that the art was the biggest drain on their finances

You could do the original D&D route and hand draw your own. Poor quality, laughable, but charming.

[virgil]

My biggest hurdle is that I don't know any artists and you need art to sell a rpg.

One of the designers for Eclipse Phase told me a while ago that the art was the biggest drain on their finances

I totally believe that. My wife is a professional artist, and I still can't afford her.

[K]

My biggest hurdle is that I don't know any artists and you need art to sell a rpg.

One of the designers for Eclipse Phase told me a while ago that the art was the biggest drain on their finances

You could do the original D&D route and hand draw your own. Poor quality, laughable, but charming.

I would really love to hear some pricing numbers from professional artists.

[codeGlaze]

My biggest hurdle is that I don't know any artists and you need art to sell a rpg.

One of the designers for Eclipse Phase told me a while ago that the art was the biggest drain on their finances

You could do the original D&D route and hand draw your own. Poor quality, laughable, but charming.

I would really love to hear some pricing numbers from professional artists.

I suppose it depends on your definition of professional.

Freelancers can on places like DevArt can go from ...
(Prices are typically for single characters)
Concept sketches : $15 - $20

to

full digital color commission + hi res file: $80 - $200

All that can depend on the complexity of the picture, number of characters and picture size.

That's just a quick preliminary search through my favorites, though.

[hogarth]

One of the designers for Eclipse Phase told me a while ago that the art was the biggest drain on their finances

You could do the original D&D route and hand draw your own. Poor quality, laughable, but charming.

I would really love to hear some pricing numbers from professional artists.

For what it's worth, James Jacobs (of Paizo) claimed that, for Dragon magazine, "a page of art costs well over ten times the amount of a page of text".

[codeGlaze]

For what it's worth, James Jacobs (of Paizo) claimed that, for Dragon magazine, "a page of art costs well over ten times the amount of a page of text".

Yea, I'm going to have to assume that a piece done within a time frame, instead of when ever the artist has time, would be at least double to triple what freelance commissions are.

[JonSetanta]

For a detailed image I was thinking somewhere in the hundreds

[Previn]

One of the designers for Eclipse Phase told me a while ago that the art was the biggest drain on their finances

You could do the original D&D route and hand draw your own. Poor quality, laughable, but charming.

I would really love to hear some pricing numbers from professional artists.

For what it's worth, James Jacobs (of Paizo) claimed that, for Dragon magazine, "a page of art costs well over ten times the amount of a page of text".

Given how much of a pittance the pay for a page of text is, that's not saying much.

[K]

I would really love to hear some pricing numbers from professional artists.

For what it's worth, James Jacobs (of Paizo) claimed that, for Dragon magazine, "a page of art costs well over ten times the amount of a page of text".

Given how much of a pittance the pay for a page of text is, that's not saying much.

I've heard that cover art costs in the $2,000 to $5,000 from an established artist, but I figured that basic character paintings and the classic DnD "monster + adventurer" art is probably a few hundred a pop.

Eclipse Phase has art in the "oh shit, that's nice" range and I'd really like to know how much they charge. I'm less interested in the crap dropped into books like Monsters or Faerun, but it would be a useful data point.

Rifts is probably the gold standard for cheap art because it's mostly line drawings in the style of comics and that's probably as low quality as any serious RPG designer wants to go.

[Previn]

Well, you can get cheap art if you're will to look. The actual cost of art comes down how big/detailed the piece is, if it's color or black and white, what rights you're buying from the artist for use, and most importantly, how big a name the artist is. How much any individual piece of art costs, or what the average is is almost impossible to tell without talking to the individual artist on that commission.

All of that is also curbed by the fact that some companies just do not pay decent for art. CGL pay for art is, well, shit. The artists for Battletech often turn down art offers in favor of other work because of how poorly it pays, even when compared to other similar jobs in the gaming field.

Anthony Scroggins is 360$ and up for high quality full color art and 120$ for sketches. I wouldn't mind using some of his sketches as interior artwork.

Mark Zug requires 500$ minimum for a simple color portrait with no background. I think he's way overcharging given his quality.

Terese Nielsen runs around 120$ for original B/W sketches, and I think between 450$ starting for color art. I can find equivalent art to her color stuff for around 100-150$ from small artists.

Stephan Martiniere was the cover artist for Eclipse Phase and he's something of a big name in the Sci-fi art, I know he does commissions, but I haven't tried to find out what he charges.

If you’re will to go with people new to the industry or trying to break into it, you can get some really good art really cheap, typically half the cost of a professional name. Getting a big published piece in a book can give significant exposure that's worth a lot in the art world as opposed to just the upfront payment.

[erik]

Rifts is probably the gold standard for cheap art because it's mostly line drawings in the style of comics and that's probably as low quality as any serious RPG designer wants to go.

Or even lower quality than anyone wants to go. Cheap too since some (and some of the worst, natch) is by the owner.