Good and Evil in D&D

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TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

silva wrote:
ishy wrote:Sure the alignment stuff D&D uses is far from perfect, but why replace it with something that is bad?
Either replace it with something that is actually worth the time and effort of you and your other players, or don't bother.
Sure, the proposed model is not perfect either, but at least it replaces the infantile and ambiguous objective truth of alignments by something more relatable and adult. in other words: "Good" is what I do/my religion says/my elders tell me, no matter what.
Actually, that's ethics vs morality.

Ethics and morals both relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. However, ethics refer to the series of rules provided to an individual by an external source. e.g. their profession. On the other hand, morals refer to an individual’s own principles regarding right and wrong.

So in a weird way, you're describing the lawful/chaotic axis of D&D's alignment system, where as good and evil reflect the morality of the individual.
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Post by NineInchNall »

Koumei wrote:The particles and the actions actually attract one another. So while a Devil is built out of Orderons and Evilons, and therefore is compelled to do Lawful Evil acts, a regular person who ends up doing enough Lawful and Evil things draws so many Orderons and Evilons to themselves that they gain the alignment.
It certainly does give you a way to view the alignment subtypes. Something with the [Lawful] and [Chaotic] subtypes (like devils) is to some degree composed of Orderons and Evilons.

*shrug* Most people have antirealist ethical intuitions, though, so it's rather difficult not to default to those when playing the game.
TheFlatline wrote: Actually, that's ethics vs morality.

Ethics and morals both relate to “right” and “wrong” conduct. However, ethics refer to the series of rules provided to an individual by an external source. e.g. their profession. On the other hand, morals refer to an individual’s own principles regarding right and wrong.
What? Common misconception, I suppose, but no.

If you want to split some rather fine hairs, morality could be seen as a subset of ethics, since ethics can feasibly cover categories of right action that are intuitively not covered by morality. However, in practical use, even among philosophers, the two terms are essentially interchangeable.
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Post by TheFlatline »

That's why the dictionary has the definition:

Ethics:
the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture

Morality:
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

While they're very similar and often overlap, there is a difference.

For example, is it moral for a defense attorney to defend a client s/he *knows* is guilty, and to eventually get them acquitted of their charges? Is that a *good* thing that OJ for example got acquitted on a moral scale? However, it *is* ethical that a defense attorney vigorously defend and try to acquit his/her client regardless of if the attorney knows the client is guilty or not. To do otherwise and ensure that a guilty person goes to jail, if provable, is an ethics violation.

You never see politicians get censured by congress for a morality violation, it's always an ethics violation. Same for business, and even fucking religion which is in the business of morality.

There's a distinct legal difference between the two.

Edit: In fact, on a brief perusal of the 2 million or so hits on googling the difference between ethics and morals (which all seem to more or less be in agreement), the lawyer thing was summized even better for the various combinations of morals and ethics:

Ex; A defense lawyer who puts all his resources into obtaining the acquittal of a serial killer could be said to be acting immorally but is definitely acting within the Ethical imperatives of his profession.

Ex; The same defense lawyer consciously not performing at his best to defend a serial killer could be considered to be acting morally but is in violation of the Ethical conduct prescribed by his profession.

Ex; A prosecutor convicting a man who he knows to be innocent simply as a result of political and social pressure to hold someone accountable for a heinous crime by withholding evidence from the defense is acting neither Ethically nor morally.

Ex; A defense lawyer taking on a case pro bono in which he knows the person indicted to be innocent and utilizing all the legal tools at his disposal is behaving both morally and Ethically.

Now, if you strip out D&D neutrality, I could assign D&D alignments to each of the above examples. The problem is that only a psychopath is pretty much consistently immoral, and even the best person in the world occasionally has moments of weakness.

Towards that end, I kind of don't mind the above idea of "accumulating" good and evil "particles" or karma or energy or whatever through our actions, and while a character can do a whole host of things at any given time, casting "detect evil" and having it bing means there's a predominant amount of negative karma or whatever attached to you.
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Post by NineInchNall »

Preface: If all you are talking about is the non-technical or vernacular use of ethics and morality, well, that's sort of an empirical question and I'll freely give you that one, because it doesn't really matter to me. In the vernacular "per se" often means "precisely", and I don't care about that, either.

The professional ethics example is merely an example of the distinction between normative ethics and applied ethics. And you know what? Applied ethics is a subset of normative ethics. That is, it is the application of normative ethical systems to the situations that are typical of or distinctive of particular broad categories, such business ethics, medical ethics, and legal ethics.

That isn't to say that the study of medical ethics supervenes upon normative ethics while normative ethics is entirely independent of medical ethics. No, the particular ethical questions that arise within applied ethics are often used to show the success or unfeasibility of a normative system in application.
Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy wrote: The term “morality” can be used either
1.descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,
a. some other group, such as a religion, or
b. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
The descriptive use of morality covers both personal rules (what you called morals) and group rules (what you called ethics).

However, that's descriptive. We're talking about right and wrong, good and evil, so we're in the realm of normative discourse, which means we have to use the normative sense of morality.
2.normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.

...

When “morality” is used in its universal normative sense, it need not have either of the two formal features that are essential to moralities referred to by the original descriptive sense: that it be a code of conduct that is put forward by a society and that it be accepted as a guide to behavior by the members of that society. Indeed, it is possible that “morality” in the normative sense has never been put forward by any particular society, by any group at all, or even by any individual that holds that moral rules should never be violated for non-moral reasons. “Morality” is thus an ambiguous word; the two essential formal features cited above, which are present in everything that is referred to by the original descriptive sense may not be present when “morality” is used in its normative sense. The only feature that the descriptive and normative senses of “morality” have in common is that they refer to guides to behavior that involve, at least in part, avoiding and preventing harm to some others.
This sort of morality is that to which philosophers refer when they speak of ethics. All ethical systems are moral systems, be they utilitarian, Kantian, expressivist, virtue-based, or any other variation on consequentialism, deontology, or the like. They all are based on rational assent to one or more principles.

Hedonistic Utilitarianism asserts that all rational persons would assent to having their conduct governed by the maximization of pleasure across all persons. Kantian ethics asserts that all rational persons must value rationality above all else and act so as to honor rationality (however that honoring is cashed out). Even modern metaethical theories do this; for example, Korsgaard's deontological constructivism holds that all rational entities qua rational must have certain opinions, and these constitutive opinions include a modified version of the Kantian Categorical Imperative.

Morality (in the normative sense) just is ethics.

But why can we have the case where legal ethics requires an action that one might consider immoral? It's actually really straightforward. It's called a moral dilemma, something which features rather often in discussion of ethical philosophy.
Ethicists have called situations like these moral dilemmas. The crucial features of a moral dilemma are these: the agent is required to do each of two (or more) actions; the agent can do each of the actions; but the agent cannot do both (or all) of the actions. The agent thus seems condemned to moral failure; no matter what she does, she will do something wrong (or fail to do something that she ought to do).
This sort of thing can arise within an ethical system, such as how Kantian morality admits of situations where we must choose between respecting autonomy and following a universal law. However, much more commonly we run into dilemmas derived from the interaction of multiple moralities. That is the category to which the legal ethics example belongs:
Another issue raised by the topic of moral dilemmas is the relationship among various parts of morality. Consider this distinction. General obligations are moral requirements that individuals have simply because they are moral agents. That agents are required not to kill, not to steal, and not to assault are examples of general obligations. Agency alone makes these precepts applicable to individuals. By contrast, role-related obligations are moral requirements that agents have in virtue of their role, occupation, or position in society. That lifeguards are required to save swimmers in distress is a role-related obligation. Another example, mentioned earlier, is the obligation of a defense attorney to hold in confidence the disclosures made by a client. These categories need not be exclusive. It is likely that anyone who is in a position to do so ought to save a drowning person. And if a person has particularly sensitive information about another, she should probably not reveal it to third parties regardless of how the information was obtained. But lifeguards have obligations to help swimmers in distress when most others do not because of their abilities and contractual commitments. And lawyers have special obligations of confidentiality to their clients because of implicit promises and the need to maintain trust.
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Post by Koumei »

NineInchNall wrote:Preface: If all you are talking about is the non-technical or vernacular use of ethics and morality, well, that's sort of an empirical question and I'll freely give you that one, because it doesn't really matter to me. In the vernacular "per se" often means "precisely", and I don't care about that, either.
Your sig says otherwise. And it's much the same as how "literally" means "figuratively" in common usage - "I was literally waiting for ever in that line". At the end of the day, a whole lot of people confuse the meanings of ethics and morality.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

One thing I'll give you on Environs - it explains why cannibalism can be bad... At least, if you're eating evil humanoids. Though if you can get Environs by eating bad people, eating the bodies of saints would be a good act... I prefer a clear delineation on whether cannibalism is wrong.
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Post by Chamomile »

How about: Upon death, the Alignons of a sentient creature rapidly deteriorate into Evilons, regardless of what they were before. Eating a sentient creature causes you to absorb these Evilons even if they were previously full of Goodons. This also explains why undead are Evil.
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Post by Chamomile »

Edit: Double.
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Post by talozin »

Chamomile wrote:How about: Upon death, the Alignons of a sentient creature rapidly deteriorate into Evilons, regardless of what they were before. Eating a sentient creature causes you to absorb these Evilons even if they were previously full of Goodons. This also explains why undead are Evil.
I suspect that having the body of a recently deceased saint be riddled with Evilons is going to run counter to most people's expectations. Also, you may have meant something other than 'sentient', unless you wanted to suggest that anyone who eats meat is Evil.
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Post by Prak »

You could just say that all alignons digest into evilons. Animals aren't evil and don't make you evil to eat them because they don't have alignons at all.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Missionaries being eaten by cannibals was a meme in Mark Twain's day. Now, the body parts of saints can be use as holy relics.

But then you have transmorgification like eating the flesh of Jesus...
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Post by Prak »

I've always been of the opinion that cannibalism should be neutral. It doesn't matter what the meat is, it matters how you obtain it.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by talozin »

You could also do something like: forcible combination of Alignons always decays both of them into Evilons. So whether you attempt to eat someone's heart or steal his soul, that's Evil. If you're okay with it not being Evil to eat the flesh of someone who is voluntarily giving himself up to save the lives of everyone else starving in the Andes, then that could work.

But really I wonder whether it might not be better to not get too hung up on the details. If you kill someone so you can eat him, that's already murder. Is eating someone who dies of natural causes Evil, or is it just gruesome? Before answering, you should probably consider whether you're absolutely certain that you can distinguish prepared human flesh from any other kind of meat.
TheFlatline wrote:This is like arguing that blowjobs have to be terrible, pain-inflicting endeavors so that when you get a chick who *doesn't* draw blood everyone can high-five and feel good about it.
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Post by Prak »

Image
"It's venison."
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Chamomile wrote:How about: Upon death, the Alignons of a sentient creature rapidly deteriorate into Evilons, regardless of what they were before. Eating a sentient creature causes you to absorb these Evilons even if they were previously full of Goodons. This also explains why undead are Evil.
That would make a good movie concept.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Is eating dragon meat unethical
Is wearing dragon skin unethical
Is banging a dragon unethical
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Post by rasmuswagner »

talozin wrote: But really I wonder whether it might not be better to not get too hung up on the details. If you kill someone so you can eat him, that's already murder. Is eating someone who dies of natural causes Evil, or is it just gruesome? Before answering, you should probably consider whether you're absolutely certain that you can distinguish prepared human flesh from any other kind of meat.
Which is something that no edition of D&D has ever done. It's team-colored jerseys and cliches all the way down.
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

OgreBattle wrote:Is banging a dragon unethical
This, at least, I can cite precedent for.
Image
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Post by Voss »

Prak_Anima wrote:Image
"It's venison."
Looks nothing like venison, which is very much a red meat.
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Post by codeGlaze »

According to an article based on a review with a tribe of cannibals, humans taste like pork.

If memory serves I actually read that in National Geographic.

Or the internet...

...meh.
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Post by ubernoob »

codeGlaze wrote:According to an article based on a review with a tribe of cannibals, humans taste like pork.

If memory serves I actually read that in National Geographic.

Or the internet...

...meh.
There was one Japanese dude that ate a french woman while he was studying in france. He is something of a celebrity in japan. Maybe him?
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Post by codeGlaze »

ubernoob wrote:There was one Japanese dude that ate a french woman while he was studying in france. He is something of a celebrity in japan. Maybe him?
Nah, I've read about him too, it wasn't him.

It was an African tribe I think.
Doing a quick search shows that, apparently, NatGeo has a thing for writing about cannibalism. There's a bunch of stuff out there.

Apparently a group of cannibals dubbed human meat as "long pig". xD
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Post by hyzmarca »

Long pig is an old joke.

Anyway, no one knows what D&D Alignment actually means because D&D was made by a large group of people over a period of decades who didn't always communicate very well and often had vastly different ideas of what they were shooting for. So of course it's borked.

Depending on the writer, you can have anything from Evil being absolutely horrible and Good being absolutely just to a more shades of grey approach where Good can do horrible things and make terrible mistakes and Evil can be incredibly heroic, in both Greek and Modern senses.


Oh, and Baldur's Gate Alignment is horrible for reasons unrelated to that letter. I mean, I take in an exiled Drow who everyone else wants to kill on sight and I have to be caught committing horrible crimes to keep her in my party for some reason. Because apparently engaging in the wanton slaughter of anyone who crosses me, including sadistically drowning hundreds of helpless people while, while maintaining good PR is too nice.

When you have to slap a Helm of Opposite Alignment on someone whom you've always treated well and who literally has no one else to turn to in your party then your Alignment system is borked.
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Post by Prak »

Voss wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:[image]
"It's venison."
Looks nothing like venison, which is very much a red meat.
It is, however, an image from the show Hannibal, where in Lector apparently frequently tells his dinner guests they're eating venison. Sorry, tumblr failed me yesterday.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by OgreBattle »

hyzmarca wrote: Oh, and Baldur's Gate Alignment is horrible for reasons unrelated to that letter. I mean, I take in an exiled Drow who everyone else wants to kill on sight and I have to be caught committing horrible crimes to keep her in my party for some reason. Because apparently engaging in the wanton slaughter of anyone who crosses me, including sadistically drowning hundreds of helpless people while, while maintaining good PR is too nice.

When you have to slap a Helm of Opposite Alignment on someone whom you've always treated well and who literally has no one else to turn to in your party then your Alignment system is borked.
What's worse: killing, mind controlling, or surprise sexing an evil person?
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