The Gaming Den

On a tangent, I decided to look at how heavy weapons fared against a Western Dragon. Then against a Roadmaster, and then a max-body, max augmented (bone lacing, R6 dermal plating, suprathyroid gland) troll in heavy milspec armor.

Target profiles:
Dragon: 18 Hardened Armor /18 Body / 17 P Boxes
Roadmaster: 18 Vehicle Armor /18 Body / 21 P Boxes
Troll: 32 Armor / 14 Body / 12 P Boxes

vs.

Heavy Machinegun (RPK HMG, 12P, -4 AP)

Dragon: 12P vs 14 HA; no sell.
Roadmaster: 12P vs 14 VA; no sell.
Troll: 12P vs 42 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 0 damage.

Heavy Machinegun w/ APDS (RPK HMG, 12P, -8 AP)

Dragon: 12P vs 28 soak + 5 autohits; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 0 damage
Roadmaster: 12P vs 28 VA; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 3 damage
Troll: 12P vs 34 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 1 damage.

Anti Materiel Rifle (Barret Model 122, 14P, -4 AP)

Dragon: 14P vs 14 HA; no sell.
Roadmaster: 14P vs 14 VA; no sell.
Troll: 14P vs 42 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 3/12 damage.

Anti Materiel Rifle w/ APDS (Barret Model 122, 14P, -8 AP)

Dragon: 14P vs 28 soak + 5 autohits; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 0 damage
Roadmaster: 14P vs 28 VA; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 5 damage
Troll: 14P vs 34 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 3 damage.

Lazer (Ares Heavy MP Laser, 10P, -10 AP)

Dragon: 10P vs 26 soak + 4 autohits; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 0 damage
Roadmaster: 10P vs 26 VA; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 2 damage
Troll: 10P vs 32 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 0 damage.

Flechette Grenades (18P (f), +5 AP)

Dragon: 18P vs 23 HA; no sell.
Roadmaster: 18P vs 23 VA; no sell.
Troll: 18P vs 51 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 1 damage.

HE Grenades (16P, -2 AP)

Dragon: 16P vs 16 HA; no sell.
Roadmaster: 16P vs 16 VA; no sell.
Troll: 16P vs 44 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 2 damage.

Light Railgun (Ares Thunderstruck, 15P, -8 AP)

Dragon: 15P vs 28 soak + 5 autohits; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 1 damage
Roadmaster: 15P vs 28 VA; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 6 damage
Troll: 15P vs 34 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 4 damage.

Assault Cannon (Panther XXL, 17P, -4 AP)

Dragon: 17P vs 32 soak + 7 autohits; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 0 damage
Roadmaster: 17P vs 28 VA; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 8 damage
Troll: 17P vs 38 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 5 damage.

Flechette Rockets (23P (f), +5 AP)

Dragon: 23P vs 23 HA, no sell.
Roadmaster: 23P vs 23 VA; no sell
Troll: 23P vs 47 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 8 damage.

HE Rockets (21P, -2 AP)

Dragon: 21P vs 34 soak + 8 autohits: (assuming 1/3 hits), 2 damage.
Roadmaster: 21P vs 34 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 10 damage
Troll: 21P vs 40 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 8 damage.

AV Rockets (24P, -4/-10 AP)

Dragon: 24P vs 32 soak + 7 autohits: (assuming 1/3 hits), 7 damage.
Roadmaster: 24P vs 26 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 16 damage
Troll: 24P vs 38 soak; on average (assuming 1/3 hits), 11 damage.

Now, if you rule that dragons count as vehicles for AV ammo, then the profile becomes:

Dragon: 24P vs 26 soak + 4 autohits: (assuming 1/3 hits), 12 damage.

Summary: Dragons need high AP to kill. Vehicles are fragile. Trolls gonna troll.

What version of Milspec armor are you looking at for the Troll? I ask because the one from Run & Gun (which as far as I know, is the only one actually called "Milspec") is treated as having the Hardened Armor critter power. It gives you 20 from the armor and 3 from the helmet. So you'd have 23 hardened armor / 10 regular armor / 14 body (I'm just assuming you body calculations are correct).

So the troll would ignore everything except the AV Rockets. There's a possibility that the Light Railgun and HE Rockets would be interesting as well, but I honestly can't tell because the rules for Hardened Armor neglect to tell us what to do when the modified armor value is equal to the DV. Greater than and less than are clearly spelled out, but equal to is a great and wondrous mystery. On top of that, I'm not entirely sure how hardened armor and regular armor interact. I'm assuming that the regular armor is just soak dice, that it doesn't spontaneously become hardened, and that the hardened stuff is reduced by AP first...but again...nowhere in the core book does it actually tell us this.

Let me hasten to add that the fact that the Milspec Armor is treated as having the critter power is spelled out ONLY in a small note at the bottom of a table on page 66, where it is sandwiched in between a couple other obscure notes. It is entirely reasonable to miss that. The layout of these books is insane. People shouldn't have to do keyword searches for entire PDF's just to be reasonably certain that they haven't missed an exception to a caveat to an addendum that someone buried in a random footnote to a table.

For the troll, I was using:

Milspec armor +23
Body +14 (+3 Bone Lacing and +1 Suprathyroid already factored in)
Dermal Plating +6
Bone Lacing +3

If the milspec stuff is Hardened then nothing except the AV rockets will even begin to scratch him, since even with the -2 from HE rockets you're still at 21 HA, and HA rockets only have 21P.

Vs. AV rockets we're looking at 24P vs 19 HA (9 autohits) + 23 other soak. Or 15P vs 43/3 hits of mitigation, or 1 damage.

Pretty nasty.

On the offense side, remember that you add hits to damage, so all weapons are going to hurt more than you've let on. Also explosives do at least double damage for rebounding off the floor. Our milspec troll is resisting a minimum of 36p from a regular hand grenade and is downed in one shot.

-Username17

Actually, on the topic of defence, how does a jumped-in rigger defend, anyway?

against what?
somebody coming into his van and murderizing him mano a mano?
not at all probably, due to being not at home with the brain stuffs.
and hell, even if he were at home, he is a rigger for crying out loud.
they are not known for being the hardiest of people.
because if they were, they'd troll up and roll out on their own.
and not use toys to do their job.

Also: rating 6 dermal armor? when did that get implemented?
In SR3, dermal tech always only went up to level 3.
And then there was much bitching about wether or not a trolls natural dermal armor stacked with that or got removed in the process of him getting the artificial stuff by virtue of it meaning that most of the skin gets basically cut out and replaced with new skin that had the dermatech built into it . .

Also, did you factor in the fact that damage that is smaller than armor is treated as stun and thus will still knock most people right the fuck out even if they are not bleeding from it?

Silent Wayfarer wrote:Actually, on the topic of defence, how does a jumped-in rigger defend, anyway?

Page 205 of SR5, attacks against vehicles: drivers use reaction+intuition and drones use pilot + handling (the autosoft, not the vehicle attribute, confusing). This isn't a vehicle test or a vehicle skill test (different things, apparently), so the control rig doesn't lend any bonus dice for it though it is a matrix test if you're full VR, so hot sim would.

Update time!

So the day of the game draws nearer and nearer- we should start next week if everything goes off smoothly. He's mentioned that we'll have more money than karma at the start, but the implication is "more money and karma" after the base character creation for us to spend, just that we'll get more free cash than karma.

Now, knowing my buddy, he probably thinks he's giving us a crap ton compared to what actually is a minimal amount, but then he's also said that the money might be more than "Prime Runners" get, which I assume is an actual thing in the rulebook, not possessing a copy myself for the moment.

So, anything to pick up for a rigger when given more money for toys than the 400 grand at character creation? What unholiness can suddenly be unleashed with a higher amount of cash to spend?

Assuming Availability caps aren't lifted, get as many Roto Drones + Weapon Mount + AK-98/Ares Alphas + grenades as your RCC can support. Then run them out of your owm personal glider.

Prime runners is in fact a thing in 5e. They are npcs that are made to a complicated formula based on the pcs. None of that shit really matters because a street kid with a frag grenade or gas bomb will fucking end you, the chargen rules are so wonky that they don't really say anything about dicepool sizes or even total karma value, and the prime runners rules just straight up tell the GM to cheat. But they do exist.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:None of that shit really matters because a street kid with a frag grenade or gas bomb will fucking end you

As famously terrabad of a rule that is, wouldn't any DM just spot-fix/houserule it not to do any bouncing-waves damage, and just do regular type? Or is the fact how terrabad SR DM's are, they'd keep it in, or probably just nerf it the moment PC's use it?

Also, I know SR4 also had this rule, just of course its calculations were less insane, more incremental? If I'm recalling right. I also remember Prime Runners in SR 4 being janked too, how they could bypass several PC creation restrictions, and NPC's in general are just made from arbritrarium (it seemed).

No, i think chunky salsa has been a straight up copy pasta from SR3 at least, maybe even earlier than that . .

aryxbex wrote:Also, I know SR4 also had this rule, just of course its calculations were less insane, more incremental? If I'm recalling right. I also remember Prime Runners in SR 4 being janked too, how they could bypass several PC creation restrictions, and NPC's in general are just made from arbritrarium (it seemed).

Prime Runners "exist" in SR4, but they are a lot simpler. They are just characters who have an amount of starting build points that is either more than or less than the PCs, depending on whether they are supposed to be superior or inferior. Superior ones can start with skills and equipment higher than starting characters because they aren't supposed to be starting characters. And if they survive, they get karma advancements just like PCs do for when they show up again. They don't do any of the crazy bullshit where they automagically can't be killed until their designated death scene like in SR5.

Stahlseele wrote:No, i think chunky salsa has been a straight up copy pasta from SR3 at least, maybe even earlier than that . .

And you're wrong. First of all, the 5e damage codes are much higher, which means that explosive radiuses are much higher and thus the amount of damage being added and the number of times things can rebound off walls is much larger. But even beyond the fact that a simple cut-n-paste of the SR4 rules would be totally fucked with SR5's damage codes, there's also the matter of floors. See, in SR4 you explicitly don't count the ceiling or floor when measuring chunky salsa effects. But in SR5 you very explicitly do count the floor.

Since almost everyone is standing on the ground, the fact that SR5 chunky salsa checks the ground means that all explosives in SR5 do double damage - even in the middle of an empty parking lot.

-Username17

One interesting little factoid, since I'm probably one of the few people around who has a bunch of ties to CGL "Agents" (for those who don't know, those are folks who run semi-official Shadowrun games in exchange for free product)...

...even among folks who are straight-up compensated for running "official" SR5 games, the grenade rules are ground zero (pun intended) for house rules and mind caulk. Even the GMs who have aversions to house rules at all tend to make an exception for grenades in SR5, because TPKs are so prevalent.

Case in point: I actually spoke to one GM a little while back, after GenCon (I think it was GenCon, but I get the Midwest cons mixed up). Anyways. He got to meet Jason Hardy, and he was totally stoked about it, which...you know...I thought was a bit odd, but whatever. But the only negative thing he kept returning to was his utter disbelief that he stood in line to talk to Jason about the SR5 grenade issues, and he just didn't grasp the problem. This is a guy who goes out of his way to be extra-charitable to SR5 and CGL...benefit of the doubt like you wouldn't believe...and at the game after Gen Con he stood up at our table and announced, "So...we're gonna introduce our second house rule ever, and it's because grenades are f***ed."