Lago's Kickass D&D-Book Marketing Strategy!

[TheFlatline]

So obviously, you need a Lich. Vecna and Szass Tam are played out, you need a new guy. Also he (or she, it doesn't really matter) needs a schtick as identifiable as Vecna's Hand and Eye deal. But of course, it can't be exactly the same deal. I suggest having a Lich who runs around in a golden mask who gets called "The Worm Queen" because underneath the mask of beauty there are a bunch of crawling bugs.

There you have it. The Worm Queen's mask (or perhaps mask & mirror). She was a beautiful woman, potent in sorcery, and used every ounce of her ability to retain her beauty. Started doing some real fucked up shit, like killing the young chambermaids that worked for her and bathed in their blood, but that might not have been enough. In desperation, she tried to become a lich, and she didn't read the fine print. Now she's the worm queen. Ironically, like the Phantom of the Opera, the mask bumps your charisma up to 18 (or whatever), and allows you to charm person x times a day, with the side effect that the charm is actually love, and the charmed person will do anything to actually see *under* the mask and gaze upon their beloved. Mix her up to be part Phantom of the Opera, part Helen of Troy.

Furthermore, you need a Vampire. Like Strahd or some other semi-tragic Dracula clone, or a hot chick succubus type. I don't even care. Either way, their big deal super power is mind control and they are built on a Bard chassis.

I've always wanted a succubus taken from In Nomine. A master of the bargain, desirable, easily invoked, she's almost like a Wish (spell) come true, but there's always a price for her favors.

But it's not all undead and spellcasters. Just like Batman fights Killer Croc, so too must there be a named character Troglodyte swordsman. The point is that he's a Troglodyte, but he has a magical steel falchion and he will fuck you up. He has a plan to lead the stone age Troglodytes into a new era of technology and cruelty where they crush all the Dwarves and Kobolds and force them to make steel for them. His evil sword approves this message.

How about "paladins" in a different light? Crazed warrior fanatics who take their god's purpose to frightening extremes. A paladin of the god of Strength, for example, might kill off all the men in an entire village, keep it isolated for a year, and return to mate with the most successful female, who has demonstrated the most strength. A group of paladins who are not the shining path of their god (good or evil), but are the darkness that will sweep away all *other* paths.

Similarly, you need a straight mastermind. And what better mastermind than a Kobold Psion? He has schemes and skims off of various criminals and avoids combat. Notes include him teleporting out on the second round of most combats. I can easily imagine him becoming the most hated villain in the entire edition of D&D.

Twin Astral Construct 9 on round one. Teleport on round two.

Yeah, I could learn to hate that fucker.

[Blasted]

I'll disagree here to an extent. No artwork should break the themes of the game. If you need armor, then don't draw Conan unless he has armor on.

There are three alternatives which fix that:
1. Have a barbarian class in the base rulebook.
2. Have plate armor which makes the character look good, rather than either historic or fantasy gothic. I'm thinking about the same amount of plate armour for the men that the women have. It may end up as a rather large belt
3. Instead of a conan style topless wonder, put in a martial arts style topless wonder and call it a monk.
Really 3 is a varient of 1, but 3 choices sounds better.

Oh screw that. State that unconscious, bound, or otherwise utterly helpless characters have an effective armor class of zero, and instead of calling the attack a coup de grace you call it a THAC0 attack, and put a large winking smiley face in the margin to know that you're committing heresy.

I could deal with that.

How about "paladins" in a different light? Crazed warrior fanatics who take their god's purpose to frightening extremes. A paladin of the god of Strength, for example, might kill off all the men in an entire village, keep it isolated for a year, and return to mate with the most successful female, who has demonstrated the most strength. A group of paladins who are not the shining path of their god (good or evil), but are the darkness that will sweep away all *other* paths.

The original HOTT book had a nice line about 'good' races having massive prejudice and attacking each other over mutual distrust. I view these (and all other) paladins in the same way. Their way or the highway. I'm not entirely sure that this works well with the way D&D handles deities, but it works for me.

[Username17]

With Morale handled in a proper way, bards actually stand to be *important* to the group. A D&D first!

I wouldn't say that. The Bard has broadly speaking has been a valuabe contributor in most editions. He just gets made fun of because he sucked in 3rd edition, and 3rd edition was the big one.

But in AD&D, the Bard was a prestige class you could take as a Fighter/Thief that gave you the combat profile of a Druid and Wizard casting. Only available at high level, but stupidly powerful. In 2nd edition AD&D, the Bard got access to a limited list of spells in exchange for going up levels faster. Sure, he never got Polymorph Any Object, but his Fireballs did more damage. The Bard seriously was fucking awesome for twenty straight years.

Anyway, THAC0 is not something to hearken back to. It is a shibboleth to divide people who want mass appeal and those who do not. "We don't have THAC0" is a selling point, not the other way around. Here's stuff you can grab grognards with that is actually good:

• Level Titles Seriously. Build it right into the game, this is the point your Monk can drop in unannounced on the Emperor, that is the point your Paladin can tell the Bishop to go get tea. It's not just a throwback to the old Greyhawk advancement tables, it's a genuine thing that allows us to get around the level treadmill without violating game math.
  
  Class Kits 3e flirted with this a little bit, but people want to personalize their character a little bit more. And by a little bit more, I mean that however much personalization is available, they want a bit more. A few nominally zero sum changes to a class as part of a "kit" not only sells some books in a way that is relatively spare on word count - it also is a nice throw back to the 2nd Edition AD&D Complete series in a way that doesn't have to break the game.
  
  Smaller Weapon Weights Grognards fucking hate weapon inaccuracies. A two handed sword weighs like 6 pounds. Not 25. People are willing to argue until they are blue about whether Katanas or Macuahuitls get enough awesome sauce on them, but fucking nobody with a neck beard is confused about the weights of swords. While you're at it: the Long Sword is fucking two handed. Because it is long.
  
  Artifacts in Treasure Tables Again, I am dead serious. People like to find the Wand of Orcus, and they like to feel that they have earned it. Therefore: it fucking has to be in the treasure tables. Especially for low level play (even if it is incredibly unlikely as a find), because that's when getting The One Ring is going to be campaign defining.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Another villain, Ourien the Golden Mummy, who is supposed to be a not-so-subtle jab at the mercantilism of the setting and D&D's gold-fetishism.

9th-level Mummy Alchemist

Ourien Hahn was once a respected alchemist for his Lord's court, so much so that he was charged with the impossible task of being able to turn lead into gold. He succeeded at this task--perhaps too well, since he developed a formula that was able to create gold out of nothingness. Instead of bringing in an age of prosperity and riches, Ourien ended up creating so much gold that it ruined the kingdom in two ways; the economic base crashed soonafter due to hyperinflation. Even worse, weeks after anyone touched said gold people started getting violently ill experimenting symptoms such as bleeding internally, sterility, hair loss, and cancers. In order to protect their own economies and the health of their own citizens, other countries completely cut off trade with Ourien's country, further dooming it. After nearly four months of this, the realm was on the verge of collapse. In desperate need of a scapegoat, the Lord declared Ourien a traitor and sentenced him to two month's worth of torture via his own implements and finally ending his misery by dipping the doomed alchemist slowly into a pool of molten gold until entombed. Them all of his gold was taken to the deepest part of the kingdom's wastelands and buried. The kingdom went back to their 'old' supply, recovering slowly and painfully over a course of dozens of years.

One thousand years later, a hobgoblin surveying team found the piles and piles of gold buried deep within the desert and underwent great pains to extract it. While becoming almost unimaginably rich at first, the miners invariably succumbed to the same sickness that befell the nameless Lord's kingdom ages ago. People became extremely scared of this gold, claiming that it had the curse of Ourien, and the fortune of the hobgoblins disappeared as quickly as it came. Not that they had long to contemplate their miserable fates. The hobgoblins decided to dig deeper in hopes of finding gold that wasn't tainted, soon coming upon Ourien's tomb which they greedily tore open. This freed the alchemist, mummified in a trap of gold, who rewarded the excavators by killing the most of them and turning the rest into his golden minions. Ourien possesses a seething hatred of the kingdom, wanting revenge for his treatment against his Lord and what became of the realm. Unfortunately for him, the descendants number in the thousands and his country is a completely unrecognizable place from when he lived in it. Fortunately for him, his gold-related powers, his ability to create a large amount of the stuff on the fly, and his new undead state allows him to plot revenge that may encompass centuries.

Ourien is a tall, ropey golden-bronzed skinned human in his mid-thirties. While he has the ability to create a variety of outfits using his powers, he favors going about shirtless but wearing flowing pants to hide the grievous burns on his legs from where he was partially submerged in molten gold as a mortal. His physical appearance is entirely unremarkable, save for the fact that his eyes are balls of gold and his tongue and teeth are also made of gold. This does not impede his speech in the least. Despite being undead, he looks, feels, and smells normal except for the above oddities. Possessed of the supernatural strength of the undead, his ponderous all-gold outfits not impeding him in the least.

Ourien has the power to alter the shape of any existing gold object however he pleases, including his own, and can create up to 10 cubic meters of gold out of nothing in a day. Ourien's signature abilities are his wide variety of shape-changing gold weapons and armors, trapping people in golden structures like ropes and gold pits, firing a gold beam of energy from his palm, and his ability to create Golden Minions. Such minions are created when, after he subdues them, they have their eyes, tongue, throat, and spinal column carefully injected with and replaced with gold. Unfortunately, Ourien must constantly create new minions since they begin to deteriorate in physical ability after a month due to his 'curse' and outright die completely after two.

A note on Ourien's gold: his gold when first created appears to be entirely normal, a fact which he frequently takes advantage of. Since it is instantaneous, most tests will not show that it's anything other than the real deal much like a stupidly difficult DC will reveal a Wall of Iron as a magical creation. However, prolonged exposure to the gold has ill effects described in the first paragraph--this is because Ourien's method of creating gold is extremely radioactive and will cause radiation poison very quickly, hence the 'curse'. While disease-removal methods can heal the sickness caused by his gold, the taint is an intrinsic property of it and can't be removed short of almost alchemist process. Even if one manages to protect themselves from the sickness, the gold eventually decays into a hot, molten blob of base metals.

[RobbyPants]

I have to agree that having THAC0 seems to be seen more of as a problem than as a benefit.

Even if it were a good idea to implement THAC0, it would literally have to be the number you need to hit AC 0 for it to be a meaningful name acronym. So if the system doesn't have an AC 0 or lookup numbers, then it's really a meaningless term.

Flatline came up with an interesting implementation of the term, but I don't see it sticking. Having played both 2E and 3E, I'd see it as a cheap attempt to bring back old terminology and wouldn't embrace it.

TL;DR: Let it die!

[Kaelik]

TL;DR: Let it die! Kill it With Fire!

Fixed

[Crissa]

I'll disagree here to an extent. No artwork should break the themes of the game. If you need armor, then don't draw Conan unless he has armor on.

I believe Lago would support there being rules for down-armored fighters.

If you don't have rules for that, you don't get scantily clad females, either.

-Crissa

[Blasted]

And dagnabbit! you can't have an RPG without scantily clad females! that's crazy talk!

[Username17]

I'll disagree here to an extent. No artwork should break the themes of the game. If you need armor, then don't draw Conan unless he has armor on.

I believe Lago would support there being rules for down-armored fighters.

If you don't have rules for that, you don't get scantily clad females, either.

-Crissa

That isn't true. You need to have unarmored archetypes to have scantily clad men and women. But those archetypes don't necessarily have to be fighters. They could be spellcasters or mathematicians or motivational speakers or mimes.

-Username17

[Blasted]

That isn't true. You need to have unarmored archetypes to have scantily clad men and women. But those archetypes don't necessarily have to be fighters. They could be spellcasters or mathematicians or motivational speakers or mimes.

-Username17

Yes, but no one wants to see Gandalf with his shirt off.
While you could say that we would have only *attractive* spellcasters/mathematicians/speakers, d&d is all about pandering to people's preconceptions.

You need something with a big sword on the cover. Until Orlando Bloom or Viggo Mortensen puts down the weapon and picks up a calculator, wizards will remain in pointy hats and sport long white beards.

I mentioned above the two archetypes which I think would fit, but I'm sure you could cut down on the gothic armor, or make it more figure hugging.

[Username17]

Meh. People would pay good money to see Radcliffe and Watson without their shirts. But basically, I think I have to remind you what sorceresses look like.

There's certainly demand for unarmored warriors with glistening abdomens, but there isn't a need for it. You could as easily get your cleavage marked off from witches as from warriors in chain mail bikinis.

-Username17

[Blasted]

Sorry, I was fixated on the guys. The sorceress does make some interesting points. hur hur.

Sure, there's no need, but filling demands makes money.
I'm interested in creating front cover art which portrays an RPG ideal, while also appealing to people's baser instincts.

And there's certainly a need for unarmored warriors with glistening abdomens in my house. Excuse me, I need to show the wife a google image search.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Going back with Franks idea to roll artifacts on treasure tables, I agree that random rolls for treasure should back, with a caveat.

Not all treasure gets rolled. The wealth system uses a combination of items by level and just random rolling.

While I/WBL sucks the joy out of finding random treasure, not being able to grab a flying carpet or a backup ghost-touch weapon is really, really annoying. Players should be able to grab minor/outdated things that they want but for things like up-to-date swords and armor those should be rolled. And since most of your hurty equipment is rolled you don't have to design the RNG around the assumption of players getting the latest sword technology. This prevents the 'crack addict' effect of magical items, where you don't feel joy in having them but you do feel the pain of not having them. But if an 8th-level warlock wants to grab a cloak of the bat and a +1 longshot crossbow he should be able to do it without too much trouble. The +4 rod of reaving needs to be rolled.

[Username17]

Basically, I never want to hear about having a level appropriate neck slot item again. Ever. In any context.

I'm fine with getting masterwork armor that is +1 and magic armor that is +2, and even eventually getting to the point where I can purchase either. But the +4 and +6 items? Those should go ahead and stay randomly generated - and by extension stay game changing that you have one.

Wondrous Items should basically be non-numerical and thus stay "wondrous." I don't even want to upgrade my strength belt to a bigger strength belt - especially as the law of RPG equipment would mean that some other character in the party would get a hand-me-down strength belt. Fuck that.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

So does this mean that the game should be balanced on the assumption that people never randomly roll +bonus treasure? I'm fine with that in theory, but that does mean that you need to keep the top ends of bonuses low.

Of course anything higher than a +5 bonus tends to veer into the realm of unintentional parody anyway.

The unfortunate side effect of doing that is that it marries people to a good roll for an unnatural amount of time. I think that someone holding on to the same weapon for ten levels, even if it's a Hackmaster +12 or a Sword of Kas, is actually kind of dull. So you can either take the weapon out of their hands, which I find rather heavy-handed and immersion-breaking. You can put an expiration date on the weapon, like 4E tried to do with intelligent items. Or you can try to lure them out of it towards better items. The third one seems like the best solution but the problem with it is that you end up on the bonus treadmill anyway; if someone got a +6 Deathdrooler at level 3 you pretty much can't offer any better weapons than that.

[Blasted]

I don't even want to upgrade my strength belt to a bigger strength belt - especially as the law of RPG equipment would mean that some other character in the party would get a hand-me-down strength belt. Fuck that.

Not sure I understand this. surely part of having random roles includes the option of getting a slightly better strength belt?
Or is the strength belt a wonderous item?

[Lago PARANOIA]

You really don't want to upgrade headbands of intellect or vests or protection or any of that crap. The biggest reason is that it screws the RNG if there is a possibility of not getting it. A player who got lucky on some treasure rolls at level 4 should not be practically invincible for the rest of the game.

But you don't want to make the game under the assumption that you will get those things either. Aside from the fact that the RNG isn't going to favor all groups, if you do make these things happen you end up with the 4E effect where magical items don't make you feel special. They're just things you need to keep up.

The other, equally important reason why you want to keep pluses strictly on magical armor and weapons is because magical item pluses are BORING. A belt that gives you tactile telekinesis (I didn't invent the term, DC did) over inanimate objects in a 10 foot radius is awesome. A belt that gives you a +8 strength bonus, though potentially functionally identical, is boring. A pair of boots that function as an Immovable Rod are awesome. A pair of boots that give you a +20 bonus on trip and bull rush checks are boring. If I had my druthers that shit would be gone from the game entirely, but magical item pluses are probably the biggest sacred cow of the D&D magical item system and people WILL notice if they can't get their +2 Mithril Breastplate or +4 Shortbow of Grace. So keep it restricted to as few potential items as possible.

[Fuchs]

The unfortunate side effect of doing that is that it marries people to a good roll for an unnatural amount of time. I think that someone holding on to the same weapon for ten levels, even if it's a Hackmaster +12 or a Sword of Kas, is actually kind of dull. So you can either take the weapon out of their hands, which I find rather heavy-handed and immersion-breaking. You can put an expiration date on the weapon, like 4E tried to do with intelligent items. Or you can try to lure them out of it towards better items. The third one seems like the best solution but the problem with it is that you end up on the bonus treadmill anyway; if someone got a +6 Deathdrooler at level 3 you pretty much can't offer any better weapons than that.

I personally hate it when I am forced to change weapons or armor just because the new item is better, and I "need" to "keep up".

[Blasted]

So your magical items should change how often? 3 Levels? 6 Levels? more? less? I'm assuming you will find better items are higher levels and eventually your slight levitation leather armor will be replaced.

Or should magical items 'level up' with their owners?

[Fuchs]

So your magical items should change how often? 3 Levels? 6 Levels? more? less? I'm assuming you will find better items are higher levels and eventually your slight levitation leather armor will be replaced.

Or should magical items 'level up' with their owners?

The option to "level up" should be there, so people do not have to trade in their family sword for the flaming sparkling glaive. But others like to go from one item to another, and in an "easy comes, easy goes" campaign you want to be able to replace lost gear easily, so some comrpomise would be best.

With less emphasis on plusses the need to upgrade key gear (signature gear in some places) is lessened though.

[Username17]

The question of how many levels you should gain between getting a fancy sword is a question which has no answer because it misses the point entirely. The number of levels you have in your game, and the number of adventures you go on between them is wholly arbitrary. You could have a hundred levels and level twice a session or more. Or you could have five levels and level only around major campaign milestones. Neither is inherently right or wrong.

The point I think is that people want advancement somewhat like a plot directed animated adventure cartoon show. Like Sailor Moon or Avatar. And for those shows, you have a couple of upgrades a season, and your season has about 16 adventures in it (with some filler and some two parters thrown in). Upgrading a weapon more than once cheapens the weapon upgrade you got, which is why the Avatar gets one new Staff. That's good storytelling. In 4e D&D you are seriously supposed to get the "new staff music" six times, which is simply ridiculous.

-Username17

[Mask_De_H]

So, if the vertical advancement new item music is only supposed to ding once or twice, does this mean we work with a very tight RNG, or do we internalize the pluses within the characters? If they get more options, do we even need to boost their Attributes? For example, the Sailor Scouts never get physically tougher or faster, they just get better tricks.

In other news, I'd like to start brainstorming WoF abilities for the frameworks brought up earlier.

[Psychic Robot]

So, if the vertical advancement new item music is only supposed to ding once or twice, does this mean we work with a very tight RNG,

Why not simply make it so that magic items don't affect the RNG at all? For instance, you could make a +5 sword add +5 damage and other special abilities, not +5 to hit/+5 damage.

[Red_Rob]

The Book of Gears already has any bonuses scale to your level and then gave some extra effect. Going the extra step would just have any "pluses" part of the levelling process and items just provide the special effect.

A fire sword could do FIRE type damage, allowing it to deal double damage against monsters vulnerable to fire, ignore physical damage resistance, and have a chance of inflicting the BURNING status without having a single plus to its name. Wings of Flying don't have to provide any bonus to stats to be useful.

[Crissa]

We do need a reason for a Fire character to want to have a Fire sword, though. Not sure what...

-Crissa