The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

[hyzmarca]

Then again, Thor is a physical god with a big magic hammer. Take away that hammer and he's still a physical god, but he's substantially less than he is with it.

[CapnTthePirateG]

The only reason we don't call them that is that this would scar the poor fightards who are masters of self-delusion

[Gx1080]

Lago, you have a point. That's why dependance on magic items has to go.

I propose Ki as a power source. It fits, it introduces a system with the same complexity-with-a-base of Magic (Tome's different Martial Arts styles), and it helps to to power Rituals (plot-affecting powers usable for all clases).

Also, a quite large segment of people don't want their guys to run on Magic. Well, just make them run in "not Magic" that comes from doing push-ups and training and presto!

[K]

I think most people equate Ki with Asian magic and not push-ups and training.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Then again, Thor is a physical god with a big magic hammer. Take away that hammer and he's still a physical god, but he's substantially less than he is with it.

Yes, but no one would object from a WSoD-perspective to Thor undergoing a training montage where he learns to fight without his hammer and even gets a new superpower or two. VAHs can't do that. They HAVE to rely on equipment, since they can't just do enough situps until they learn how to fly and shoot lasers out of their mouths.

[Novembermike]

Is Iron Man a martial artist that just happens to use some gadgets to enhance his crimefighting ability or is he a magical engineer that just happens to use some martial arts to enhance his crimefighting ability? The latter, obviously. There is no way you're getting around the fact that it's impossible for Tony Stark to participate in any adventure with a power level higher than 'stop some bank robbers' without his suite of doodads. If Tony Stark lost all of his martial arts abilities he'd still be able to participate on adventures, just at a slightly reduced capacity.

Stark would still be a good character without his suit, he'd just be more on the MacGuyver level than the Captain Badass level.

So I ask you, if fighters (and barbarians and rogues and whatever) are so dependent on magical bling to get them to contribute at high levels then why even call them that? It's a waste of space to have four or five classes that pretty much all play the same with only minor differences between then. You should just call the classes 'gadgeteers' who have an option of raging, picking pockets, swinging a sword slightly better than most, etc..

It's fairly easy to keep Fighters independent of magical shit. Just make it so that mundane items actually do shit. Maybe Adamantium swords can cut through magic, allowing a fighter with one to make an attack roll against magical attacks to dispel, or Wizards cannot detect anyone wearing a belt made from the hide of a certain animal. Make it so that the fighter gains power by doing fightery things rather than giving gold to wizards.

EDIT: Hell, why not take Wizards out of the economy altogether? Say that anything made by a wizard lasts at most three days. Everything else is items with "natural" powers, potions that are actually potions instead of spells cast on liquids and whatever else.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Stark would still be a good character without his suit, he'd just be more on the MacGuyver level than the Captain Badass level.

But that doesn't change the fact that when Skrulls or Red Hulk or Dr. Doom comes a-knocking he would either have to MacGuyver something up just as good as his flying force field laser suit (making the power loss pointless, since he's just reflavored) or Juggernaut just chuckles to himself and throws a building at 140 km/hr at him. Without his suit or a suitable replacement power, he's crippled. Without martial arts he's just inconvenienced.

It's fairly easy to keep Fighters independent of magical shit. Just make it so that mundane items actually do shit. Maybe Adamantium swords can cut through magic, allowing a fighter with one to make an attack roll against magical attacks to dispel, or Wizards cannot detect anyone wearing a belt made from the hide of a certain animal.

That's NOT ENOUGH.

A character whose power is 'counter things other people can do' might do well enough in the fighting minigame but can't advance the plot on their own after a certain level unless the solution is available to everyone. Countering is a lame power; all it lets you do is take a turn. Wizards don't shit themselves when an iron golem shows up or someone activates an antimagic field. They use their magic to find their ways around it.

Hell, why not take Wizards out of the economy altogether? Say that anything made by a wizard lasts at most three days. Everything else is items with "natural" powers, potions that are actually potions instead of spells cast on liquids and whatever else.

Then you end up having magic that's really lame and restrictive. You can't have flying ice castles; you can't have interdimensional necropolis metropolises; you can't have airships equipped with cannons that shoot fireballs, enlarged cones of cold, and lightning bolts; you can't have underwater castles of gold with air pockets that keep the mermen out, etc..

[Jilocasin]

I think most people equate Ki with Asian magic and not push-ups and training.

Those people are half wrong. Ki is Asian magic that you develop with push-ups and training.

[Midnight_v]

The problem is magic yeah. . .
Its the world veiw that it has no parallel so we can't compare it.
So change the world view.
Everyone can use magic. Its an effervescent force.
I like the idea that some people use magic externally call them wizards. The shoot fire balls raise the dead and fly, summon creatures out of nothing, slow down time. They use the medium of spells to get these effects they're trained to do so, and go to schools to do so

On the same token some people (many people actually) draw on that same ambient force and use it themselves, they don't start drawing on it till they get put into hardcore situations, attacked by a lion, swept away by a storm, sent off into battle vs other dudes with swords...then they can do amazing things go without rest, defy phsyics on a personal scale, become super strong, survive almost anything, move at speeds faster than people who havent been called upon to use this stuff yet.
The more danger you get the more you absorb, the more you absorb the more able you are to withstand danger.
So many people who draw on it in nature draw on a small amount and still get killed by the bear they're trying to drive off, but save they're family, the people with just the right combo of guile, wit, and situation... go on to become the dudes who slay dragons, and devils in a seemingly non magical way.

[K]

I think most people equate Ki with Asian magic and not push-ups and training.

Those people are half wrong. Ki is Asian magic that you develop with push-ups and training.

Telling people that they are wrong is not going to make think differently. People who want nonmagical fighters don't want Ki because the flavor doesn't fit.

[Gx1080]

People don't equate Ki with Asian magic.

You can thank DBZ for that. Just have to tone down the beam spam, add some fluff and there you go.

[Chamomile]

Don't call it Ki. Call it "Vital Force" or something.

[Prak]

Which isn't at all similar to apprenticing under a master spellcaster... nope, not at all...

By your logic, being trained by anyone in anything makes you a Wizard. This means everyone going to a sword-training school or joining the army is Harry Potter or Gandalf.

Batman didn't read any books to become a great fighter and most of his toys are made by his giant corporation. That's pretty much the opposite of a Wizard.

At best, he has problem solving skills that we associate with DnD Wizards.

That's not what I'm saying at all, or at least not what I'm intending to say. In D&D Arcane magic is separate from divine magic in the fact that it comes from within, or through careful study. Batman is an arcane power source character because his power comes from study (his vast array of scientific knowledges) and personal prowess honed through practice (his combat ability). Superman is technically a divine character, as his power comes from the sun, but you can say the sun just unlocks his race's personal potential, so Green Lantern is actually a much better example of a divine power source character, as a green lantern's power is literally bestowed by a higher power.

Shit, now Batman has entered the thread. There goes the neighbourhood.

This thread is Batman's whore. He show's up whenever he's feeling blue and shoves right in.

I think most people equate Ki with Asian magic and not push-ups and training.

Different training. It's a more mental form of training, meditation, self reflection, mind over matter, and learning about the magic bits floating through your body and how to amplify and use them, but it is still training.

Though I'm going to cut off any accusations of my personal stupidity by realizing it first and say "yes, damn near everything is training based." You have a few people like Juggernaut or Superman who don't really worry about learning how to fight, but yes, most people train. So maybe my application of the arcane power source is overly broad.

Don't call it Ki. Call it "Vital Force" or something.

Fighting Spirit, Spiral Power, whatever. (though again, I'm going animu)

[Ganbare Gincun]

Watch the battle in Willow where Madmartigan kills the dragon by hopping on it's neck and making it blow up its own head. That's what they want. At no point do they want to be forced into a concept where they shoot energy bolts like Lion-O of the Thundercats.

Willow is exactly the sort of fantasy where fighters are incomparably inferior to spellcasters, and basically needs the plot to be on their side all the time. So, should we listen to grognards who want fighters to be weak and boring, partially because they always were so, partially because these grognards grew up on movies with shitty SFX?

No. Those people should play E6 - or some other gritty low-power fantasy game - instead. We already *have* solutions for playing games that simulate Willow or Conan or LOTR. But we have a dearth of decent mid to high level FRPG options on the table right now - hence the slew of Fantasy Heartbreakers floating around out there today.

I don't have any objections to the creation of an anime FRPG that has clearly defined roles, but everyone is going to need to be able to achieve the same levels of power and they will need access to whatever abilities are necessary to defeat an opponent of the appropriate CR. Having Fighters unable to fly up to fight the Dragon, Paladins that can't counter the supernatural powers of Demons, and Monks that - well, can't hit anything - is simply unacceptable.

So, should we listen to grognards who want fighters to be weak and boring, partially because they always were so, partially because these grognards grew up on movies with shitty SFX?

I don't care if you listen to them, but I believe a business that actually wants to, you know, make money, should generally produce a product that appeals to enough people to be financially successful.

A product like Exalted might be moderately successful, but that doesn't mean that turning D&D into an Exalted-wannabee is a great move.

The fact of the matter is that the grognards are dying off. The next generation of gamers are going to want to play FRPGs that resemble the anime they grew up watching. And they aren't going to tolerate the same kind of cognitive dissonance spawned power imbalances that D&D is saddled with right now. If you want to continue making money in the FRPG industry, you're going to need to get in front of this demographic and put out a product that appeals to it.

[Psychic Robot]

Why the hell can we apparently not say "dude who fights good with a normal sword" is at best a level five concept, and that after that your damn well better have some kind of source to give you super powers so you can match level appropriate challenges? There are worse things that have been done with D&D (pathfinder, 4e) that have not driven people away, I don't see why martial classes having "Level 6: choose a power source (ancestral, shadow, nature, elemental, divine, arcane, celestial, turtle, etc.)" and then levels 6-10 give you a hand full of choices between features that are half flavour, half mechanics, and then at level 11 you're expected to be following a PrC that is tailored to "Warrior who punches out dragons and bathes in their blood" or whatever?

like I've said previously you can do that I'd make it like the d20 modern classes where you have a few levels of a "base" class and then you get into the advanced classes that can give you interesting things.

[Novembermike]

But that doesn't change the fact that when Skrulls or Red Hulk or Dr. Doom comes a-knocking he would either have to MacGuyver something up just as good as his flying force field laser suit (making the power loss pointless, since he's just reflavored) or Juggernaut just chuckles to himself and throws a building at 140 km/hr at him. Without his suit or a suitable replacement power, he's crippled. Without martial arts he's just inconvenienced.

Doesn't Iron Man just lost to most of those guys anyway? I haven't read any of that stuff in awhile, but I thought that Tony was completely outmatched against any of the heavy hitters anyway.

That's NOT ENOUGH.

A character whose power is 'counter things other people can do' might do well enough in the fighting minigame but can't advance the plot on their own after a certain level unless the solution is available to everyone. Countering is a lame power; all it lets you do is take a turn. Wizards don't shit themselves when an iron golem shows up or someone activates an antimagic field. They use their magic to find their ways around it.

I'm suggesting you move the magical items into natural sources. The examples I gave were for anti wizard stuff since it's generally the most important, but get rid of magic weapons in favor of masterwork and special materials. Instead of magic to add fire damage to your weapon, forge it with a dragonbone core. A necklace containing the fingerbones of a Doppelganger makes you blend in, providing a stealth bonus. That sort of thing.

Then you end up having magic that's really lame and restrictive. You can't have flying ice castles; you can't have interdimensional necropolis metropolises; you can't have airships equipped with cannons that shoot fireballs, enlarged cones of cold, and lightning bolts; you can't have underwater castles of gold with air pockets that keep the mermen out, etc..

Only if you're incredibly uncreative. The first option for all of these is to just have a cadre of wizards performing upkeep. Every three days they have to enchant a bunch of fireballs, enchant the walls so that they fly or maintain the forcefield. The other option is to us unobtanium and say that those cannons just have explosives in them (you don't actually need unobtanium for this one), the flying castle is resting on a flying rock bed, the interdimensional necropolis breaks through the barriers between dimensions because of the psychic torment contained within and whatever. Honestly, I hear a lot of bad storytelling in DnD and a lot of it comes from the "it's magic, don't gotta explain shit" perspective. Making people actually be creative every once in awhile is great by my book.

[Swordslinger]

Only if you're incredibly uncreative. The first option for all of these is to just have a cadre of wizards performing upkeep. Every three days they have to enchant a bunch of fireballs, enchant the walls so that they fly or maintain the forcefield. The other option is to us unobtanium and say that those cannons just have explosives in them (you don't actually need unobtanium for this one), the flying castle is resting on a flying rock bed, the interdimensional necropolis breaks through the barriers between dimensions because of the psychic torment contained within and whatever. Honestly, I hear a lot of bad storytelling in DnD and a lot of it comes from the "it's magic, don't gotta explain shit" perspective. Making people actually be creative every once in awhile is great by my book.

I'd like to see that too.

It creates a lot more plots if you ask me when wizards stuff requires other stuff, as opposed to "I create it out of thin air, cause I have no need of your petty economy."

I'd like to have some unobtanium (or maybe more precisely uncreatium) wizards could have to find on a quest. It gives great ideas for plots for PCs. A fundamental problem with any kind of wish economy is that there's really no reason for PC wizards to adventure at all, save to gain XP to make magic items.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Doesn't Iron Man just lost to most of those guys anyway? I haven't read any of that stuff in awhile, but I thought that Tony was completely outmatched against any of the heavy hitters anyway.

Yeah, but unlike a fighter, we could see him leveling up a bit to actually take these things on and win. Maybe he meets an alien who teaches him how to build a time machine into his suit, or some kind of quantum teleport technology. Point is, after he's met the alien (or whatever), he can now replicate this shit and is actually useful.

I'm suggesting you move the magical items into natural sources. The examples I gave were for anti wizard stuff since it's generally the most important, but get rid of magic weapons in favor of masterwork and special materials. Instead of magic to add fire damage to your weapon, forge it with a dragonbone core. A necklace containing the fingerbones of a Doppelganger makes you blend in, providing a stealth bonus. That sort of thing.

Not seeing how this is better. You still need to find random crap you depend on, except instead of kissing wizard ass, you're kissing DM ass and hoping he lets you find these monsters.

Only if you're incredibly uncreative. The first option for all of these is to just have a cadre of wizards performing upkeep. Every three days they have to enchant a bunch of fireballs, enchant the walls so that they fly or maintain the forcefield. The other option is to us unobtanium and say that those cannons just have explosives in them (you don't actually need unobtanium for this one), the flying castle is resting on a flying rock bed, the interdimensional necropolis breaks through the barriers between dimensions because of the psychic torment contained within and whatever. Honestly, I hear a lot of bad storytelling in DnD and a lot of it comes from the "it's magic, don't gotta explain shit" perspective. Making people actually be creative every once in awhile is great by my book.

Or it just turns into the 4e problem where every NPC mage does cool shit, but your PC mage can't do anything cool. Then the game designers have the audacity to tell you PCs are special.

A fundamental problem with any kind of wish economy is that there's really no reason for PC wizards to adventure at all, save to gain XP to make magic items.

Except, you know, to save the world where all their stuff is. Really, even if you don't care about possessions, there have got to be a few people you care about somewhere in the world.

[Josh_Kablack]

The next generation of gamers are going to want to play FRPGs that resemble the anime they grew up watching.

You're right, but your timing is way off.

Pokemon premiered in the US thirteen years ago now. The kids who saw it when they were in 3rd grade and therefore grew up not knowing the difference between an anime and a cartoon have now completed undergrad degrees and have careers and marriage engagements interfering with the gaming they had been doing.

Maybe 3.0 D&D could have ridden that wave, but it is currently a decade too late to "get in front of it"

[MfA]

I'm suggesting you move the magical items into natural sources. The examples I gave were for anti wizard stuff since it's generally the most important, but get rid of magic weapons in favor of masterwork and special materials. Instead of magic to add fire damage to your weapon, forge it with a dragonbone core. A necklace containing the fingerbones of a Doppelganger makes you blend in, providing a stealth bonus. That sort of thing.

The original complaint was about item dependency period really, whether it's inherently magical or made out of rare natural ingredients changes the flavour but doesn't make the characters any less item dependent.

Of course I personally have no problem with item dependency ... and can think of plenty of mechanical ways to differentiate characters by simply keying certain magical items to certain class abilities and archetypical stats (skills, BAB, ability scores).

[Novembermike]

Of course I personally have no problem with item dependency ... and can think of plenty of mechanical ways to differentiate characters by simply keying certain magical items to certain class abilities and archetypical stats (skills, BAB, ability scores).

The problem is that most of these stats are bad. Say you're playing a Rogue. It's implied that Rogues can do Rogue-ish things, like sneak past guards, pick locks, set off traps without being hurt, being able to see other people sneaking in shadows, impersonate a guard, that sort of thing. The problem is that the Rogue's ability at this stuff is determined by 3 different sources, his Ability Scores, Skill Levels and Feats/Items. For abilities scores, the rogue needs Dex in order to do a lot of the basic stuff (dodge attacks, hit things after a feat or two, pick locks, sneak etc), Strength for climb, jump and damage, Con to concentrate while picking locks during combat or to take extra damage, Int for better forgeries and more skills, Wisdom to see better and Charisma to bullshit better. Most rogues end up about 20% better at sneaking than spotting people because Dex is better for combat than Wis. It's even worse for classes without a large number of skill points, like Fighters.

It's much better to simplify the skill system and have magic items do something cool and magical. Look at myths and have weapons that force your opponent to tell the truth, that makes you taller and as ferocious as a giant, bursts into fire when wielded by a noble person or can cut through anything. Most magic weapons are pretty boring and are along the lines of "uh, it's a little bit sharper".

Not seeing how this is better. You still need to find random crap you depend on, except instead of kissing wizard ass, you're kissing DM ass and hoping he lets you find these monsters.

If your DMs a douchebag the game isn't going to be that great. No shit.

Or it just turns into the 4e problem where every NPC mage does cool shit, but your PC mage can't do anything cool. Then the game designers have the audacity to tell you PCs are special.

Why can't a PC (not only mages, but any PC) do that? You're doing all of it with DM consent because it's a magical Tea Party, but so is pretty much any high level DnD thing. You could also write a set of rules codifying how many wizards you need to hire to keep a 5000 ton fortress built from unobtanium A floating and how much you have to pay the bird man miners to get the unobtanium and whatever else, but that's generally just going to create limiting rules.

[sabs]

Kids don't see a difference between Cartoons and Anime, because most of the cartoons they watch ARE anime.

Kid Leyoke, POkemon, Yugi-Oh

[Josh_Kablack]

Kids don't see a difference between Cartoons and Anime, because most of the cartoons they watch ARE anime.

Yup.

But that really wasn't true (at least not to the same extent) pre-Pokemon.

[Prak]

Why the hell can we apparently not say "dude who fights good with a normal sword" is at best a level five concept, and that after that your damn well better have some kind of source to give you super powers so you can match level appropriate challenges? There are worse things that have been done with D&D (pathfinder, 4e) that have not driven people away, I don't see why martial classes having "Level 6: choose a power source (ancestral, shadow, nature, elemental, divine, arcane, celestial, turtle, etc.)" and then levels 6-10 give you a hand full of choices between features that are half flavour, half mechanics, and then at level 11 you're expected to be following a PrC that is tailored to "Warrior who punches out dragons and bathes in their blood" or whatever?

like I've said previously you can do that I'd make it like the d20 modern classes where you have a few levels of a "base" class and then you get into the advanced classes that can give you interesting things.

Part of my question was "why are we still beating this dead horse?"

[MGuy]

I have no idea why this is even a discussion anymore. We all know fighters need more "stuff" and if people don't wanna play games of superman [I don't] then they don't have to. If people don't wanna play One Piece Then they don't have to. If people wanna play Lord of the Rings [meh] Then they can. A fighter just needs to have shit that makes them viable in their setting. What else do we need to cover here?