hogarth wrote:Sure you can bring "old" 4E books to an "Essentials" game,
This goes quite a bit further than that 3.5E did to 3.0E. <10% of the spells got changed going from 3.0E to 3.5E, the vast majority of them being in the PHB. I mean, there were updates to other non-core material in later books but it wasn't that extensive.
Moreover, look at the Sword and Fist book again. Not many expansion options got the axe as you'd think. Let's take a look. Actually, you know what? Since I have most of these books on hand and know where the feats originated from, I don't have to look too hard to see where the feats come from. So I can do pretty much 90% of the feats that got changed going into 3.5E.
Close Quarters Fighting: No change, it's a straight-up reprint with a couple of sentences added to clarify.
Defensive Throw: No change, reprint.
Eagle Claw Attack: Positive change, the feat in 3.0E straight up did NOTHING. Like, literally nothing. It's more useless than Weapon Specialization: Net. The feat still sucks in 3.5E, but at least it does something now.
Earth's Embrace: Enormous nerf. Instead of doing critical hit damage you do a measly +1d10 damage. This along with the change to polymorph completely killed off the fighter-grappler build.
Expert Tactician: This got nerfed, but in another 3.0E product. Song and Silence.
Eyes in the Back of Your Head: This feat became easier to qualify for in 3.5E.
Fists of Iron: Small nerf despite the +1 damage. It requires an additional feat that you had anyway and draws from your stunning attempts rather than a separate counter.
Flying Kick: Nerf, only does 1d12 extra damage instead of double unarmed damage. While this really hurt monks, it was probably a good thing because it made druids significantly less crazy.
Freezing the Lifeblood: Enormous nerf, requires a BAB of +10 instead of +5 now. This means that monks can only take this at level 18 now instead of 9.
Great Ki(ai) Shout: Huge nerf, now only affects characters which have less hit die than you have.
Hold the Line: Straight-up reprint, no change.
Improved/Superior Expertise: No change, reprint.
Improved Overrun: Drastic change, though it's not the feat's fault so much as it was Andy's Stealth nerf. This is actually the first feat to get hugely nerfed in the transition from S&F/OA to Complete Warrior/Player's Handbook.
Karmic Strike: Requires an extra feat, but overall it's a buff. Instead of the damage happening simultaneously, you go first now. Which can allow you to kill a fucker or use an expansion option to scoot away from the attack instead of taking damage. This turns Karmic Strike from 3.0E's 'nice trick' to 'if you're not a Book of Nine Swords character, get this or Elusive Target if you want to fight in melee'.
Monkey Grip: This got buffed from 3.0E to 3.5E. It's easier to qualify for and doesn't just restrict you to using a larger weapon in one hand anymore.
Off-Hand Parry: lol
Pain Touch: This got a significant (accidental) buff. In addition to being much easier to qualify for at low level, thus actually succeeding in the task of making monks not completely worthless, in 3.5E it works for any stunning attack rather than just ones made from Stunning Fist.
Pin Shield: This feat got nerfed in some ways, buffed in others. In 3.5E the reduction to AC happens automatically at the cost of giving up all of your off-hand attacks. In 3.0E you could only get the AC reduction on off-hand attacks AND if you hit with it, but you got your attack back. Overall, I'm going to say that it's a nerf at low levels, buff at higher levels.
Power Critical: Got an enormous nerf from Masters of the Wild. Which I don't really blame them for since it made druids go completely crazy.
Prone Attack: Got buffed going into 3.5E. You now also suffer no penalty to AC for being attacked while prone.
Roundabout Kick: Reprint.
Sharp-Shooting: Reprint.
Shield Expert/Improved Shield Bash (3.5E): Name's different, function is the same. Improved Shield bash is easier to qualify for now, which is awesome. However:
Improved Shield Bash (3.0E)/Improved Shield Bash (3.5E): A nerf because the old-style Improved Shield bash pushed an enemy five feet when you hit them with it without the need for a bull-rush check. That's extremely helpful and in conjunction with Divine Shield made paladins quite the face-rocker in melee from levels 6-9.
Throw Anything: Ineffective nerf. Instead of throwing ANY weapon you can only throw melee weapons. But you wouldn't want to throw ranged weapons in the first place anyway. So...? :puzzled:
Zen Archery: Ridiculously powerful buff for cleric archers. This completely opened the cleric archer profession up away from elves with the war/elf domain and gave us clerics who upped the ante with the Spell and Travel and Trickery domains while having a higher attack bonus. Nice work, assholes.
Divine Cleansing: Reprint.
Divine Might: Nerf or buff. It lasts only one round now instead of several, but is only a free action now. Which makes it more usable than the DotF one--unless you read the Sage's ridiculous comment about Divine Might being a free action for no real reason.
Divine Resistance: Buff, gives temporary hit points now.
Divine Shield: Enormous nerf or buff, depending on how you view things. This completely killed off the Captain America paladin, which makes me sad. Yes, the bonus to AC is much larger now (since it's untyped instead of an enhancement). But no one really used Divine Shield for that anyway.
Divine Vengeance: Buff, doesn't require extra turning anymore.
The feats didn't fare too bad. If you're a monk, 3.5E was like having your balls/ovaries carved out from your body cavity, but if you were any other sword-based class you could still pretty much play the same character. There are a couple of other feats that I missed in other expansion options, too, most notably Practiced Spellcaster and Persistent Spell. But that's Forgotten Realms crap anyway.
So let's look at the PrCs now. Things ended up much worse for the compatibility fight in this light.
(EDIT: I was about to go on a long tirade detailing the differences... but I realized I already did that. So I'm just going to repost what I wrote from
this thread. Yeah, from a 'did Complete Warrior screw over the fighters' standpoint it's pretty damning. But hogarth said that the change from 4.0E to 4.5E Essentials is just as big. And that just ain't so. I mean, ALREADY 4.0E as of September 2009 and July 2010 have completely different metagames.)
Bear Warrior
3.5E Bear Warriors get fewer skills, lose out on a save, and get their bear forms at later levels than their OA counterpart. Depending on what expansion options you have you might be able to rage slightly more often than the OA Bear Warrior. But honestly, who gives a fuck? You have less of a reason to stay in the class and you get the abilities you need later. Weak.
Verdict: Puzzling nerf. The PrC is noticably WEAKER now but the core competencies aren't all that changed. People most complained about the one-level dip and... that's still there.
Blade Singer
Disappointing nerf to Tome and Blood stealth rewrite. It's better than a one-level dip in Bladesinger than the Tome and Blood Counterpart and you end up casting higher-level spells if you came into it as a wizard. But it performs its core function (staple arcane spellcasting onto a gish) overall worse because it's more difficult.
Verdict: Nerf. Not a big nerf since it's not all that much worse than the original class, but it's still an ugly example of how 3.5E does business.
Cavalier
The 3.5E Cavalier drops a feat that old Cavaliers wouldn't use (Weapon Focus: Sword), gets rid of a game-breaking prerequisite, gets a much higher bonus on their Courtly Knowledge Check, and levels of Cavalier stack with Paladin for determining your mount.
However, the Sword and Fist Cavalier got a higher attack bonus and also got Full-Mounted Attack, which was so badass that people stood up and took notice. The new Full-Mounted Attack is just puzzlingly bad. That ability is completely useless. I could be doing an attack at my full BAB at 5x the damage... or I could be doing 3 to 5 separate attacks at a steadily lowering base attack at 1x the damage. Why, God, why?
Verdict: Nerf. It's not a big nerf if you're ending the campaign early, but it doesn't have an ability that makes you do a backflip once you slog through it anymore.
Drunken Master
Oh, Jesus. This used to be an extraordinarily good dipping class for people who had two levels in rogue (or monk, if they were using the OA variant) or for monks who predicted that their campaign would end before level 16. Now it's not good for any-fucking thing. This goddamn class doesn't even advance a monk's unarmed damage or flurry rate. Awful.
Verdict: Nerf. And not just any nerf either, but it was like someone injecting your genitals with hot foam, carved them out of your body cavity, and tossed your foam penis or vulva or what-have-you round the room while the game devs laughed at you.
Eye of Gruumsh
Well, they removed the clause from MotW that states that people raised by orcs can still become this PrC. You just gotta love that D&D racism.
3.5E Eyes get two more skills. Swing Blindly is no longer a suicidal course of action--the MotW version gave a +2 bonus to strength while raging at the cost of provoking AoOs like you were spellcasting. Barbarians can not use the Concentrate skill while raging. Yeah.
Verdict: Boosted from unusable to acceptable dipping class. Excellent! Party time! Woo woo woo wooooooo! You guys know it's things like this which cause people to accuse Andy Collins for having a hard-on for dwarven Fighter/Barbarians, right?
Frenzied Berserker
The Frenzied Berserker deals flat-out more damage than the MotW version at the cost of losing nothing else.
Verdict: Boosted from decent to crazy-good, especially with the 3.5E change to Power Attack. I want everyone to learn the lessons from this class to game design. If you have a bunch of strong options and a bunch of weak options and you decide to nerf the strong options, you need to nerf ALL of them. Otherwise you'll have a game that's just as unbalanced but also the additional disadvantage of being more boring than before.
Halfling Outrider
The Sword and Fist Halfling Outrider is on the whole much weaker than the 3.5E counterpart, what with better AC bonuses and mounts. Except that the S&F Halfling Outrider had a Leap from the Saddle that was their version of Full-Mounted Attack, which boosts the considerable gap.
Verdict: It's a wash. If you held a gun to my head I would ask to be the 3.5E halfling outrider if I could get to be the S&F Cavalier, too. If you forced me to stay within editions, I would pick the 3.0E Halfling Outrider and Cavalier.
Hunter of the Dead
These classes are almost exactly the same, except for a 'hilarious' typo in the example character which clearly uses the 3.0E text. The new hunter of the dead has a slightly expanded spell list and two extra smite undeads after 8 levels; the old one had a much larger Positive Energy burst.
Verdict: It's a wash. The new Hunter of the Dead is slightly better at one-on-one combat, the old Hunter of the Dead is better at low-CR horde-breaking. But it doesn't matter, since the PrC still SUCKS and makes you wish you were playing a Tempest or a Consecrated Harrier or a Knight of the Middle Circle instead. Or preferably all three. Anything but this garbage
Knight of the Chalice
The 3.0E version had a d12 for hit dice. The 3.5E version had a d10. That's already a bad sign. The 3.5E is also missing two spells from the list (though they are VERY important spells: Zeal and Weapon of the Deity).
The 3.5E's Fiendslaying applies to more monsters than the 3.0E version. Good.
The 3.5E Censure Demon specifies that the demon is sent back as with a dismissal spell (the 3.0E says that they're just sent back to their home plane; wow, that's useless)
The 3.5E's Courage of Heaven is much better, giving blanket immunities to themselves and their buddies to all evil outsiders, rather than just self-immunities and bonus to buddies from demons only.
Verdict: Boost. They still suck, but just extending their ability to all fiends rather than just demons made them a whole lot better for no reason.
Knight Protector
They extended the racial prerequisites. That's good. They increased the BAB requirement and dropped the skill bonuses. Um, what the shit? That's a kick in the throat, but not deal-breaking.
But THEN they got rid of Defensive Blow, which was the entire reason people entered the class. Did they give the Knight Protector something to compensate for this? No.
I don't think so, assholes.
Verdict: Nerfed into uselessness. Knight Protector was one of those PrCs that every fighter needed to keep up at higher level. And in Andy Collin's diseased mind every fighter having Knight Protector in their resume meant that the class was overpowered, rather than the fighter archetype being underpowered. Bleh.
Order of the Bow Initiate
Okay, so first of all they required an extra skill to bring up and reduced the hit dice. What is with 3.5E edition and being so motherfucking stingy with the d12 and d10?
And look at this! The Old Order of the Bow Initiate had Close Combat Shot, Ranged Sneak Attack, and full-BAB which would've been enough to justify the class on its lonesome. Then as a further kick in the nuts they lost their superior version of Zen Archery, Superior Weapon Specialization, and their own version of opportunist (but with a bow which was all sorts of awesome).
The new OotBI gets... Sharp-Shooting. And the ability to make ranged sneak attacks at 60 feet at 10th level. Holy god, that is awful.
I really can't believe this. They took a perfectly good class and nerfed it into uselessness. I mean, the Knight Protector was super-nerfed but people didn't spend more than a few levels in this class. OotBI used to be one of the few warrior-PrCs that were good for all 10 levels.
Verdict: Nerfed into uselessness. If you still want Close Combat Shot it's still there, but why would you bother anymore?
Purple Dragon Knight
The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Dragon Knight can be gotten at level 6, but requires a BAB of +4. The Complete Warrior one needs to be level 5 but requires a BAB of +5. The FRCS PDN requires Leadership (one of the best feats in the game), while the Complete Warrior PDN needs Negotiator (one of those shitty +2 bonus to two skills feats)
The Complete Warrior PDN also has a +2 bonus to DC for their 'fear' ability, which still fails to keep it level appropriate since the DC is based on class level and the class is only 5 levels long.
Verdict: Since it now requires a dump feat for a marginal benefit, now nerfed into uselessness.
Ravager
The Sword and Fist Ravager requires an extra awful feat (dirty fighting). Looking good so far, Complete Warrior Ravager.
However, the Complete Warrior Ravager has a nerfed Aura of Fear (the S&F Ravager's is unlimited) and a nerfed 'Crudest' Cut (the text in the table and class ability doesn't match, but Crudest sounds awful). The S&F Ravager loses an additional Cruelest Cut if they miss with all of their attacks after declaring that they are using the ability but they only need to hit on any of the attacks in that around rather than a specific one.
The CW Ravager's Visage of Terror is much better than the S&F one, which doesn't require a range of touch and has a save DC that equals their class level + CHA + 10 rather than 14 + CHA.
Verdict: It's a wash pretty much. Ravagers still suck snail bait in both this and the previous edition. If you want to flip out and torture people with your rage, be a Frenzied Berserker instead. Be an Eye of Gruumsh. Hell, be a frickin' Barbarian.
Spellsword
This class is significantly better than the Tome and Blood version, since it gives you what you want right away. However, it practically demands a two-level dip in a non-full caster class. If you were going to do that, why wouldn't you just prepare all of your spells Stilled? You could equip heavier armor and have three or four levels into whatever bullshit class you wanted. Like Incantatrix.
Verdict: Better than the Tome and Blood version, but still crappy compared to core options. How come all of the classes that got boosts still suck so very, very much?
Tattooed Monk
The new Tattooed Monk requires the feat of Endurance now. UGH. But they also let you have every knowledge skill instead of just Arcana and Religion. Um, yay?
Class abilities are still sparse as ever (why would ANYONE take the 10th level of this class?)
Okay, the tattoos are different. And by the way, FUCK YOU for making me detail the differences.
Arrowroot Tattoo: Same.
Bamboo: Same.
Bat: Same.
Bellflower: Same.
Butterfly: Same.
Centipede: Same.
Chameleon: The effect is the same, but alter self works differently in this edition. So it's a buff (pretty significant buff actually), but a meaningless one because it's a fucking second-level spell.
Cloud: This tattoo does not exist for the CW Tattoo Monk! I know it's based off of a spell that only exists in OA, but why?
Crab: The OA TM gains +X/DR, with the +X being their constitution bonus, which means they could get 10 DR of epic-level damage reduction. Which was actually pretty damn good... for monks. The CW TM gains... magic damage reduction. What the hell?
Crane: Same.
Crow: The OA TM specifically states that you can't have this tattoo in non-Rokugan campaigns, so I won't hold it against them.
Dragon: The OA TM gains a scaling x1d8 fire breath with this tattoo, which gives them the grand total of 5d8 damage. The CW just uses an elixir of dragon breath. You know that line about winning the Special Olympics? Yeah.
Dragonfly: The OA's tattoo is an extraordinary ability for some reason.
Falcon: Same
Lion: The OA TM doesn't use up their smite attempt if they miss, unlike the CW version.
Monkey: Same
Moon, Crescent: Same, except the CW tattoo monk needs to get theirs at a later level (9 instead of 7). However, the CW monk can get both this and the Full Moon Tattoo, while the OA one can't (they need to belong to a specific school).
Moon, Full: Same
Mountain: Same, except that a CW monk can end their stance early. Which is a good thing, considering how this fucking thing prevents you from moving.
Nightingale: Same.
Ocean: Same, except that an OA monk needs to be 5th level in this class to take this tattoo first.
Phoenix: Same.
Pine: The CW TM just gets the Remain Conscious feat. The OA TM gets Endurance AND Remain Conscious. You know, that feat tax that the CW version now mysteriously has?
Scorpion: OA does not require the monk to be aware of this attack before applying this admittedly very useful ability (you can sometimes sink a monster's attack by as much as 20 points; very nice).
Spider: The CW version does more constitution damage (2 initial and secondary and isn't temporary) but doesn't stack with Stunning Fist. Hell, it siphons attempts OFF of your Stunning Fist ability. The OA just lives with having poisoned fists for the rest of their life.
Sun: Same, but see that annoying note about exclusive schools above.
Tiger: Same.
Tortoise: Same.
Unicorn: The OA monk can apply their bonus to ANY roll; the CW can only use theirs on d20 rolls.
Wasp: Same, but the OA has a level prerequisite of 3.
White Mask: Same, but the OA has a level prerequisite of 3.
Verdict: Nerfed into uselessness. That goddamn crab tattoo was the only reason why anyone gave this PrC a second look and they took it away from us. Goddamn you, Andy Collins... goddamn you.
That's a pretty big change. It redid the metagame in significant ways. Now Maj's cheese-monk is completely and utterly pointless. But you know what? From a
compatibility standpoint it's not that big of a deal. Most of the PrCs in Sword and Fist didn't get touched. Shintao Monk (the best of the lot) didn't get touched. 3.5E killed off the fighter-archer and some obscure builds. Aside from that, there were four other PrC nerfs. The Hospitaler, the Sacred Fist, the Sacred Exorcist, and the Master of Shrouds.
And that's nearly the entirety of non-spell changes from 3.0E to 3.5E. It's pretty significant, but
most of your Sword and Fist book is still usable.
But it's not really that bad all told compared what's going to happen to 4E. 4E errata killed off many more builds at once than even Complete Warrior did. Even before we get into the whole thing of 'can't use 4.5E material, ever, if you have a 4.0E character' which is a load of fucking horseshit, if Windjammer's quote is correct then WotC is going to go a step further than 3.5E
ever did in killing off old characters.
