Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

[Grek]

The time that it actually takes to copy a spell is questionable. Under "Arcane Magical Writings" it says 24 hours to study it and then another 24 to write the spell. Under the description of the Spellcraft skill, it says 8 hours to study a spell and has no mention of how long it takes to write the spell down.

Regardless of how long the studying phase takes, the writing phase definitely takes 1440 minutes, 10 of which are spent casting Secret Page if you're using the spell for that.

[Username17]

The time that it actually takes to copy a spell is questionable. Under "Arcane Magical Writings" it says 24 hours to study it and then another 24 to write the spell. Under the description of the Spellcraft skill, it says 8 hours to study a spell and has no mention of how long it takes to write the spell down.

Regardless of how long the studying phase takes, the writing phase definitely takes 1440 minutes, 10 of which are spent casting Secret Page if you're using the spell for that.

This is a misleading answer. Secret Page skips the writing phase entirely, because it creates a fully written spell page.

-Username17

[Prak]

Taking a look at Secret Page, you'll have to explain that, Frank, because it doesn't say either way, unless you're implying that you can create a page of spell formulas for preparation by using Secret Page on random scribblings. Given that spell scribing requires vague, but explicit valuable components, most dms will shoot this idea for this exact purpose, with the possible exception of using Secret Page to alter already written spells into other spells.

[Username17]

Taking a look at Secret Page, you'll have to explain that, Frank, because it doesn't say either way, unless you're implying that you can create a page of spell formulas for preparation by using Secret Page on random scribblings. Given that spell scribing requires vague, but explicit valuable components, most dms will shoot this idea for this exact purpose, with the possible exception of using Secret Page to alter already written spells into other spells.

The "fake" page you overlay over the page is explicitly allowed to be a fully functional and convincing spell book page. That is the thing that is created by the casting of the spell. The "real" page can indeed be a series of crayon pictures of houses and happy children or whatever. The fake page is the actual spellbook page you care about.

-Username17

[zugschef]

The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day.

Next, she must spend a day studying the spell.

The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.

The time that it actually takes to copy a spell is questionable. Under "Arcane Magical Writings" it says 24 hours to study it and then another 24 to write the spell. Under the description of the Spellcraft skill, it says 8 hours to study a spell and has no mention of how long it takes to write the spell down.

8 hours is a normal workday in DnD, it's the same with item crafting. How long it takes to actually write the spell down is stated under writing a spell into a spellbook which is 24 hours. 24 hours is different from a day.

Regardless of how long the studying phase takes, the writing phase definitely takes 1440 minutes, 10 of which are spent casting Secret Page if you're using the spell for that.

This doesn't make any kind of sense because before the spell is cast and as soon as it is completed, you can't do anything with the contents of the secret page.

So I guess it's like Frank says: you spend an 8 hour workday to learn and understand the spell, then cast secret page which takes you 10 minutes, et voilà, the spell is copied.

The "real" page can indeed be a series of crayon pictures of houses and happy children or whatever.

I'm not so sure about that.

Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.

This strongly implies that only a page with the real text of a spell can be used to create a secret page with a spell written in it. At least that's how it's probably done at most gaming tables. (But don't ask me why a Blessed Book has a 1000 pages and costs only 12500 gold pieces.)

[shadzar]

notice that important part... appear to be something entirely different this does NOT allow you to write a second spell on a page with one already present, not allow you to use secret page to scribe a spell that will function.

you can make a spell look like a map of the local area or something so you can have it without needing a cartographer in the group, then switch between the map and spell at-will, and even later remove the map entirely, but it does NOT grant you the ability to put multiple spells on a single page.

it cannot actually scribe a spell, only make something already there APPEAR TO BE a functioning spell to fool or trap other people. thus the mention of Varsuvius's favorite spell "explosive runes".

[zugschef]

notice that important part... appear to be something entirely different this does NOT allow you to write a second spell on a page with one already present, not allow you to use secret page to scribe a spell that will function.

You fail at reading comprehension, because that's exactly what the rules say: "The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell."

[shadzar]

"to show", not "to function as".

it LOOKS LIKE something else, not works like it, except in the case of a map or recipe for mead, or whatever.

it is like writing with lemon juice and letting it dry, then writing over it with ink a sudoku. you can see the hidden contents but the sudoku isn't the important thing on the page.

effectively this spell is an illusion, though it is alteration since it doesnt change the page itself, but it does change what was on the page.

the standard rule still applies, one spell per page of a spellbook. secret page doesn't allow you to put a new spell in a spellbook. it only conceals the real contents on the page.

"to show"
"appears to be"

not

"becomes"

it only changes what the page looks like. again think Marauder's Map in Harry Potter.

[erik]

Shadz, it is not an illusion. It is transmutation.

Much the same way that Alter Self disguises you but also can give you extra appendages or whathaveyous.

I think it is reasonable to make the argument that if a text shows as something, then that it is that something for textual purposes. If I change a Twilight page so that it now resembles a page from Moby Dick, it both appears as and IS a Moby Dick page.

If appearing like a spell in a book doesn't count as being a spell in a book, then they need to be very explicit, since the general understanding is that if text looks like X, it is X. Because it reads exactly the same.

The 3.5 and 3.0 versions of the spell differ only in that for 3.5 they added the line "The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell." There'd be no point in adding that change unless it was to explicitly grant that you can create functional spell pages.

If it cannot do this, then what the hell is it doing as a level 3 arcane spell? I certainly wondered that back before they added that line for 3.5.

[Kaelik]

erik, Shadazar, in addition to being an idiot, is a 2e and older idiot. Magic spells in spellbooks used to be a lot more magic, and actually conveyed some of the power.

He doesn't understand that a spell text is just a spell text, and you can totally just read it if you want.

[erik]

Kaelik, well yeah. I didn't dismiss him out of hand and felt his argument was worth encountering earnestly since there is a sort of reason behind thinking that because some writing is maaaaaagic, that the literal text is not the only determining factor. Like I don't know if Secret Page would work on a scroll. I would suspect not, but I don't have a good foundation for that argument.

For a spell book it seems more cut and dry that the text is just text with expensive ink. I can see not changing non-spellbook pages into functional spell book pages since they weren't made with expensive ink.


Now, I wonder what limitations there are on Secret Page. Are there any other FAQ-esque level clarifications on it?

I presume you must have intimate knowledge of whatever you are turning the page into, and cannot create things willy-nilly. I imagine you can't create a spell page if you don't already know the spell, for instance.

Likewise if using it to create a warrant or writ, you'd need to make a forgery check. Or if making a map you'd need to make an appropriate Knowledge check. If making porn, you'd need to make a proper craft-art check.

Tis a pity that the casting time is 10 minutes with all components. It would be a fun covert/on the spot spell like Hisoka's Deceitful Texture trick from Hunter X Hunter that I could actually imagine burning a spell slot on.

[Prak]

Just make a magic item of Secret Page, the Psychic Paper.

[Previn]

The time that it actually takes to copy a spell is questionable. Under "Arcane Magical Writings" it says 24 hours to study it and then another 24 to write the spell. Under the description of the Spellcraft skill, it says 8 hours to study a spell and has no mention of how long it takes to write the spell down.

Regardless of how long the studying phase takes, the writing phase definitely takes 1440 minutes, 10 of which are spent casting Secret Page if you're using the spell for that.

This is a misleading answer. Secret Page skips the writing phase entirely, because it creates a fully written spell page.

-Username17

My only issue with this is that Secret Page does only 1 page, where as any spell of 2nd level or higher takes up more than 1 page (ignoring the ambiguity of front/back issues). I'm not sold that Secret Page can be used to transcribe anything beyond a first level spell.

[Username17]

Unless you have a BBB (where all spells take one page), you do in fact need multiple castings of Secret Page to make a spell higher than 1st level.

-Username17

[zugschef]

Unless you have a BBB (where all spells take one page),[...]

Boccob’s Blessed Book: This well-made tome is always of small size, typically no more than 12 inches tall, 8 inches wide, and 1 inch thick. All such books are durable, waterproof, bound with iron overlaid with silver, and locked.
A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a Boccob’s blessed book with spells without paying the 25 gp [errata: 100 gp] per page material cost. This book is never found as randomly generated treasure with spells already inscribed in it.
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret page; Price 12,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.

I guess that must be 3E, because the BBB in the 3.5 DMG has no such clause.

[K]

A Geometer's spells only take one page regardless of level, so they'd get more mileage out of the spell.

[zugschef]

A Geometer's spells only take one page regardless of level, so they'd get more mileage out of the spell.

The BBB doesn't make sense anyway. You need 100 gp worth of ink per page and it's got 1000 pages, so it should cost at least 100000 gp not 12500. What I think they should have done is make it a 100 page book for which the 100 gp cost per page is already paid and which needs only one page per spell regardless of its level.

[ishy]

What they should have done is just making the scribing costs free.
No need for arguments about secret page / how much it costs for your wbl.
Less annoying fiddling tracking etc.

[zugschef]

What they should have done is just making the scribing costs free.

But that is exactly what they've done.

[shadzar]

Shadz, it is not an illusion. It is transmutation.

Much the same way that Alter Self disguises you but also can give you extra appendages or whathaveyous.

I think it is reasonable to make the argument that if a text shows as something, then that it is that something for textual purposes. If I change a Twilight page so that it now resembles a page from Moby Dick, it both appears as and IS a Moby Dick page.

If appearing like a spell in a book doesn't count as being a spell in a book, then they need to be very explicit, since the general understanding is that if text looks like X, it is X. Because it reads exactly the same.

The 3.5 and 3.0 versions of the spell differ only in that for 3.5 they added the line "The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell." There'd be no point in adding that change unless it was to explicitly grant that you can create functional spell pages.

If it cannot do this, then what the hell is it doing as a level 3 arcane spell? I certainly wondered that back before they added that line for 3.5.

odd i didn't notice that in the SRD it was changed form alteration to transmutation...

they probably went back to 2nd edition with the 3.5 version cause that is seemingly what it says also.

When cast, a secret page spell alters the actual contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. Thus, a map can be changed to become a treatise on burnishing ebony walking sticks. The text of a spell can be altered to show a ledger page or even another form of spell.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

secret page was always a method to disguise things in your spell books. make a spell book look like a troll recipe book. that way the wizard would have less to lose if someone saw it and didn't have a need to cook human and gnoll kabobs.

as others have said, spells take up more than one page in a spell book, so this won't work as people think, and can't as it changes one page per cast.

now show me the rules for spellbooks and pages in 3.5 to state that they don't infuse magic energy into the book itself, since that is a part of Vancian system that 3.x still used. even if it doesn't i am pretty sure that a single spell page, even masterwork, can hold only ONE spell ever. so using Secret Page on an existing spell in a spellbook, only allow you to hide that spell from others.

again this is why i say it is more illusion than alteration/transmutation, since it does change the LOOKS of the pages contents, but not its actual contents. you just cant have 2 spells on a single spellbook page. that is what scrolls are for.

Secret Page, says always "appears to be", "to show as", and the like. its visual and other senses related to it makes it LOOK LIKE something it isn't, but this does NOT convey the ability to violate the 1 spell per spellbook page rule. it doesn't explicitly say you can put a second spell on a spellbook page in the spell, it is a method of disguise, simply as that.

anyone, Frank included, using it to try to bypass the one spell per spellbook page rule, is pretty much just being a Munchkin.

i doubt it would change a scroll spell to function also, even though they are made for multiple spells storing, but you would have to consult 3,x rules for that, as a scroll in previous editions ALL spells had to be prepared for the scroll in advance of making it, and once cast the spell was gone, and the scroll itself not able to be used as a spell scroll again, without losing any spells left on it to inscribe the new set.

Secret Page can be used to disguise a spell scroll as a wanted poster, map, shopping list, wares list, etc.

it is that simple. Secret Page is used to disguise things written on paper.

find the rules for a spellbook, then consider when thinking specific rules overrule general ones, that Secret Page constantly says "appears to be", "seems to be", "to show". in the English language this is all synonymous for "looks like". a torch that is a handle to a secret door, appears to be just a normal torch. same thing. it is a disguise technique.

tl;dr

The "fake" page you overlay over the page is explicitly allowed to be a fully functional and convincing spell book page.

this is WRONG as fuck! it does NOT explicitly allow it to be a fully functioning spell. it states NOWHERE that it does allow this.

[zugschef]

@shadzar: You still fail at reading comprehension. The spell does explicitly allow this and if that wasn't enough, the BBB uses secret page to do exactly this.

The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.

Boccob’s Blessed Book: [...] A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a Boccob’s blessed book with spells without paying the 25 gp [errata: 100 gp] per page material cost. [...] Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret page; Price 12,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.

If you follow this with another rant, I finally put you on ignore, because then I'm finally convinced that you are first and foremost a blatant troll.

[Kaelik]

A Geometer's spells only take one page regardless of level, so they'd get more mileage out of the spell.

The BBB doesn't make sense anyway. You need 100 gp worth of ink per page and it's got 1000 pages, so it should cost at least 100000 gp not 12500. What I think they should have done is make it a 100 page book for which the 100 gp cost per page is already paid and which needs only one page per spell regardless of its level.

You are an idiot. The entire point of the BBB is that it is a better deal than scribing spells if you scribe lots of them. If it cost the same amount as filling the entire book than it would always be better to not buy a BBB.

[zugschef]

You are an idiot. The entire point of the BBB is that it is a better deal than scribing spells if you scribe lots of them. If it cost the same amount as filling the entire book than it would always be better to not buy a BBB.

You completely missed my point which is that the BBB doesn't use secret page in a comprehensible way.

[Kaelik]

You are an idiot. The entire point of the BBB is that it is a better deal than scribing spells if you scribe lots of them. If it cost the same amount as filling the entire book than it would always be better to not buy a BBB.

You completely missed my point which is that the BBB doesn't use secret page in a comprehensible way.

That wasn't your point in the post I was quoting. If BBB used Secret Page actually it should cost zero gp, because that is how much Secret Page costs, but if it doesn't, then it should cost some random amount. It costs some random amount. Because it is not the application of Secret Page. Pre-reqs to create an item does not mean that the item is just the spell cast X times.

[shadzar]

@shadzar: You still fail at reading comprehension. The spell does explicitly allow this and if that wasn't enough, the BBB uses secret page to do exactly this.

The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.

can you read at all? see the bold portion, it does not say, and note the SRD is the EXACT text in 3.5 PHB, "functions as". "to show", "appears to be", not "counts as".

if no such spell exists called "Buttscratcher!", and you use Secret Page to disguise an existing spell or map with this spell called "Buttscratcher!", it does not make this new spell work or function. it is jsut a spell in order to disguise a wizards spellbook. you can rant all you want about how "this is Sparta 3.x!" but the spell is unchanged save for 2sqft vs 3sqft, and alteration school to transmutation school from 2nd to 3rd.

the spell is unchanged except for those 2 details. can you find anything post Dragon 280 (i think this is where 3rd edition content started) that explains the spell in any way shape or form? if not, you must GO BACK in editions to see what it was created to do.

feel free to ask Tweet, Mearls, Monte, etc, but i bet you they would agree with my reading as was in TSR editions. i could pull up articles from Dragon, that exist AFTER Gygax left TSR and Monte Cook, and others that wrote 3rd edition were working at TSR, but you probably wouldn't take their words for it being it was 2nd edition, instead of 3rd, even though they used the spell mostly verbatim and NEVER clarified it, because it clearly states what it does as disguising the damn wizards spell book.

outside of the BBB argument (which doesnt matter for anything but itself, not ALL spellbooks which you initially asked), show PROOF that Secret Page makes the new content of the page a fully functioning spell as yourself and Frank seem to think.

i have shown where it can simply be disproven, now you prove where the concept that it CAN do as you say is written.

note: you can always houserule a spell to work any way you wish, but if you want BTB answers, then the book doesn't allow what you think it does.