The Gaming Den

Ugh, more FAQ hidden errata and "clarifications" and similar stuff and nonsense? Yeah, now I'm definitely discarding the spear idea. Just pure magic goodness.

I am joining an Pathfinder game that starts at level 3 and caps at level 8. Lots of homebrewed houserules. Can you guys please help me make an effective and interesting character? I don't know PF at all.

Only core classes, restricted to homebrewed races, but can take equipment, feats, spells from any PF book. Note that all races have homebrewed stats, not PF stats.

Used a 20 PB to generate stats. Alternatively, I rolled an array of 16,16, 14, 13, 9, 8 that have not employed in either build. I suspect the second build (human cleric summoner) might be better off with the rolled array....

Character Attempt 1: Elf Wizard (only race with a +2 Int bonus)

Elf [+2 Int -2 Cha] Conjurer [Teleportation: Shift 9/day. A whole 5 feet per shift. Opposition schools: Enchantment, Evocation]

Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 22 Wis 11 Cha 5
Saves: Fort 4 Reflex 4 Will 4
HP: 15+2d6, AC: 12, Initiative: +12
Familiar: Greensting Scorpion (grants +4 initiative)

Feats: Scribe Scroll, Improved Initiative, Craft Wondrous Item

Skills: Disable Device (+11), Knowledge Arcana (+12), Knowledge Local (+12), Knowledge Nature (+12), Mechanics (+15), Perception (+9*), Spellcraft (+12), Stealth (+5)
*Familiar-granted Alertness, Conspiracy Hunter Bonus

Traits: Conspiracy Hunter, Warrior of Old

Equipment (3000 gp budget):
Crafted Headband of Intellect +2
Crafted Cloak of Resistance +1
1000 gp to be allocated to other gear

Spells: *means memorized ^ means opposition school spell

Oth (infinite): Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Other stuff

1st (4+1): Charm Person^, Color Spray*, Enlarge Person, Grease*, Mage Armor, Mount, Protection from Evil, Silent Image*, Snowball, Summon Monster I, Vanish*

2nd (3+1): Bull’s Strength, Create Pit*, False Life *, Fox’s Cunning, Glitterdust*, Invisibility, Levitate, Make Whole, Mirror Image, Pyrotechnics*, Resist Energy, Spider Climb, Summon Monster II, Web

Character Attempt 2: Human Cleric Summoner (Only race where I can get a Wis bonus)

Middle-Aged Human [+1 Wis, -1 Cha] Cleric [ecclesitheurge archetype]

Str 6 Dex 6 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 20 Cha 15
Saves: Fort 5 Reflex 0 Will 9
HP: 11+2d8, AC: Terribad, Initiative: +0*

Primary Domain: Trickery (Copycat 8/day)
Secondary Domain: Luck (Touch of Luck 8/day)
Other accessible domains: Air, Chaos, Charm, Healing, Liberation, Madness, Spring, Weather

Feats: Augmented Summons, Spell Focus Conjuration, Sacred Summons

Alignment: Whatever is most beneficial to Sacred Summons feat (campaign deities are just concepts with uncertain and unstated alignment).

Skills: Diplomacy (+8), Perception (+12)*, Spellcraft (+7), Use Magic Device (+5)

Traits*: Conspiracy, Hunter Reactionary

Equipment (3000 gp):
Crafted Cloak of Resistance +1
Bonded Holy Symbol (via ecclesitheurge archetype)
2000 gp to be allocated to other gear

Spells: Note Bonded Holy Symbol allows 1 additional spell to be cast per day. Can spontaneously cast Disguise Self and Invisibility from Trickery Domain.

Oth (infinite): Stuff
1st (4+1): Summon Monster I x2, don’t know what else.
2nd (2+1): Summon Monster II x2, don’t know what else.
Hang out while invisible. Summon stuff fast via sacred summons. Buff summons with A Bit of Luck. Defend self with Copycat, Invisibility, Summons.

As it is, a summoning focused caster doesn't need quite as much casting stat since summons don't care about your save DCs, so on a point buy budget, I'd buy wisdom up to 16 base instead of 18, and maybe make your Dex and Con a bit better?

Also, Lago, what domains do you think would pair well with either Void or Darkness for a 'blaster' cleric?

And for a pure casting focused cleric (i.e. not monkeying with melee combat), would the ecclesitheurge and consequent AC loss be worth it?

If you are allowed, always go aasimar. Aasimar is just the best race mechanicaly (using the racial variants)

So, I'm monkeying with the idea of an "omnicaster", a mage akin to the FF3 sage, which can cast magic from across different spell lists. So far, I have the plan of being a cleric or oracle that poaches wizard spells as well and basically rocks out both the arcane and divine magic without going into mystic theurge and setting levels on fire. Oracle has the Ancient Lorekeeper archetype which trades mystery spells for getting some wizard spells but marked up a level, and that other archetype that gets it shaman spirit, and as such the arcane enlightenment hex. Cleric has better spell access, some wizard spells off domains, and the eccesitheurge archetype for arcane bond-esque goodness. Both have the Dreamed Secrets feat for a couple wizard spells each day.

Basically, which would I be better served with for this idea, Oracle (with Lore, Dark Tapestry, or some other mystery), or Cleric (with some combo of Void, Travel, and Darkness domains)

Neither. You want a Shaman with the Unsworn Shaman archetype. Yes, you will normally bind the Lore spirit and select the Arcane Enlightenment hex, but taking another spirit for their bonus spells is an option. Be either a human or half-human for the favored class bonus option.

Sorry about the MAD. Still, this does give you easy access to a really wide variety of spells and as a prepared caster you're on the wizard spell level chart rather than the sorcerer one which is nice.

Edit - and the wording of the arcane enlightenment hex isn't great for an oracle. If you decide go with one of those two, take the cleric to help max that will save.

Shaman is a pretty competitive option, because they can grab a free metamagic feat and an item creation feat with their hex features. And they also have some VERY good spells on their list, too.

The biggest downside to a Shaman is that their spell list, while having some gems, doesn't have the utility of a cleric's. Especially at the higher levels. You can remedy that to some extent with the human favored class feature but you'll be behind on spells and you'll still have to pick through spells that could be potentially life-saving but are situational. Waiting until level 13 to snag Bloodsworn Retribution sucks five kinds of horse anus.

Speaker For the Past Shaman archetype is fucking boss, though, especially if you're using a UMD'd Ring of Revelation. You miss out on the wandering spirit class feature but in return get a bunch of useful always-on-the-list spells from the Ancestor and Time mysteries.

Ain't picking up something like the slumber hex better than a metamagic feat?

So, it seems shaman is pretty good, but does it work better for my Sage idea than a cleric? I've pretty much discarded using oracle because of delayed spell access and limited spells known, which kinda pale in comparison to spells on time and knowing all the spells on your list.

But then, which do I want for my cross-list Sage caster, a Cleric or a Shaman, and why?

If this is for the level 3-8 campaign mentioned above, you want something which will come online earlier than the 7th level which is the earliest you can get Dreamed Secrets.

OTOH the shaman needs to choose whether they will rely entirely on wizard spells to attack (high int, mediocre wis) or use entirely shaman spells (vice versa). Keeping both high isn't really a great idea, since you'll need cha as well. Cleric doesn't have that problem.

No, this isn't as of yet for a specific campaign, just something I wanted to toy with, though if a new campaign begins for my group, I'll probably play it. Given my group's method of stat generation, though (free guaranteed 18 and 8, roll 4d6 drop lowest for other four, assign as desired), i'd still prefer less MAD if possible, but ultimately I just want one of those casters who knows their entire lists in pathfinder (namely, cleric, druid, or shaman) and is able to merge the wizard list onto theirs as much as possible.

I'm rebuilding one of the characters in my Pathfinderized Ptolus campaign.

The original build was a Bannerman cavalier - the idea was to have a ground-based, heavy-armor fighter with a strong "destined hero" theme. The character is a dwarf, using Dwarven Waraxe and Shield. The character is now level 5.

The main issue is a lack of offensive punch - while the player is okay with being more of a defensive tank (and as the DM, I'm willing to throw a few extra attacks his way even though it'd be more efficient to direct them elsewhere, in the interest of good-fun-was-had-by-all), his damage hasn't really kept up.

Part of that is poor feat allocation (the player just doesn't use the Tactician ability, yet he has the feat that gives more uses of it) - that's an easy switch to Power Attack.

But beyond that, I'm a bit uncertain. One option would be to take the couple of feats and traits to turn the character into an axe-and-shield TWF that still gets the shield bonus to AC. The Gendarme archetype would work best there.

Alternately, should I be recommending other classes instead? The player (and I) would prefer that the character identity remain mostly unchanged, so suggestion to make him a wizard instead won't be very helpful

Also, the campaign is eventually going to reach the high levels. As the DM, I'm perfectly willing to hand out artefact axes as needed (and the players are entirely willing to forgo chain-binding efreets and such), but I figure Leadership for a neat mount should be able to keep the cavalier relevant for a while. Right or wrong?

What's the rest of the party like? In other words, what's the yardstick you're building towards? He'll have a much shorter shelf-life in a party full of efficiently-built casters than e.g one with a Rogue, a Bard and an Eldritch Knight.

The rest of the party is Ranger, Bard, Wizard, Cleric.

The Cleric's perfectly willing to play "tolerable fighter with a side of party buffer/healbot", the Wizard isn't into optimization all that much and likes the blaster role in general. The bard is more of an optimizer and the Ranger is the most qualified at optimization.

Also worth nothing - everybody at the table is into "having a good time" over anything else. Nobody will complain if I ask anyone to turn down the antics a bit or to avoid tactics that render other characters irrelevant. But I want to avoid having to make the request if possible, because awesome-and-fun is better than less-awesome-but-still-fun.

Oh, and I'm not opposed to re-rebuilding the character further down the line - if there's a good build for Cavalier 5-12 it'd be fine.

Sounds to me that the best and least intrusive choice would be to hand out a nice scaling artifact weapon and leadership for a mount.

The Vanguard Slayer archetype with Leadership for a mount would handle it pretty well.

Comes with good skills, solid accuracy, and an untyped attack/damage buff instead of a morale based one. Tactician is still present but not as heavily emphasized, it gets better saves, and aside from Tactician its offense runs all day instead of being tied to challenges only.

So, how do the Storm Druid and Urban Druid archetypes measure up? Are they crap? Is either one worth taking? Can one be a druid without being a hippie?

Well, Urban Druid seems like crap. You lose the animal companion and delay Wild Shape until level 8, with the penalty to it.

Urban Druid looks like it might be useful for an urban, intrigue based game. Not so much for dungeon crawling.

Storm Druid could be useful in theory for a mist assassin type, hiding in fog clouds and striking from total concealment inside them. Problem: that makes the rest of the party suck unless they've invested in means of seeing thru fog too. Using it to blast with lightning doesn't sound smart, you don't have a sorcerer's advantages to doing so or the sorc/wiz spell list and call lightning etc are not impressive.

You don't have to play a standard druid as a hippy though. If you need a mechanical excuse to not do so, take the monkey domain & maybe Plains Druid and you're a travelling trickster. Or take Eagle Shaman & the nobility domain, and you're an aristocrat with a bond to the land and a divine right to rule.

Archmage Joda wrote:So, how do the Storm Druid and Urban Druid archetypes measure up? Are they crap? Is either one worth taking? Can one be a druid without being a hippie?

I'm not sure why you need an archetype in order to not be a hippie.

The best druid archetype is the Menhir Savant. Exchanging Alter Self for Ethereal Jaunt? Sounds like a fair trade to me.

I'm a huge fan of Nature Fang. It's everything the ranger class should've been.

Archmage Joda wrote:But then, which do I want for my cross-list Sage caster, a Cleric or a Shaman, and why?

Frankly, I don't see why you want to be a cross-class list caster so badly. It's not like 3.5E D&D where playing pre-blasphemy blaster clerics required a bunch of primping and scraping up expansion options like the Illusion domain and Doomtide. Unless you have a grab-bag of specific spells in mind like dominate person + contingency + shadow conjuration + planar binding or you want to abuse a specific spell, I think that both the shaman and cleric lists are more than sufficient to replicate the big casting tricks of a wizard. Hell, with stuff like the Ecclesitheurge cleric available I'm struggling to come up with a reason as to why you should play a wizard over a cleric.

ishy wrote:Ain't picking up something like the slumber hex better than a metamagic feat?

Maybe? It's quite usable, but I don't see how it's better than Dazing/Extend/Quicken/Heighten/etc. spell. I mean, it's not super-good for horde mobs, mindless/sleep-resistant critters, or BBEGs backed up by little guys. You basically use it like Hold Person/Deep Slumber/etc., but Shamans have ways to broadly replicate that game effect without dipping into their stock of hexes.

The not being a hippie thing was meant as more of a joke, a not serious query to be the tail node in that list of questions. But I thank you all for the helpful replies nevertheless.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

ishy wrote:Ain't picking up something like the slumber hex better than a metamagic feat?

Maybe? It's quite usable, but I don't see how it's better than Dazing/Extend/Quicken/Heighten/etc. spell. I mean, it's not super-good for horde mobs, mindless/sleep-resistant critters, or BBEGs backed up by little guys. You basically use it like Hold Person/Deep Slumber/etc., but Shamans have ways to broadly replicate that game effect without dipping into their stock of hexes.

Really? I get that save or die effect aren't necessarily the best solution, but having a high DC win condition seems to be a better use than every metamagic feat (except maybe quicken).

While hold person and sleep/deep slumber have uses, they are all more limited by minions and artificial constraints (and save every round in hold person's case). I actually cannot think of a better save or die at any level than the slumber hex.

Am I missing something?

You're not missing anything Scriviner, but sometimes you run into something sleep immune or you don't need a save or die. Or like Lago said, you run into a mob.

Slumber is the best single target SoD in the game, but there are times when that's not the right option.