The Gaming Den

Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand and Craft Staff all spring to mind as ways of making your domain spells go further.

Also, you're a prepared caster. Use Pearls of Power.

Pearls of Power are probably your best bet for more domain spells per day, and this number will let you switch what you have prepped. Have you considered the Madness domain? Vision of Madness is a very strong granted power, and the spells aren't shabby either. If you go Madness and Darkness you've covered against enemies with minds or eyes (Eyes of Darkness is also very nice paired with Deeper Darkness). As a bonus, they're both quite thematic with Dreamed Secrets.

It was probably discussed before, but I've no clue where in the past 200 pages, so I would like to ask: how worthwhile is summoning in pathfinder, particularly for a wizard? Good enough to use feats to specialize in it? Worth doing even without feats? A waste of good resources?

Archmage Joda wrote:It was probably discussed before, but I've no clue where in the past 200 pages, so I would like to ask: how worthwhile is summoning in pathfinder, particularly for a wizard? Good enough to use feats to specialize in it? Worth doing even without feats? A waste of good resources?

IMO, you absolutely need standard-action summoning to mess around with it.

Archmage Joda wrote:It was probably discussed before, but I've no clue where in the past 200 pages, so I would like to ask: how worthwhile is summoning in pathfinder, particularly for a wizard?

Compared to 3.5E, the low level summoning lists are worse and the higher level summoning lists are slightly better.

Effortless Trickery is a really fun feat. Permanent Major Image is pretty awesome if your MC is generous with illusions and you're not facing true seeing/blindsensing enemies all the time. Also, it's fun whipping out illusions in casual conversation or for day to day things.

Spells compatible with it:

Illusions
1: Silent Image
2: Hypnotic Pattern, Minor Image, Planetarium
3: Display Aversion, Loathsome Veil, Major Image
4: Rainbow Pattern
5: Mirage Arcana
6: Veil
8: Scintillating Pattern

Shadow Conjuration
2: Summon Swarm
3: Rain of Frogs

Greater Shadow Conjuration
5: Geyser

Shadow Evocation
0: Scoop
3: Firestream
4: Wall of Fire

Greater Shadow Evocation
5: Wall of Sound
6: Path of the Winds

Just so you know, while Dreamed Secrets is great for getting you the Mystic Theurge minus the suck you so crave, it's very difficult for most clerics to use. All of the Outer Gods/Great Old Ones are chaotic evil except for Azathoth, who is CN. And while there are plenty of mechanical incentives to worship a non-LE evil god in Pathfinder, most DMs tend to be of the 'oh hell no' type no matter what kind of assurances or justifications you give. That said, if you can swing it Azathoth hands out very nice domains (Void/Dark Tapestry + Madness, hells yeah) and you can still play a True Neutral or Chaotic Good cleric devoted to the deity. And hell, Azathoth is specifically called out as not giving a fuck what its clerics do.

I think a Shaman or a Druid could use the feat better, really. That way you could make up some bullshit about being a cult infiltrator or watcher or cursed birth or something.

hogarth wrote:

Archmage Joda wrote:It was probably discussed before, but I've no clue where in the past 200 pages, so I would like to ask: how worthwhile is summoning in pathfinder, particularly for a wizard?

Compared to 3.5E, the low level summoning lists are worse and the higher level summoning lists are slightly better.

This right here. I've been talking up summoning a lot but keep in mind that it only starts to get battle-swingingly good at around SMIV because that's when you can summon alignment-templated critters with at least 5 HD. The brutal effectiveness of a *-lion pouncing for five attacks at 1d4+10-12 damage *-tiger pouncing for five attacks at 1d8+12-14 + grab while backing that ass up with DR 5/alignment is hard to understate.

That said, Summon Monster III is still pretty usable. You can always summon a dretch for a free casting of stinking cloud (at a sadly low DC 13 fort) and a bag of hit points. And Lantern Archons are pretty okay if you tell them to hang behind the party tank with their Aura of Menace and continually zap them with the Aid spell.

I understand that this game is THOROUGHLY PREJUDICED to full casters, even more so than 3.5 and has been correctly pilloried as "Casterfinder" (find a full caster and play it, win), but what would you suggest to people who want to play a 3/4 caster like an Alchemist, Bard or Inquisitor? What would you tell somebody who was really committed to playing a Fighter to do so he wouldn't suck the big one in his party? Is that even possible?

Just as a thought, assume 32 point buy, 10th level, 70 grand to spend, every Pathfinder thing permissible. What do you tell a Ranger to do? What do you tell a Paladin to do?

Friends don't let friends play fighter. Or ranger. Or paladin. If they're really, really committed the best you can do is hope they won't notice how much they suck and/or that everyone else in the party makes just as terrible decisions.

Insomniac wrote:I understand that this game is THOROUGHLY PREJUDICED to full casters, even more so than 3.5 and has been correctly pilloried as "Casterfinder" (find a full caster and play it, win), but what would you suggest to people who want to play a 3/4 caster like an Alchemist, Bard or Inquisitor? What would you tell somebody who was really committed to playing a Fighter to do so he wouldn't suck the big one in his party? Is that even possible?

Just as a thought, assume 32 point buy, 10th level, 70 grand to spend, every Pathfinder thing permissible. What do you tell a Ranger to do? What do you tell a Paladin to do?

Alchemist, Bard and Inquisitor can rock 10th alright: Alchemist goes Beastmorph Vivisectionist (or takes Fast Bombs and is a Flasked Avenger with spells), Bard has a couple of options I don't remember, and Inquisitor has Sacred Huntsmaster. Ranger goes Guide, Pally goes Oath of Vengeance. As long as you have spells in some capacity, you can still play. The full casters will make you feel like shit unless you play to your classes' strengths, and even then they'll probably make you feel like shit.

I'd tell the Fighter to go Barbarian for Pounce at 10th and some other random bullshit Rage Powers.

EVERY Pathfinder thing? Get them to play a monster. Some of them are crazily powerful, good enough to keep a player on par with a caster for quite a while. I have only looked at monsters CR 4 and below because that was the limit for the only Pathfinder game I have played in, but here are a couple thoughts:

Terror Pod-Spawned 9-Headed Hydra 7 / Fighter 4. Note that pod-spawned counts as -1 CR since you have PC levels, and one of the fighter levels was free. 13 HD, fast healing 18, 18 attacks, pounce, lots of immunities, and eight feats to play with. That's a great big stupid fighter.

Terror Shadetouched Shadow 4 / Enlightened Paladin 8. Two freebie paladin levels. Infinite shadow minions. You can pump your Charisma for massive HP, AC, saves, and DC on your fear aura. Even if your army of minions fail you can just flail away with your incorporeal claws until whatever it is you are facing dies because you are nigh-invulnerable. You are also utterly silent and can walk through doors so you make a great scout. If the party mage casts Invisibility on you, you are completely undetectable by mundane means. Also, you can totally pretend that you are a Diablo-style angel.

I like antipaladin for the free succubus girlfriend at level 11. Is that bad?

I'm pretty sure a succubus girlfriend is better than an entire level 11 antipaladin.

"That's Larry. Larry is a useless douche, but we bring him along because his girlfriend can cast charm monster and doesn't like wearing clothes."

That makes me sad, because I want to play a badass dark lord type and i'm overshadowed by my own class feature. But hey, better than fighters, right?

You could also just play as the Succubus girlfriend. As pixels said in PF playing monsters is the business so in a 10th level game a Succubus would have 4 levels they could use to jump straight into prestige classes and also do cool stuff like Quicken their 10d6 damage Vampiric touches. Other great monsters to play are Naga's, Lamia Matriarch's, Lammasu's, and Aranea's.

Alchemists are fine. If someone wants to play one you can just let them and everything will be ok. They can nova super hard and do tons of irresistible force damage or if you pick the vivisectionist archetype you can be everything the Rogue always wanted to be. A Ranger could be a Summoner who shot arrows and cast spells into people while his WoW style nature beast murdered them at his command. A Paladin could be a Synthesist Summoner who channels the power of his god into himself becoming full of holy power. His stats would go through the roof, he would get angelic wings and skin hard as metal and fight people with the power of celestial might. Honestly a Summoner would make a perfect ranger and a Synth Summoner would make a great Paladin that would be totally thematic. Summoner's are the best.

Also, the succubus girlfriend can just be the dark lord. Two levels in antipaladin gets you heavy armor proficiency and a charisma bonus to your saving throws, so you can run around in sinister full plate having great saves using kickass spell-likes. It might not be the best choice, but it is thematically awesome.

Insomniac wrote:I understand that this game is THOROUGHLY PREJUDICED to full casters, even more so than 3.5 and has been correctly pilloried as "Casterfinder" (find a full caster and play it, win), but what would you suggest to people who want to play a 3/4 caster like an Alchemist, Bard or Inquisitor? What would you tell somebody who was really committed to playing a Fighter to do so he wouldn't suck the big one in his party? Is that even possible?

Just as a thought, assume 32 point buy, 10th level, 70 grand to spend, every Pathfinder thing permissible. What do you tell a Ranger to do? What do you tell a Paladin to do?

For a ranger - grab the feats to accelerate rate of fire as an archer and get a wand of instant enemy so those shots count, and a goz mask so that fog doesn't shut you down. Also take the boon companion feat and get an animal companion you can ride so you have mobility (full attack with a bow while riding works just fine), which is your fix for wind wall.

I'm less familiar with paladins. Apparently they make decent mounted chargers. Alternately Irori's paladin archetype looks like it gets around some of the more awkward aspects of the paladin (smite anything, not smite evil), and with improved unarmed strike it's basically inviting you to invest in style feats.

DSMatticus wrote:I'm pretty sure a succubus girlfriend is better than an entire level 11 antipaladin.

"That's Larry. Larry is a useless douche, but we bring him along because his girlfriend can cast charm monster and doesn't like wearing clothes."

So with the monsters, if they already inherently cast as X level and you take more levels, your casting increases? So a Lillend would cast as an 11th level Bard?

And lets look at this a bit...

"Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally."

So by 16th level in this example, would the Lillend really be a Lillend Bard 12 casting as a 19th level Bard? Why would anybody ever play a straight bard?

Or the mentioned Aranea thing. So when everybody is CR 10, you're casting as a 13th level sorcerer that had a +6 racial modifier to its Charisma? That seems pretty freaking crazy.

Silent Wayfarer wrote:That makes me sad, because I want to play a badass dark lord type and i'm overshadowed by my own class feature.

Play a non-good cleric that has a domain that gives out planar binding and/or see if you can use the Thaumaturgist PrC from 3.5E. There's your Dark Lord.

Orca wrote:Just as a thought, assume 32 point buy, 10th level, 70 grand to spend, every Pathfinder thing permissible. What do you tell a Ranger to do?

Tell the Ranger to play a Nature Fang druid or to piss off, the party doesn't need basket weavers.

Insomniac wrote:Or the mentioned Aranea thing. So when everybody is CR 10, you're casting as a 13th level sorcerer that had a +6 racial modifier to its Charisma? That seems pretty freaking crazy.

Monsters aren't even close to balanced in Pathfinder and despite (or because of) the potential cheese I've never seen anyone try to do that shit at an actual game. It's like trying to show up to the table with a 3.0E Maho Tsukai; sure, you might get away with it, but it's more likely you're going to get a directive to remake your character and permanent suspicion for the rest of the campaign.

So, just out of my own morbid curiosity, is it ever worth it to be sword and board style in melee?

Archmage Joda wrote:So, just out of my own morbid curiosity, is it ever worth it to be sword and board style in melee?

Yes, if you use your shield as your primary weapon.
No, if you're just going to cut your damage output by a third in exchange for some AC.

Archmage Joda wrote:So, just out of my own morbid curiosity, is it ever worth it to be sword and board style in melee?

If you're willing to tolerate goofiness in your fighting style, consider going board and board (dual shield fighting). Two heavy spiked shields, the Shield Master, TWF and the Bashing Finish feats. Shield Master removes the hefty attack penalties TWF inflict for not having 2 light weapons and lets you dump your shield spike enhancement bonus into AC or saves with the right enhancements. Bashing Finish follows up any crit from a shield bash into a free action attack. If you want to be cheesy, Shield Master's text is:

You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon.

So PA/Combat Expertise for max on each blow, consequence free.

This is class independent but the feats all require BAB 11+. I would personally play a holy vindicator cleric with this, then use Versatile Channelling and Vindicator's Shield to power up one shield with a profane bonus to AC and the other with a sacred bonus to AC, while jizzing Magic Vestment/Weapon all over my gear to save golds on enchants.

For another installment of worth it or not, is it worth it to play a sorcerer at any point? Like, can a sorcerer do well enough in place of a wizard in a party, or is it still just completely the wizard's red-headed stepchild?

It might also be worth wearing a shield if you gain extra arms.
Say if you're a melee alchemist and get the vestigial arm discovery (extra arm, but no extra attacks), a shield might be good.

A sorcerer can be good, if you're playing in a game with limited spell access, you might have more spells known than the wizard. Getting your spells a level late really sucks as usual, but some bloodlines give you a rad power.