The Gaming Den

I consider myself pretty good at "un-optimized." But I am sure that there are many who are far better experts than I am. Mostly because I tend to at wost be generally reasonable. I also don't do too much multi-classing.

On the other hand, if a character suddenly encounters something different then he adapts to that different. I've had a bard that went from the big city to the deep woods. He eventually started adding ranger levels, but only three of them before he went back to barding. I think he finally was Bard 10, Ranger 3 before he had inter party conflicts and followed someone through a gate.

You can tell my style of un-optimized when I get a mid level character and then ask the question, "OK so what PrC can he quaify for?" The answer is always, "Not a damn thing."

...Being as I've never used a PrC from one of the splatbooks (I don't own any of them)...

I never understood the class == flavour argument, anyhow. Classes give you background, but if your guy is a kickass fighter (small s fighter) then you don't need Fighter on his character sheet unless it lets you kick ass in the way you want.

Just because Batman studied in the Far East doesn't mean he took Monk; he may have just taken Feats.

-Crissa

Un-optimized Wizard:
Wizard - not specialized, no substitution levels. Human. Weasel familiar (they can fetch the keys!)
1 - Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (spells you like casting alot of that have saves... not evocation)
3 - Extend Spell
5 - Energy Substitution (for that kickass fireball)
6 - bonus metamagic/item creation - Craft wondrous item (headbands of itellect are all the rage, right?)
9 - Greater Spell focus (whatever you took Spell focus in)
10 - Quicken Spell (bonus)

This build will STILL put most fighters to shame, and it is as generic as they could possibly come. It will go first most combats, be able to have better magical items, cast all spells and have decent saves. You keep an Energy Sub(sonic) Scorching Ray in backup, and are defended by your Extended Mage Armor (lasts all day!). Maybe take Craft Wand at a later level? Immense flexibility, decent damage, enchantment and divination, can't go very wrong even, just don't pick more than 1 of the same spell (this will prevent character from loading up on energy substituted fireballs like a noob).

You know why this build puts fighters to shame? I can sum it up in one spell. Teleport. The fighter walks, the wizard teleports. Nothing is more shameful than getting to town after the battle is over.

Wait... there are non-specialized Wizards out there?

When did this happen?

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1180898989[/unixtime]]It's not a blatant lie if that's the way they play the game, though.

And here I was thinking that such impassioned statements about high level play came exclusively from people who have never seen games other than one-shots past level 12.

'Sides, given the clear assertive implications, the excessive parsing of nature of falsity seems a bit much even as an exercise in apologia.

'Cause, for serious, when a discussion about class balance is taking place and someone mentions how his pre-epic fighter has taken down elder gods in his current game as a point (which I have indeed seen) "lie" is close enough of a term for me.

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1181252217[/unixtime]]I never understood the class == flavour argument, anyhow.

I think I understand it, but I often disagree with what is flavor. If you consider the batman argument, a lot depends on what the flavor of "monk" is. For me it has nothing whatsoever to do with "eastern." The question would be, to me, in his travels in the east was there any time when it would have been reasonable and logical for him to study an specialized unarmed style of fighting with mythical elements attached to it. Probably not.

If anything I really think that when you look at flavor you put a damper on really odd class changes for no apparent reason. The fact is that the four classes have a whole lot of "flavor" that gets thrown under the carpet of character creation. But they suddenly stick out if you take a first level in the middle of your adventuring career.

Paladins are generally thought of as being special and called, how did you suddenly get "special?"

Sorcerers are generally thought to be special endowed with a special bloodline or something. How did you suddenly realize you were special or how did you suddenly become special.

Wizards are assumed to have gone through lots of knerdish study. When did you suddenly find the time to be a bookworm in the middle of the last dungeon we went through.

Barbarians are special also. So what was your Bruce Banner moment that allowed you to start becomming the "Incredible Hulk?"

It's not that you can't, but that flavor generally prefers these things to happen as a result of the conditions that are mostly beyond the individual player's control; the collective campaign of both the DM and all the players.

SunTzuWarmaster at [unixtime wrote:1181265839[/unixtime]]You keep an Energy Sub(sonic) Scorching Ray in backup, ...

Sonic is no longer a valid energy choice for Energy Substitution.

And I'll stick by my assertion that people here play the game differently than the majority of others.

I don't even touch Rays as a wizard and I skipped energy substitution because as a wizard, I can just have different spells.

I've seen Sorcerors that out fought by the book fighters, but a Cleric or Wizard has so many options just in the PHB that it's silly.

-Crissa

It's not even hard to make a sorcerer that's a better fighter than a fighter.

Yes, I know that any non-specialized wizard should at the very least take an Elven substitution level to have a floating highest-level spell slot in exchange for a familiar.

Sorry about the sonic substitution, didn't know about that, but it has luckily never come up (I don't take energy substitution).

For some reason, energy substitution always looks good to newcomers I've seen play wizards... not sure why.

Because they don't yet understand how Wizards work.

This is insanely ridiculous. For those who don't know 40k WSYWIG terain is a part of the rules.

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1181375879[/unixtime]]This is insanely ridiculous. For those who don't know 40k WSYWIG terain is a part of the rules.

Sooo...The 40K rules being preposterously stupid causes the potential for attempted rules abuses?

Color me shocked.

No. The point is that people are seriously claiming that the rules being referred to don't exist. Even the page reference getting posted didn't help.

The fact that the rules in question aren't good is a side issue.

Real quick:

If your modeling for advantage in game, your being exploitative.

Seriously, why else would you even bother to model except for tactical advantage? If the model's physicality ceases to be an issue, can't you just use cardboard chits with numbers on them and push them around the gaming table and say you're playing WH40K?

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1181377714[/unixtime]]No. The point is that people are seriously claiming that the rules being referred to don't exist. Even the page reference getting posted didn't help.

Sorry. I hadn't gotten to page 3 yet.

Hey_I_Can_Chan at [unixtime wrote:1181379289[/unixtime]]If the model's physicality ceases to be an issue, can't you just use cardboard chits with numbers on them and push them around the gaming table and say you're playing WH40K?

You could do the same with chess. People like having models, thats totally enough reason to build, paint and convert stuff. Ideally modeling something differently shouldn't effect the outcome of the game. As soon as it does it becomes a competitive aspect.

God WYSIWYG is an awful rule when a dude is like 7 euros. Just let me use my Legos dammit!

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Naruto_RPG_P ... br][br]The admin is so infuriating. Does he not understand the question I asked.

You could do the same with chess.

Yes, exactly, and that would be easy. But chess doesn't use terrain, and chess pieces don't differ in abilities depending on how they look.

People like having models, thats totally enough reason to build, paint and convert stuff.

I'm good with the masturbatory nature of it: "I model not because of what things mean but out of the sheer joy it brings me." That's fine.

Ideally modeling something differently shouldn't effect the outcome of the game. As soon as it does it becomes a competitive aspect.

Um. If you're playing WH40K, aren't you already competing? I mean, really, this just sounds like the way it should be, and, honestly, the way I always assumed it was.

The admin is so infuriating. Does he not understand the question I asked.

I believe the intent is that people do not know the rules. You're not supposed to make characters based on the mechanics, you're supposed to write down numbers based on how they make you feel.

Then you try to do thingsa and the DM laughs at you for attempting actions way outside your skill level. Then you aren't allowed to argue with the DM.

-Username17

the_taken at [unixtime wrote:1181422166[/unixtime]]http://z6.invisionfree.com/Naruto_RPG_P ... br][br]The admin is so infuriating. Does he not understand the question I asked.

I think the answer lies in the words "Naruto RPG Portal"

Select numbers that are all OVER NINE THOUSAND!

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1181426577[/unixtime]]

The admin is so infuriating. Does he not understand the question I asked.

I believe the intent is that people do not know the rules. You're not supposed to make characters based on the mechanics, you're supposed to write down numbers based on how they make you feel.

Then you try to do thingsa and the DM laughs at you for attempting actions way outside your skill level. Then you aren't allowed to argue with the DM.

-Username17

What type of game is that? I can't see the fun in it.

Is it like playing competitive pocket monsters without knowing how the DCs and base numbers are arranged?

Hey_I_Can_Chan at [unixtime wrote:1181424506[/unixtime]]Um. If you're playing WH40K, aren't you already competing? I mean, really, this just sounds like the way it should be, and, honestly, the way I always assumed it was.

No, the idea is that you can convert/scratch build stuff to suit personal taste. Its flat out impossible for the rules to support that when the exact size and shape of a model is important to the rules.

They have to pick one of:

1) Model it however you want. Terrain and LoS are abstract.

2) Model it this way only. Terrain and LoS are based on the model.