The Gaming Den

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I think the CR-first system only has an advantage when you don't mind paring up ropers with ogre magi.

I don't mind at all. The most amazing combinations can come about that way. Perhaps the ogres have a tame roper in the entrance cavern to their underground village, and a shift of magi and archers ready to rain death on intruders as the roper grabs them and drains their strength. Or in a big ogre city maybe the ogre police put ropers on carts and use them to subdue miscreants.

Since all of the flavor text is in a different chapter, unless you throw the players something way out of their level range the stat blocks for all the monsters would be near each other. Even if they are spread over a couple CR, a couple pages either way is a lot better than bouncing back and forth between Aboleth and Giant Squid.

Additionally, unless a monster has some sort of absurdly iconic power (like an antimagic eye), you can usually use a stat block and call it something else and the players won't care and they might not even know.

It's not a roper, it's an orcish whipmaster, obviously.

I found out something fascinating abut 4e books being out of print.

With the exception of the Core-iest of Core Books (PHB1, DMG1, MM1, PHB2), none of the 4e books enjoyed a second printing. Apparently every copy of Open Grave that has ever been bought or is available in stores or will ever be bought in the future was part of the first initial printing. WotC simply has not been going back to reprint materials.

This means that any material, like the introductory box set from year 1, that is no longer available and out of print, is like that because it sold out entirely. Meaning that it either did really well or that it had a small number of copies made in the first place. If you can still buy a book that isn't new or the PHB2, it means that WotC overestimated the consumer demand for that product.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:I found out something fascinating abut 4e books being out of print.

With the exception of the Core-iest of Core Books (PHB1, DMG1, MM1, PHB2), none of the 4e books enjoyed a second printing. Apparently every copy of Open Grave that has ever been bought or is available in stores or will ever be bought in the future was part of the first initial printing. WotC simply has not been going back to reprint materials.

This means that any material, like the introductory box set from year 1, that is no longer available and out of print, is like that because it sold out entirely. Meaning that it either did really well or that it had a small number of copies made in the first place. If you can still buy a book that isn't new or the PHB2, it means that WotC overestimated the consumer demand for that product.

-Username17

Isn't this standard? As far as I know, reprinting a splatbook is the exception rather than the rule.

Doom wrote:
This isn't going to happen. It's all about control of the IP, and anything less than a stranglehold is unacceptible. A friend of mine wrote a few D&D novels, and the rules he had to write under made it essentially impossible to do anything but churn out pablum. The specs were something along the lines of no children, no blood, very limited violence, must model something specific to game rules at least 1/chapter, no new characters other than the one specifically permitted by the contract, must include certain established characters, established characters must perform to established guidelines (subject to approval), established characters cannot be given any new traits...it just went on and on.

How much rope would D&D fiction writers need in order to produce quality work while still reinforcing the brand? It's the responsibility of the initial writers to produce a campaign setting with adventures worth writing in. So that's 'taken' care of.


But I can sort of see where they're coming from about trying to stifle character development. Now while it would be really fuckawesome if Drizz't traded in his panther and swords for a flaming battleaxe and a combination golem/chariot, the fact is that it creates confusion between other writers for what's going on.

But that's okay. Comic books do it all of the time. You just need some coordination between the authors and someone to ensure that things don't get out of hand. I think it's perfectly okay if Wulfgar decides to pick up some arcane magic and become a Rage Mage, but it's not okay if Wulfgar suddenly loses all of his magic in the next novel because the follow-up author didn't get the memo. You probably also want to prevent Wulfgar from becoming an Archmage, too.

But like I said earlier, the D&D campaign setting is the loss-leader and the novels are your moneymaker. While protecting the brand via novels will retroactively strengthen both the TTRPG and associated properties (such as RPGs), if there a conflict between what's good for a TTRPG and what's good for the novel/comic/video game... the adaptation should get priority.

hogarth wrote: Isn't this standard? As far as I know, reprinting a splatbook is the exception rather than the rule.

It depends upon the book and the company. Street Magic was printed several times, and even Runner's Companion had a few printings.

On the other hand, 4e books had a marketing gimmick going at the beginning where they made the first printing too small so that they "sold out" and had to do another printing. As far as I know, the last book to do that was the PHB 2. And there weren't any 3rd printings, because apparently you can't order a copy of the PHB1 from distributors any more.

What that means is that a book being "out of print" has actually nothing to do with whether it was a good seller or not. The operative question is how long it took to be unavailable. If it took a short time, it was a god seller relative to what WotC was expecting. If it took a long time, it may have done badly, at least relative to expectations. If it took long enough, books may have even been destroyed for tax purposes or something.

But the simple fact that a book or box set is no longer available does not mean inherently that it did well or poorly. The WotC strategy is to simply print new books rather than revisit old titles (successful or not). So there's no correlation between print status and sales totals.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:
What that means is that a book being "out of print" has actually nothing to do with whether it was a good seller or not. The operative question is how long it took to be unavailable. If it took a short time, it was a god seller relative to what WotC was expecting. If it took a long time, it may have done badly, at least relative to expectations. If it took long enough, books may have even been destroyed for tax purposes or something.

But the simple fact that a book or box set is no longer available does not mean inherently that it did well or poorly. The WotC strategy is to simply print new books rather than revisit old titles (successful or not). So there's no correlation between print status and sales totals.

-Username17

Again, I thought this was bog-standard policy for splatbooks.

I'm sure you know this, but for the benefit of other people reading this thread -- publishers don't like to reprint books. Ideally, a publisher would like to know exactly how many copies they'll be able to sell and print exactly that many, because two small print runs are more expensive than one big one.

I think someone has linked to it before (possibly me), but here's Paizo's thoughts on why they don't like to reprint things.

Game books sell slowly enough that storage costs eventually eat any possible gain by big printings. So it makes sense to reprint the PHB or DMG every two years, because that keeps you from having to pay to have it stored somewhere, and you have space for new books.

Printing old books likewise has a bonus - they don't need new writers, new art, etc; one-time costs which should overshadow the difference between printing it then and now. Also, you get to fix typos you missed.

Yes, you want to print nearly as many books as you expect to sell. But that's limited by time - if you expect to sell 100,000 books over five years, it might make more sense to print what you expect to sell this year, then print a second printing later.

It's printing cost now + storage + price of credit vs printing cost later. Storage and credit are small, but they add up quickly, especially over time.

-Crissa

Crissa wrote:Yes, you want to print nearly as many books as you expect to sell. But that's limited by time - if you expect to sell 100,000 books over five years, it might make more sense to print what you expect to sell this year, then print a second printing later.

It makes even more sense to print 70,000 copies of book #1 and print 70,000 copies of book #2 (that covers similar, but not identical, subject matter) 2.5 years later. Because then you get people buying both books.

Actually, warehousing costs a lot. It makes a lot of sense to print in multiple batches. On demand production has huge advantages. Just because one batch printing costs less than two batch printing does not mean that it costs less to your business to print in one batch. Warehousing for however many months can very easily eat away all the savings.

That's why SR books are printed in stages.

-Username17

Actually, you always get a boost on any #1 in a series, and a coincidental drop-off. If there's anything required in one that is not in number two, you're actually going to hurt your sales of number two by not having number one available.

Basically, never reprinting is a magazine model, and it only works with a target churn and replaceable material. It's what Marvel does with their comics.

Reprinting as needed and using prediction only to save money is how DC does their comics. It means being able to use backorders as secondary cash. There's no evidence that it undermines sales of subsequent product.

-Crissa

FrankTrollman wrote:Actually, warehousing costs a lot. It makes a lot of sense to print in multiple batches.

Frankly, I believe Vic Wertz's experience over yours.

FrankTrollman wrote:On demand production has huge advantages.

On-demand printing is a totally different issue.

Crissa wrote:Actually, you always get a boost on any #1 in a series, and a coincidental drop-off. If there's anything required in one that is not in number two, you're actually going to hurt your sales of number two by not having number one available.

And you get a drop-off selling the same splatbook for more than 6 months (say); after that, sales slow down to a trickle.

hogarth: You do realize that Vic Wertz's logic is based partly on some factors unique to Paizo products. Specifically, they have their little subscription program, which allows them to know that they will sell a certain number of copies of any new product. Thus, they know that a certain number of copies of the first print run will not have to be warehoused at all. They lose that advantage on subsequent print runs, as the subscribers already have the product. Other publishers don't have this unique set of circumstances in place.

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:hogarth: You do realize that Vic Wertz's logic is based partly on some factors unique to Paizo products. Specifically, they have their little subscription program, which allows them to know that they will sell a certain number of copies of any new product.

Sure, and other companies have to estimate that number. I don't think it necessarily changes the underlying economics -- reprinting a book while demand is rapidly declining is not ideal, and reprinting a book while demand is still high just means that you misunderestimated your initial print run.

On the other hand, I believe they do own their own warehouse, so that might be a factor.

hogarth wrote:Frankly, I believe Vic Wertz's experience over yours.

Frankly, I don't. He's just one guy, who may or may not be wrong - being wrong doesn't kill you in this industry. The CEO of Marvel nearly killed their comics division a few years ago by constantly under-filling orders with a similar screed about reprinting.

Just because you own or operate a business doesn't make you an expert. It makes you a data point.

-Crissa

PS: It's been possible to subscribe to DC Comics for decades. So even that's hardly an excuse, as well.

Pixels wrote:Since all of the flavor text is in a different chapter, unless you throw the players something way out of their level range the stat blocks for all the monsters would be near each other. Even if they are spread over a couple CR, a couple pages either way is a lot better than bouncing back and forth between Aboleth and Giant Squid.

Hmm. Well, after all maybe putting monsters together by CR is a good idea after all. Especially if you could put together an unexpected encounter just by rolling dice 4 times once you get to the general area.

Also, I personally hate having to earmark several pages or write/print out monster stats ahead of time so I can save space on the table. I can see the advantage of being able to keep a monster manual on the same page.

hogarth wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:Actually, warehousing costs a lot. It makes a lot of sense to print in multiple batches.

Frankly, I believe Vic Wertz's experience over yours.

Except that the Pathinder books are in their third printings. Granted the jump from the first to the second was a marketing stunt around release time, but the fact that they went to a third means that Vic Wertz does not believe his own bullshit.

End.

-Username17

I've noticed that gamers really love playing Pretty Princess Dressup with their characters. Especially the boys.

That said, I think bundling the DDI with some kind of Character Visualizer application would be a great idea. I bet you could get people excited about playing your game RIGHT NOW if you let them build their character with all of these backgrounds and contacts and powers and then gave them a decent-looking 3D model that they spent an hour or so decorating.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:decent-looking 3D model

Considering that video game designers spend a god-awful amount of time and money on 3-D human models, I'm less than hopeful that a penny-ante game company could do it. And Poser stuff looks like shit.

A more reasonable and visually appealing option would be to code a solid 2-D paper doll app with parts that can be stretched and distorted to fit the look a player wants. I'd set it up as a sort of wiki-thing where the enthusiastic paying community could submit bits for the databank of doll pieces with the best approved by developers and making it to the actual application.

I'm sure there are plenty of art school students out there who would love to see their fantasy jewelry designs on display to the public.

FrankTrollman wrote:

Except that the Pathinder books are in their third printings. Granted the jump from the first to the second was a marketing stunt around release time, but the fact that they went to a third means that Vic Wertz does not believe his own bullshit.

End.

-Username17

Frank, read the article. He specifically talks about exceptions. And I've been clearly saying "splatbooks" all along to acknowledge the exception for the core books.

End transmission.

Hogarth, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Splat books are not different from core books. You just have books. You have books that people want to buy, you have books people don't want to buy. You have books that have strong long-term sales because they have good word of mouth, and you have books that peter out quickly because they don't.

Meatier and more popular books "last longer" and get backordered. If you are going to get a lot of backorders, it makes economic sense to do the printing in stages, because there is an equivalence point at which whatever savings you get from the printer for larger batch sizes are eaten up by the warehousing costs. For larger print runs, that equivalence point is one day of warehousing, because most printers give a maximum discount at some finite and achievable batch size.

If someone is saying that their splat books don't have continual sales to justify second printings, they are saying that their splat books get bad word of mouth. That's pretty much exactly and entirely what that means.

---

3d shit looks like shit. The world belongs to cell shaded sprites. And it always will.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:Hogarth, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Splat books are not different from core books. You just have books.

You don't understand that core books are (mostly) mandatory to own and splatbooks aren't? Then why am I arguing with a retard?

hogarth wrote:

FrankTrollman wrote:Hogarth, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Splat books are not different from core books. You just have books.

You don't understand that core books are (mostly) mandatory to own and splatbooks aren't? Then why am I arguing with a retard?

Go ahead and play a Warblade without the Book of Nine Swords.

If a splat book adds something to the game people actually want, then it will stay in demand long enough to justify multiple printings. That's why you have many printings of Street Magic for Shadowrun, a couple of printings of Defenders of the Faith for 3e D&D, and only one printing of Draconomicon Volume I: Chromatic Dragons.

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote: 3d shit looks like shit. The world belongs to cell shaded sprites. And it always will.

<3

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I've noticed that gamers really love playing Pretty Princess Dressup with their characters. Especially the boys.

That said, I think bundling the DDI with some kind of Character Visualizer application would be a great idea. I bet you could get people excited about playing your game RIGHT NOW if you let them build their character with all of these backgrounds and contacts and powers and then gave them a decent-looking 3D model that they spent an hour or so decorating.

I'm not so sure. At my table, we struggle to use miniatures that look like the characters in play, and I really do have plenty of miniatures (laid out on shelves so they're easy to see).

Hmm, how about a 'miniature maker' system, where you can mold/build your character. The hard part is really the weapon. Most players will negotiate on race and armor, but the weapon has to match, it seems.