The reason why fighters will never have nice things.

[Kaelik]

I'm genuinely confused how anyone thinks Telekinesis accurately reflects Superman's Super Strength, or how a level 10 Wizard is immune to bullets, aside from invisibility and hope, which isn't the same thing at all.

[Psychic Robot]

it's because he's doing that retarded thing where he reduces concepts to their basest forms and tries to create a connection between the two of them using rhetoric

basically what cracked.com relies on to write their articles

yes it's retarded but I didn't want to take the time to explain to him what a chucklefuck he is because that would waste everyone's time

[Count Arioch the 28th]

At least Cracked is funny.

[Prak]

at least I actually look at the stats to do something.

@novembermike, yes, I produced the minimum level. In absence of evidence that it can do anything more, I see no reason for it to have higher stats. Stop fapping over movie lines, Odin doesn't want to have to scrub your fanboy spunk out of his cloak.

[Novembermike]

at least I actually look at the stats to do something.

@novembermike, yes, I produced the minimum level. In absence of evidence that it can do anything more, I see no reason for it to have higher stats. Stop fapping over movie lines, Odin doesn't want to have to scrub your fanboy spunk out of his cloak.

That insult was kind of funny (in an "I'm laughing at you for having said it" sort of way), but even the movie logic puts him higher. If sixth level is where you'd put a top tier human (seems kind of low since a sixth level fighter still misses against a reasonable 1st level target quite a bit) then those Frost Giants are at least there. Each of the Asgardian buddies can kill them by the dozen, which puts them at least 5-6 levels above them (they are only hit by a lucky blow and can generally dispatch them with a blow or two), so at least level 11-12. The buddies, as a group, can't meaningfully hurt The Destroyer. That puts him at least 5-6 levels above them, and that's a hard "at least" since we didn't really see any upper bound on his strength. Thor is at least on the same level since he beat it one on one in a fair fight, which puts him into that same level 18+ area.

This gives us a fairly reasonable Thor who travels around with a group of friends that are nowhere near as strong as him but who are still great heroes in their own respect.

at least I actually look at the stats to do something.

I have to requote this because it's hilarious. At least you took a bunch of already bad stats, misinterpreted them even further and then used that to justify some bullshit that anyone can see is retarded? Good job I guess.

[Chamomile]

Your analysis hinges on the assumption that the frost giants are all level 6 Fighters. What on Earth makes you think this, when we have never seen them fighting any opponent who might offer a baseline or do anything except fight enemies whose level is currently called into question? Why can't they be level two Warriors?

[Novembermike]

Your analysis hinges on the assumption that the frost giants are all level 6 Fighters. What on Earth makes you think this, when we have never seen them fighting any opponent who might offer a baseline or do anything except fight enemies whose level is currently called into question? Why can't they be level two Warriors?

IIRC you literally can't have level 2 Giants of any kind. Even a first level commoner Giant would be at least a level 5 character. Assuming that they're barbarians or fighters, level 5-6 is pretty reasonable and +1 attack isn't going to change much about the calculation.

[Psychic Robot]

if frost giants were level two warriors, normal humans could probably kill them pretty easily. that wouldn't really make sense

[Prak]

at least I actually look at the stats to do something.

@novembermike, yes, I produced the minimum level. In absence of evidence that it can do anything more, I see no reason for it to have higher stats. Stop fapping over movie lines, Odin doesn't want to have to scrub your fanboy spunk out of his cloak.

That insult was kind of funny (in an "I'm laughing at you for having said it" sort of way), but even the movie logic puts him higher. If sixth level is where you'd put a top tier human (seems kind of low since a sixth level fighter still misses against a reasonable 1st level target quite a bit) then those Frost Giants are at least there. Each of the Asgardian buddies can kill them by the dozen, which puts them at least 5-6 levels above them (they are only hit by a lucky blow and can generally dispatch them with a blow or two), so at least level 11-12. The buddies, as a group, can't meaningfully hurt The Destroyer. That puts him at least 5-6 levels above them, and that's a hard "at least" since we didn't really see any upper bound on his strength. Thor is at least on the same level since he beat it one on one in a fair fight, which puts him into that same level 18+ area.

This gives us a fairly reasonable Thor who travels around with a group of friends that are nowhere near as strong as him but who are still great heroes in their own respect.

at least I actually look at the stats to do something.

I have to requote this because it's hilarious. At least you took a bunch of already bad stats, misinterpreted them even further and then used that to justify some bullshit that anyone can see is retarded? Good job I guess.

What part of my explanation was unclear?

Strength: The Destroyer's large size and construction gives it a formidable physical power, enough to bat away a car hurled at it with apparent ease.

Looking at a strength chart where I don't need to know the weight of a car off the top of my head, this gives a 35, 40 is a better round number and allows it some strength to spare in this feat.

Durability: The Destroyer is constructed of alien materials that makes it highly resistant to damage. Even when pierced by an Asgardian sword it was able to continue functioning.

Natural armour equivalent to +2 full plate can represent this just fine. If you want a better representation, call it DR X/-, I really don't give a shit. Honestly, the fact that it continues functioning after being hit with a better than normal blade (likely roughly +2) really just means it's a construct with a decent number of HP

Energy Blast: The Destroyer has an internal power that can be unleashed through an aperture in its head. When it does this, part of the facial structure retracts downward into the lower face and the energy discharge lances out in an orange-white beam. The touch of this beam is enough to blast a car to pieces or vaporise a living being.

Looking up cars in d20 modern no civilian car has more than 34 hp, which a 4-6d10 fire breath weapon is more than enough to destroy in a single hit. Most humans aren't going to even have 30 hp, so it can readily vapourize all the mooks you want.

This image

Shows that it is only slightly taller than the first story of a building, which is usually about 10', by the way. About 5-6' taller, I'd say, ie, Large size. This also means that 40 strength is more than enough, as its weight limits are multiplied by 4.

So now we go looking at things that are Large size, have 40 strength, +10 natural armour, and a ranged fire attack sufficient to destroy a car. Oh look, a Very Young Red Dragon is about right, we just boost it's strength by 19, add one point of natural armour (or some DR, if you insist), take away it's wings, and retype it construct, and it fits the bill at a CR of 5. Dragons are under-CR'd by about 2, so it's CR 7 ish without acid tests. Depowered Thor gets his ass kicked, but then proceeds to kick ass when his hammer senses his worthiness. So Thor is around level 6, give or take a level, and his hammer basically adds a level or two.

If you want to continue to disagree, tell me one f'ing thing it did that proves it needs to be represented by higher stats. Just one.

Face it, your obsessive need to claim that a bunch of characters called gods are epic by default is wrong. This is fucking D20, and more importantly, D&D. Still more importantly, the movie itself stresses the asgardians are not actually super powerful gods, just aliens with advanced technology.

edit: Oh, and on the giants, why are we assuming they're anything more than large humanoids with a handful of hit dice? I mean, other than your lack of critical thinking ability.

[Chamomile]

IIRC you literally can't have level 2 Giants of any kind. Even a first level commoner Giant would be at least a level 5 character. Assuming that they're barbarians or fighters, level 5-6 is pretty reasonable and +1 attack isn't going to change much about the calculation.

This holds true for D&D giants, sure. But when applying D&D scale to other media, forget the monster categories. They don't apply anymore. Just because they called Goliath a "giant" in the Bible doesn't mean we'd stat him as anything other than a Human with really high STR and CON, just because the Marvel Frost Giants and the D&D Frost Giants both pull from the same source material doesn't mean they're automatically the same basic type of creature. Marvel Frost Giants are called giants, but that doesn't mean they're in D&D's "giant" category.

[Maxus]

Destroyer analysis.

Don't forget in the movie it killed some Jotuns outright. I can't recall if Thor's buddies ever took a direct hit from it.

It's safe to assume the blast -does- pack a punch

[Prak]

Destroyer analysis.

Don't forget in the movie it killed some Jotuns outright. I can't recall if Thor's buddies ever took a direct hit from it.

It's safe to assume the blast -does- pack a punch

4-6d10 fire is a punch, especially when you have the cold subtype and are snuck up on. With a cone and no great reflex ability.

[Novembermike]

This holds true for D&D giants, sure. But when applying D&D scale to other media, forget the monster categories. They don't apply anymore. Just because they called Goliath a "giant" in the Bible doesn't mean we'd stat him as anything other than a Human with really high STR and CON, just because the Marvel Frost Giants and the D&D Frost Giants both pull from the same source material doesn't mean they're automatically the same basic type of creature. Marvel Frost Giants are called giants, but that doesn't mean they're in D&D's "giant" category.

The movie Jotun are at least as large as DnD Hill Giants and it looks like they're significantly larger. All of my assumptions were conservative on the lower end of the number scale.

EDIT: Marvel's site says they are 10' tall and 3 times stronger than humans pound for pound, which puts them fairly reasonably into DnD Frost Giant territory.

[Midnight_v]

Destroyer analysis.

Don't forget in the movie it killed some Jotuns outright. I can't recall if Thor's buddies ever took a direct hit from it.

It's safe to assume the blast -does- pack a punch

4-6d10 fire is a punch, especially when you have the cold subtype and are snuck up on. With a cone and no great reflex ability.

+1
He's right about this, I mean the whole thing is shown that way to illustrate the "Aliens with high-tech" not EpicUBERBBQ!@#'s or whatever people are thinking. Is it really just "Omg! They're GODS!" propelling that nonsensical though process?

[sabs]

I would have put the Jotuns at CR3-4, Thor's Friends at level 6-7, and Thor himself at 10th/11th or so.

Mjolnir is a (cursed)Hammer of Titan Strength, with some funky side abilities.

[Novembermike]

I would have put the Jotuns at CR3-4, Thor's Friends at level 6-7, and Thor himself at 10th/11th or so.

Mjolnir is a (cursed)Hammer of Titan Strength, with some funky side abilities.

Jotuns are at minimum CR7 if you use the Hill Giant for the template. CR 9 if you use the frost giant. Jotuns are physically similar to these and seem to be on roughly the same power level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#frostGiant

[sabs]

It's been a while since I played D&D
That still fits, just add 3 levels to everything else.
Thor's Friends are Named Level NPCs (level 10) and Thor is level 14 or so, with a hammer of Awesomesauce.

[...You Lost Me]

I would have put the Jotuns at CR3-4, Thor's Friends at level 6-7, and Thor himself at 10th/11th or so.

Mjolnir is a (cursed)Hammer of Titan Strength, with some funky side abilities.

Jotuns are at minimum CR7 if you use the Hill Giant for the template. CR 9 if you use the frost giant. Jotuns are physically similar to these and seem to be on roughly the same power level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#frostGiant

All right, let me say explicitly what Prak has been trying to logically argue.

Your jotuns are not hill giants in D&D. Your frost giants are not frost giants in D&D. They were not built to reflect each other.

Judge a creature's CR based off of what it does, not what its name is or some vague approximation of strength.

[virgil]

Is that not what we did (judging CR by name) with mythological creatures when gauging the level of Herakles when he fought the hydra or when Perseus fought Medusa?

[Novembermike]

Your jotuns are not hill giants in D&D. Your frost giants are not frost giants in D&D. They were not built to reflect each other.

Judge a creature's CR based off of what it does, not what its name is or some vague approximation of strength.

If there was a major difference between DnD Giants and Jotunn I'd agree, but DnD giants are a pretty good copy of them. Hell, the timing of it makes it reasonable that DnD Frost Giants are based on Marvel's Jotun, since they don't really bear much resemblance to the ancient Norse versions.

If you're arguing that groups that have the same general description, act pretty much the same and seem to have similar levels of experience are on completely different power levels, then I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Psychic Robot]

we just boost it's strength by 19

a sudden +9 boost to attack and damage rolls might raise the creature's cr by more than one just saying

[RadiantPhoenix]

If it's large, it only needs STR 35 to have the carrying capacity of a medium STR 40, huge only needs a 30.

[Juton]

Destroyer analysis.

Don't forget in the movie it killed some Jotuns outright. I can't recall if Thor's buddies ever took a direct hit from it.

It's safe to assume the blast -does- pack a punch

4-6d10 fire is a punch, especially when you have the cold subtype and are snuck up on. With a cone and no great reflex ability.

You're assuming it's not some equivalent of a save-or-die.

[Prak]

This holds true for D&D giants, sure. But when applying D&D scale to other media, forget the monster categories. They don't apply anymore. Just because they called Goliath a "giant" in the Bible doesn't mean we'd stat him as anything other than a Human with really high STR and CON, just because the Marvel Frost Giants and the D&D Frost Giants both pull from the same source material doesn't mean they're automatically the same basic type of creature. Marvel Frost Giants are called giants, but that doesn't mean they're in D&D's "giant" category.

The movie Jotun are at least as large as DnD Hill Giants and it looks like they're significantly larger. All of my assumptions were conservative on the lower end of the number scale.

EDIT: Marvel's site says they are 10' tall and 3 times stronger than humans pound for pound, which puts them fairly reasonably into DnD Frost Giant territory.

Actual numbers, cool. So frost giants have a heavy load of 300 pounds (average human Str 10, heavy load 100#). That means, accounting for large size (300/2, 150), Marvel frost giants have a strength of...13. So, Large size, +2 str, cold subtype... yeah, I'm thinking Marvel frost giants can totally be level two warriors. In the lack of further numbers.

If you're arguing that groups that have the same general description, act pretty much the same and seem to have similar levels of experience are on completely different power levels, then I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Then there's the door, because, yes, that's about what we're saying. The Marvel site, which you yourself brought up, says that their frost giants are three times as strong as humans. D&D Hill Giants are 16 times as strong as humans (25 str, large size, heavy load 1600#). D&D frost giants are 28 times as strong as humans (29 str, large size, heavy load 2800#).

If it's large, it only needs STR 35 to have the carrying capacity of a medium STR 40, huge only needs a 30.

I know, I was being generous.

You're assuming it's not some equivalent of a save-or-die.

Yep, I totally am. My reasoning is this, if it were a disintegrate effect, then it would disintegrate a car just as easily (more so, actually) as a human, which is not what the wiki says. If it were any other save or die, say, Finger of Death, then it couldn't affect the car, Shatter, couldn't affect the human. If it's Implosion, then it doesn't vapourize a human, it turns them into a squishy mess. And if it's pretty much sole purpose is fighting frost giants, a fire breath weapon does a pretty damn good job.

[Novembermike]

Actual numbers, cool. So frost giants have a heavy load of 300 pounds (average human Str 10, heavy load 100#). That means, accounting for large size (300/2, 150), Marvel frost giants have a strength of...13. So, Large size, +2 str, cold subtype... yeah, I'm thinking Marvel frost giants can totally be level two warriors. In the lack of further numbers.

They're 10 feet tall, built like power lifters, they're three times as dense as humans and three times as strong. We're looking at 2000+ lbs of superhumanly strong muscle. Hell, normal DnD giants are built on the assumption that they're just 10 feet tall and fat, these guys are the same height, heavier and stronger.

Then there's the door, because, yes, that's about what we're saying. The Marvel site, which you yourself brought up, says that their frost giants are three times as strong as humans. D&D Hill Giants are 16 times as strong as humans (25 str, large size, heavy load 1600#). D&D frost giants are 28 times as strong as humans (29 str, large size, heavy load 2800#).

Again, three times as strong pound for pound. If we assume that these guys are 2000 lbs (fairly conservative) and 3 times as strong as a human pound for pound, and the average human is 150 lbs and strength 10, then we're looking at these guys being around 40x stronger than humans.